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Old 2010-08-21, 18:24   Link #481
Renall
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I think it might help, Oliver, if you outlined your detailed argument about the gold metaphor from the Tea Party a bit the way you did for me. It might explain better what you're getting at with the nature of the episode.

It's worth noting that Will himself rebels. Of all the characters in Chiru, Will has felt the closest to a "reader stand-in." I suppose Erika too, if we associate Erika with a certain kind of "undesirable" reader. Will could be seen as either another kind of "undesirable" reader (though nowhere near Erika's level), or as the "right" kind of reader. In either case, we have both of them being played with by Bernkastel out of deliberate cruelty and indecipherable motive.

To accept Bern herself (whether one is accepting her facts or not) is to essentially buy the idea that the writer was playing with you out of boredom, as Bern herself does. To say the story has meaning somehow is to side with Battler. The problem, of course, is that the weight of the evidence appears to throw in against Battler... but if he didn't have a grand turnaround in store for ep8, I guess there wouldn't be much tension to it.
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Old 2010-08-21, 18:27   Link #482
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Originally Posted by Oliver View Post
A "knowingly evil act" would be committed not towards the characters (that's their job after all) but towards the readers who expected a story that would actually, you know, hold some ideals, and was presented initially as such.
Presented as how? R07 did say long ago Umineko would not necessarily have a happy end. The possibility of kakeras not actually existing, but being fiction was there since EP4. People just wanted to assume they worked like in Higurashi.

Also, additionally, I think the ending of EP7 more or so hinted that some degree of a happy end could be had. Battler did tell Ange this one wouldn't be a sad nor a painful story, and that any value judgement would have to come from her (i.e. the reader). There was also the bit with Will and Lyon saying they believed Beatrice could get a happy end, which is basically R07 telling his readers to wait and see how things unfold in EP8. However, there's also the Red from Bern saying this story wouldn't have a happy end, which is basically there to tell you, there won't be a perfect end.
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Old 2010-08-21, 18:30   Link #483
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oliver View Post
A "knowingly evil act" would be committed not towards the characters (that's their job after all) but towards the readers who expected a story that would actually, you know, hold some ideals, and was presented initially as such.
And what ideals are that suppossed to be, might you elaborate?
Are you referring solely to the dreadful 'love conquers all' 純愛 (pure love) idea of modern Japanese popculture, which I myself despise?! Because for me Umineko never was about 'love as the savior of all', but just about how perception can change things around ...

I don't want a story that holds ideals, I want a story that presents me with hard facts about a tragedy which I can deduce. In the end they are all dead and it depends on them if I feel sad for them or not.
I'm on Bern's side for that one...I don't want an absolute happy end.
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Old 2010-08-21, 18:47   Link #484
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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
I think it might help, Oliver, if you outlined your detailed argument about the gold metaphor from the Tea Party a bit the way you did for me. It might explain better what you're getting at with the nature of the episode.
Probably. Well, here it is.

Narration in Ep7 says that gold is the crystal of magical power manifested in the material world. This is given pretty much literally by Beatrice-3 herself as well. This could be taken many ways, after all, gold is a loaded symbol with many meanings. But later on, once we start going through the rampage story, it is said quite directly, that monetary value of gold is magic. That if you have enough money, you can convince anyone to behave in any fashion desired, and left uncontrolled it does nothing but cloud people's minds, bringing them to commit atrocities they could never even imagine otherwise.

At the very same time, the notion of the magic of "two people creating a world" is reiterated multiple times across the episode. And herein lies my point.

The very idea of "love" as it exists in all cultures I'm aware of that define it, is that some things cannot ever possibly be bought. Acceptance is given freely of own will or is of no value. It cannot be coaxed out, cannot be traded for, and is for this reason that it is treasured more than the entire resources of a civilization, throughout history and for the foreseeable history to come, while humans are still human. This is why mutual love and acceptance is a small everyday miracle -- it requires two one-sided loves to suddenly match, this is why it's so hard to do for everyone even if for most people it usually happens at least once in their lives.

That Beatrice's power is at one moment said to be being accepted by others with two people making up a world, bringing imagination up to the level of truth through feeling and connection, and in the next moment equated to metallic gold and greed is for this reason supremely offensive to anyone who holds "love" as an ideal. It tarnishes not just Beatrice, or, say, Maria who joins in on that world, but the entire cast. Let alone the author who produced this blasphemy.

Is there anything else you hold dear? Well, take a closer look at Episode 7, you'll probably find it tried to step on that as well. If you still didn't get it, here, have a character who is doing a heroic sacrifice fail, just for demonstration purposes.

Sure, that's how witches are supposed to behave. But authors who do that sort of thing cater only to a very narrow crowd of depressed nihilists.

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It's worth noting that Will himself rebels. Of all the characters in Chiru, Will has felt the closest to a "reader stand-in." I suppose Erika too, if we associate Erika with a certain kind of "undesirable" reader. Will could be seen as either another kind of "undesirable" reader (though nowhere near Erika's level), or as the "right" kind of reader. In either case, we have both of them being played with by Bernkastel out of deliberate cruelty and indecipherable motive.
Precisely.

Then Bernkastel leaves the board and just knocks both his piece and the piece of Leon he has been protecting over like they're nothing.

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I don't want a story that holds ideals, I want a story that presents me with hard facts about a tragedy which I can deduce. In the end they are all dead and it depends on them if I feel sad for them or not.
I'm on Bern's side for that one...I don't want an absolute happy end.
Tell me then, why are you reading a story, and not police reports? Mind you, the ideal you profess here is reason. Have fun trying to convince yourself that the Kyrie Rampage makes sense, unless you already did.
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Old 2010-08-21, 19:04   Link #485
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From the summaries it looks like you can add Saint Mary, logic, heroism, shippers, people who don't believe in ghost stories and people who didn't like Matsuribayashi to the list of "Things attacked by EP7".
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Old 2010-08-21, 19:17   Link #486
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Originally Posted by Oliver View Post
*Snip*
This pretty much sums up what I feel about all these theories about Kinzo molesting his own child, Shakanon, and everything else.

The problem with how I feel is that I cannot provide a logical explanation. Kinzo raping his child is a sure way of producing Beato-3. Can I provide another reason why there is a Beato-3? No, I can't, because Love isn't enough. I can keep struggling, sure, but if I can't offer another explanation, my love eventually dwindles and I become bitter and think the whole entire cast and the author can go fuck themselves, because they're obviously just trolling me and that I shouldn't waste my time.

Which I haven't done because I have been putting way too much faith in these characters. No, I don't believe Rosa's a fucking bitch, I believe she's realized her mistake by the end of EP2. No, I don't believe Eva is the culprit of episode 3. I don't believe Shanon's a manipulative bitch, and I don't believe Kanon's cross dressing and putting on a fake pair.

But something is going to give. One character of the cast is going to be the culprit, there isn't anything that can prevent that. What I can believe that what their doing can be due to love, and all those negative things that are spawned because of it (envy, lust, jealousy, etc). So I won't be playing episode 8 until I can find a truth that fits, and see if I'm right or not. Sure, I'll probably be the last one to the finish line- hell, I may be entirely wrong- but I'm not going to just cheat by stealing the teacher's answer key and writing it down on paper.

...My line of thinking is way too much like Battler's.

Damn it, damn it, damn it...
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Old 2010-08-21, 19:18   Link #487
Oliver
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Originally Posted by Erisette View Post
From the summaries it looks like you can add Saint Mary, logic, heroism, shippers, people who don't believe in ghost stories and people who didn't like Matsuribayashi to the list of "Things attacked by EP7".
I listed most of these a few posts earlier, but I missed Saint Mary, probably because I'm not Catholic.

But that is precisely my argument. I will even add that "the next game is for Ange" in the end is nothing random. Just like it takes first establishing Ange as a likeable character and then turning her into hamburgers to make Battler actually start thinking -- and then doing the same to Beatrice, after she has been rendered as meek and innocent as possible, to make Battler have an epiphany -- so Episode 7 aims to do the same to the readers.

Only the readers don't have a little sister you could turn into mincemeat to motivate them, so I guess the author has to take whatever's available.
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Old 2010-08-21, 19:56   Link #488
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Originally Posted by Oliver View Post
That Beatrice's power is at one moment said to be being accepted by others with two people making up a world, bringing imagination up to the level of truth through feeling and connection, and in the next moment equated to metallic gold and greed is for this reason supremely offensive to anyone who holds "love" as an ideal. It tarnishes not just Beatrice, or, say, Maria who joins in on that world, but the entire cast. Let alone the author who produced this blasphemy.
But it never says that in any of those games. Just because you hold love as the ultimate ideal does not mean anything in the long run, especially if you are dealing with murder.
It is not 'Beatrice's power' which is equated with one or the other, it is magic which is handled that way. The Golde Witch Beatrice is just an image, created by the inhabitants of that island, who never existed in the first place. Magic has so many different sides within Umineko, I don't understand why you take so much offense in it being likened to the influence that gold has on people.

As much as your definition of love as the 'greates power of all' might be admirable, it isn't the only powerful influence in the world and most people would choose money or fame over love...so if you equal magic to power, then of course that much gold would be your key to magical powers.

Quote:
Sure, that's how witches are supposed to behave. But authors who do that sort of thing cater only to a very narrow crowd of depressed nihilists.
What is happening here is called detective and mystery fiction and while it might be something that has mostly died out in the west in a classical sense, it is very much alive and kicking in Japan. If you don't like what you get, then maybe Umineko just isn't your kind of genre.
Engaging in a murder mystery and expecting it to get a 純愛-plot like most works by Key is just wrong ....

Quote:
Tell me then, why are you reading a story, and not police reports? Mind you, the ideal you profess here is reason. Have fun trying to convince yourself that the Kyrie Rampage makes sense, unless you already did.
If Kyrie was pressured in any way into commiting those deeds it would make perfect sense. Considering her sisters behaviour it wouldn't even be that hard to believe at all that Kyrie had similar traits...people can be quite cold if it comes to personal well-being.
And maybe she was saying those things to Eva, because she knew that if Eva survived it would be the only way to make her care for Ange. There are so many ways to explain what she did without making it a senseless rampage.

This has nothing to do with cold-blooded behaviour or just being interested in facts. But this is still at least part murder mystery and in murder you CAN'T rely on love, because as there are 愛がなければ視えないもの, there are 愛があるから視えないもの.
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Old 2010-08-21, 20:07   Link #489
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What is happening here is called detective and mystery fiction and while it might be something that has mostly died out in the west in a classical sense, it is very much alive and kicking in Japan. If you don't like what you get, then maybe Umineko just isn't your kind of genre.
Funny, and what genre is that? Because it sure looks like a fantasy-romance to me after ep6, not a detective-based murder mystery...
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Old 2010-08-21, 20:07   Link #490
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This is quite a lot of points I guess.
But isn't that a huge risk from Ryukishi's pov?
If I get what you say right, arc 7's main point is to fire you up by offending you and absolutely wanting to prove what we're told is wrong or at the very least incomplete and unproperly connected.
That seems to come with the risk of insulting fans, many of them. Let's list the possible reactions assuming you're right.
Think Arc 7 is mostly lies, loves the idea - These fans will be pleased. Think Ryukishi is genius.
Think Arc 7 is mostly lies, hates the idea - These fans won't be pleased. Think Ryukishi is a troll.
Think Arc 7 is the truth, loves the idea - These fans will be insulted/unpleased once arc 8 comes out and crush Arc 7.
Think Arc 7 is the truth, hates the idea - These fans will likely mostly stop caring about Umineko.

I used to think Ryukishi was a great author and objected to most theories that would make it into a bad story. Now I'm in doubt, and because of that doubt I'm basically putting on hold my trust in Umineko/Ryukishi.

Sure, even if all the points you said are right, it goes with the assumption that the real truth is a lot more satisfying. But that's precisely why I think Ryukishi's move is a stupid one. How can he decides the real truth is really satisfying? By doing that he's basically claiming his story is good objectively. If any final answer doesn't live up to our expectations of satisfying, then it'll be hard to see Ryukishi as anything else then a writer who's really full of himself.

After all the time he spent insulting readers, it almost feel like he's proclaiming in red Umineko is a good story with satisfying answers and then say So if you don't like it you're a bad reader. So yeah, to me everything points out that Ryukishi is ridiculously arrogant about the worth of his story.

I just can't help but feel the story will have many parts of questionable satisfaction and rather then trying to make them really satisfying Ryukishi will continue to insist that anyone who feels so is a bad reader.

It feels like a lover who says "My love is absolute and anyone who question it, is stupid, even if I keep insulting the ones I'm supposed to love".

To resume it very simply, gradually it feels Ryukishi is turning into some sort of "elitist writer". I don't think that's a very bright move for an author who's fans are mostly internet otakus. It feels like he's starting his religious where we have to have absolute faith in him and where people who lose faith due to unsatisfaction are branded as heretics and spit on. He wants us to have almost blind faith in him, and then makes fun of us for being blind.

As I said earlier, I don't get Ryukishi anymore.
I sorta still want to believe the real truth is more satisfying, but there's nothing anymore left in Umineko that leaves me serious hopes that it's really really satisfying. Trusting someone's arrogance was never a very good idea to me.
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Old 2010-08-21, 20:12   Link #491
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I'd be inclined to share your upset if not for that Battler epilogue. I think that was too restrained to be there if he's got some spiraling ego problem.
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Old 2010-08-21, 20:25   Link #492
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Originally Posted by UsagiTenpura View Post
This is quite a lot of points I guess.
But isn't that a huge risk from Ryukishi's pov?
If I get what you say right, arc 7's main point is to fire you up by offending you and absolutely wanting to prove what we're told is wrong or at the very least incomplete and unproperly connected.
That seems to come with the risk of insulting fans, many of them. Let's list the possible reactions assuming you're right.
Think Arc 7 is mostly lies, loves the idea - These fans will be pleased. Think Ryukishi is genius.
Think Arc 7 is mostly lies, hates the idea - These fans won't be pleased. Think Ryukishi is a troll.
Think Arc 7 is the truth, loves the idea - These fans will be insulted/unpleased once arc 8 comes out and crush Arc 7.
Think Arc 7 is the truth, hates the idea - These fans will likely mostly stop caring about Umineko.

I used to think Ryukishi was a great author and objected to most theories that would make it into a bad story. Now I'm in doubt, and because of that doubt I'm basically putting on hold my trust in Umineko/Ryukishi.

Sure, even if all the points you said are right, it goes with the assumption that the real truth is a lot more satisfying. But that's precisely why I think Ryukishi's move is a stupid one. How can he decides the real truth is really satisfying? By doing that he's basically claiming his story is good objectively. If any final answer doesn't live up to our expectations of satisfying, then it'll be hard to see Ryukishi as anything else then a writer who's really full of himself.

After all the time he spent insulting readers, it almost feel like he's proclaiming in red Umineko is a good story with satisfying answers and then say So if you don't like it you're a bad reader. So yeah, to me everything points out that Ryukishi is ridiculously arrogant about the worth of his story.

I just can't help but feel the story will have many parts of questionable satisfaction and rather then trying to make them really satisfying Ryukishi will continue to insist that anyone who feels so is a bad reader.

It feels like a lover who says "My love is absolute and anyone who question it, is stupid, even if I keep insulting the ones I'm supposed to love".

To resume it very simply, gradually it feels Ryukishi is turning into some sort of "elitist writer". I don't think that's a very bright move for an author who's fans are mostly internet otakus. It feels like he's starting his religious where we have to have absolute faith in him and where people who lose faith due to unsatisfaction are branded as heretics and spit on. He wants us to have almost blind faith in him, and then makes fun of us for being blind.

As I said earlier, I don't get Ryukishi anymore.
I sorta still want to believe the real truth is more satisfying, but there's nothing anymore left in Umineko that leaves me serious hopes that it's really really satisfying. Trusting someone's arrogance was never a very good idea to me.
I think that kind of attitude was explicitly stated with Featherine/Hachijo Tohya in Episode 6.

Also, I think the reason why Ryukishi is taking that stance is a challenge to his readers to stand up and start thinking, I know I personally interpreted that lecture on the quality of readers in Episode 6 as a challenge to myself, and got serious as a reader, as up until that point I hardly ever bothered with re-rereading books I had already gone through.

I think that even if this is a troll on Ryukishi's part, I think the intent is more to tell us something like :

"While I am encouraging you to think, don't get ahead of yourselves. The one telling this story isn't you, it's me, and some kind of half-cocked theory proclaimed after a few weeks of internet debate isn't going to cut it as a proper answer to this tale."

If we interpret this as Ryukishi trying to force his readers to become stronger, as a parallel to Battler's mental growth throughout the meta story with how Beato would go easy, then up the difficult as he progressed, it makes sense.

Maybe Ryukishi thinks that Umineko, as completely weird and indecipherable as it is, is still the equivalent of going easy on us?

If he still has sequels up his sleeve, mysteries to tell, and stories to weave, then it's only logical that he'd up the difficulty to keep pace with our own growth as readers.

Sure it's condescending as hell, but what lesson isn't inherently condescending by it's very nature? If we can't handle the likes of Umineko, then how are we supposed to be able to work through Ryukishi's later works?
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Old 2010-08-21, 20:28   Link #493
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Funny, and what genre is that? Because it sure looks like a fantasy-romance to me after ep6, not a detective-based murder mystery...
I assume your not really knowledgable about Japanese detective fiction? This is not meant as an insult, mainly as a statement, because it is something I observed with many people.
There is nothing wrong with that, but many people seem to hold expectations for this story that are very much beside the point of the original genre. Of course it depends wether Ryukishi plans to write according to basic rules or not...but so far he has.

Having fantasy aspects included into your story does not lessen the stories status as a detective mystery. Look up authors like Kyougoku Natsuhiko, Shimada Souji or Nikkaido Reito among others. They all involve supernatural entities or events into their novels (the one more than the other), be it vindictive wizards, hommunculi, youkai or occult ceremonies to raise demons and in the end the solution always comes down to a single culprit causing a chain of tragedy, which was all covered up by a myth, legend or rumor.

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After all the time he spent insulting readers, it almost feel like he's proclaiming in red Umineko is a good story with satisfying answers and then say So if you don't like it you're a bad reader. So yeah, to me everything points out that Ryukishi is ridiculously arrogant about the worth of his story.
I don't know where he is supposed to have implied that?
He as the author simply has to give a direction towards a solution sometime now, because we are nearing the end. It was clear from the beginning that not all people could be satisfied, because not all people can come to the same conclusion.
This is not about arrogance, this is about giving closure to a story. You are not forced to like any of the events, but you can judge them by their worth and in a detective story the worth is defined (among other things) by if it was possible to get the solution or not.

Like somebody said, there has to be a solution and there has to be a culprit.
If you don't like that, Ryukishi has given you a key towards that (which I partly curse him for) see everything through love and transform it into something happy.
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Old 2010-08-21, 20:32   Link #494
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Is there anything else you hold dear? Well, take a closer look at Episode 7, you'll probably find it tried to step on that as well. If you still didn't get it, here, have a character who is doing a heroic sacrifice fail, just for demonstration purposes.
The issue here is, I believe, what you believe love is. If my interpretation is not wrong, and it may be, you seem to believe that love (in Umineko, at the very least) means that all people are actually sympathetic, and that none of them would do anything evil - at least not terribly evil. And that, indeed, is one possible interpretation.

However, I believe Umineko has been giving us a different definition of love. Love in Umineko, I believe, refers to try to understand people despite their actions. In fact, I believe this was explained to a large extent in EP4 with 3 different examples - all of them witnessed by Ange. One of them is Maria's life and the impact Rosa had on it. At first glance, Maria is a pitiable child who barely has any happiness in her life. Yet, Maria herself said she didn't think of her life as such. Also, Rosa was portrayed as a terrible mother and person, in fact, Rosa herself thought of herself as such, yet, once again, in countless occasions (and this is not limited to EP4) Maria has made it clear she loves her mother no matter what, and she doesn't think of her as a bad mother. Of course, EP4 also made it clear that, pushed up to a certain extent, Maria can actually harbour feelings of resentment. But, in the end, once again, this gives us a glance at people's hearts. In addition to this, we've had enough info about Rosa. We know she was deeply hurt when her husband left her, and she's been trying to fill that void. We've also seen she also highly regrets the way she treats Maria, since she tends to end up in tears after she abuses her. All the same, this doesn't change the things she has done and keeps doing. However, we get to understand Rosa.

We also got 2 more examples which are Eva and Kasumi. In fact, in the anime, if you remember the scene with Ange vs Kasumi took an entire episode. Why would they use an entire episode just for that scene? For 2 reasons: 1) It explains how magic works, 2) It explains "the love approach". If you remember, Eva and Ange's relationship wasn't the best. In fact, it was mutual disdain. The reason behind this was explained to some extent in "The Witches Tanabata" along with the fact Eva had to live with the burden of being treated like a criminal who murdered her own family, in addition to the fact that she had lost everything she had once held dear. Does this changes all the things she did to Ange? No. But it does make her more understandable. Now, Kasumi. She basically was one huge bitch. However, we got to know all the things she had gone through ever since Kyrie had left the family. She basically lost her freedom. Does this change the fact she's a bitch? No, but once again, the background we're given makes her understandable.

This is what I believe looking at things with love means. It doesn't mean turning people into saints, but accepting them as they are and understanding their circumstances. This can be done with Kinzo and with Yasu as well. And, I'm sure, once we get further characterisation, we'll be able to do this with Rudolph and Kyrie as well.
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Old 2010-08-21, 20:36   Link #495
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Originally Posted by UsagiTenpura View Post
To resume it very simply, gradually it feels Ryukishi is turning into some sort of "elitist writer". I don't think that's a very bright move for an author who's fans are mostly internet otakus. It feels like he's starting his religious where we have to have absolute faith in him and where people who lose faith due to unsatisfaction are branded as heretics and spit on. He wants us to have almost blind faith in him, and then makes fun of us for being blind.

As I said earlier, I don't get Ryukishi anymore.
I sorta still want to believe the real truth is more satisfying, but there's nothing anymore left in Umineko that leaves me serious hopes that it's really really satisfying. Trusting someone's arrogance was never a very good idea to me.
OMG the author decides the development of his own story for himself? NO WAY! How arrogant indeed!

Seriously, I don't know what exactly you want to convey with the assumption that he's becoming an elitist writer (whatever that may be), but for me a good writer is someone who writes because who wants to write and not because he wants to be adored for it. And these are actually the ones I tend to like because it seems unaltered and honest and I don't want something that pleases as many readers as possible, I want something realistic.

Anyone is free to say if he does not like what an author does, but he can't prescribe what he has to do. That would not be the author's story, that would be your story, so write one for yourself if you are unsatisfied.

This does not mean I love Umineko or basically anything that has to do with my interests to an extent of 100%, but I would not dare to say that the author did something wrong in that cases, since there is no right or wrong concerning these aspects.
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Old 2010-08-21, 21:06   Link #496
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Originally Posted by chounokoe View Post
I assume your not really knowledgable about Japanese detective fiction? This is not meant as an insult, mainly as a statement, because it is something I observed with many people.
There is nothing wrong with that, but many people seem to hold expectations for this story that are very much beside the point of the original genre. Of course it depends wether Ryukishi plans to write according to basic rules or not...but so far he has.
I don't think you're getting the point they're making at all. You can't hide behind genre as an excuse for why bad writing decisions are made. But I don't even think that's what's going on, as I don't think he's simply writing to genre conventions. I also know for a fact that he's far more versed in classical and western mystery than mere lip service. And I think he's very explicitly manipulating conventions from all of them.

There's also the part, from ep1, right at the start, where Kyrie calls romances harder mysteries to solve than detective stories. If that's not enough to call into confusion the genre issues, I don't know what is.

You seem very convinced of your own superior knowledge of genre, but I don't think ryukishi has ever intended with Umineko to do anything but twist genre as much as he's allowed. Anti-Fantasy vs. Anti-Mystery was his opening shot, after all.
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Old 2010-08-21, 21:15   Link #497
Used Can
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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
There's also the part, from ep1, right at the start, where Kyrie calls romances harder mysteries to solve than detective stories.
Even if it is romance with some mystery... since when does that equate to this story getting a Disney end (or any sort of happy end)?
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Old 2010-08-21, 21:18   Link #498
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Originally Posted by Used Can View Post
Even if it is romance with some mystery... since when does that equate to this story getting a Disney end (or any sort of happy end)?
Uh, you seem to be the only one who thinks that.

Apparently you have a very narrow understanding of what could constitute a happy ending. Oliver's talk of ideals actually provides a way in which everyone could die and the ending could still be "happy."
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Old 2010-08-21, 21:25   Link #499
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
You seem very convinced of your own superior knowledge of genre, but I don't think ryukishi has ever intended with Umineko to do anything but twist genre as much as he's allowed. Anti-Fantasy vs. Anti-Mystery was his opening shot, after all.
Then again, Ryukishi never thought we would need so much help solving the Epitaph. Or the murders. Or anything really.

He shoved the 'Without love' quote in our faces, and here we are pointing the fingers at certain characters because it fits. The fact is we've been chiseling the pieces of the story and making them fit- and instead of making a masterpiece like one of Picasso's works, we're making a My Little (Death Metal) Pony.
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Old 2010-08-21, 21:27   Link #500
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I've said this before, but it's very difficult to know how easy your own puzzle is. I had this experience a lot running D&D campaigns. Things that seemed very clear to me were only such because I was the one who came up with it. Even if I imagined there was a rational, logical way to think through to the answer, it only seemed obvious to me because of the way I come to think about things. Misjudge that, and suddenly you're wondering why nobody can figure out your awesome trick when it seems "so obvious."

People aren't stupid, but everybody's brains work differently.
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