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Old 2010-08-23, 09:08   Link #8701
Kamui4356
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MeoTwister5 View Post
My point being that the police, I assume, did what they had to do to stop all of it, but despite that there are actually some groups here in the Philippines who conveniently try to defend the rights of the criminal (which is correct when made in context to criminal rights) yet forget that the rights of those whose lives he put in danger (which is wrong) and thus say nothing in the matter of victim's rights.

It only becomes an issue when the rights of the criminal override the rights of the victims and the debate switches to defending the criminals right's over that of the victims whose rights he has infringed upon. In the end the issue becomes muddled and while the criminals (dead or alive) and their defenders get their shot in the limelight, even the law and the media forget to focus on those who have really suffered in the tragedy because in the end, no amount of personal grievances justifies taking innocent lives.

Honestly one has to live in this country to see the amount of pro-human rights whackjobs who gives human rights a bad name. Human rights of the innocent should always be taken into consideration first before a criminal's.
Victims rights is a meaningless appeal to emotions fallacy intended to make supporting the subversion of things like due process sound more appealing. Any rights that were violated during the commission of the crime are part of the reason the criminal is arrested and put on trial in the first place. What further rights does a victim have? It's not popular, and it sounds harsh, which is why the whole victims rights shit generally goes unchallenged in a public discussion, but it's true.

Also, as my edit to my post said, what does that have to do with anything here? This seemed to be a straight forward operation.
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Old 2010-08-23, 09:26   Link #8702
MeoTwister5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kamui4356 View Post
Victims rights is a meaningless appeal to emotions fallacy intended to make supporting the subversion of things like due process sound more appealing. Any rights that were violated during the commission of the crime are part of the reason the criminal is arrested and put on trial in the first place. What further rights does a victim have? It's not popular, and it sounds harsh, which is why the whole victims rights shit generally goes unchallenged in a public discussion, but it's true.

Also, as my edit to my post said, what does that have to do with anything here? This seemed to be a straight forward operation.
Ok I think we're not connecting here.

My point, again, is that there are certain civil society groups here in the Philippines that have a tendency to focus SOLELY on the criminal's rights while outright ignoring the rights of victims. Whether or not the operation is made in proper judgment or not is besides the point because these groups have, in the past, have rampaged on the media and in whatever other outlets accusing the police of excessive force, murder and whatnot without inspecting the facts and again without taking into consideration the greater good of the parties involved.

That is not to say that we should ignore the rights of suspects (I'll use that rather than criminals for the sake of doubt) because a fair society must always treat everyone fairly under the court of law, but these antics have a tendency to sway not only public opinion but judiciary opinion (the Philippines does not use a judgment by peers but on a single judge) on the matter at hand which GREATLY affects the objectivity of the legal process.

The rights that are (indirectly) infringed for the victims is impartiality in due process because all these noise creates bias for a system that's already more prone to bias than a trial by jury (again we only have a single judge rendering verdict). While the criminal no longer affects the outcome much, it's the noise civil society who are too caught in tunnel vision that has the capacity to sway the legal process away for impartiality and objectivity into, as you put it, appeals to emotion.

Objectively speaking the same could be applied to any sort of public noise aimed at legal proceedings, whether it be pro-accuser or pro-accused. In the end, my point in all of this is that the narrow minded views that get too much publicity have a capacity for a very large impact in high profile legal proceedings, and given the very questionable track record of the Philippines National Police regarding human rights and due process, this will affect this case even more. I expect this case to be the headline tomorrow in the Philippine Daily Inquirer, and considering that people in this country stage rallies at the drop of a hat, I also expect a lot of hullabaloo from parties from every sector as well as opportunistic politicians that will further muddle an issue that isn't already clear from the getgo.

This is going to be a field day for the media rags and a headache for P-Noy no doubt.
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Old 2010-08-23, 10:06   Link #8703
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Originally Posted by Marcus H. View Post
Update on that. There are four people injured and the number of people killed is still uncertain.
Aaaand the culprit is dead.
Total of 25 hostages taken earlier in the day. Mendoza then released nine: two women, three children, a diabetic man and three Filipinos.

The Filipino driver escaped moments before police surrounded the bus after hearing gunshots.

The 15 remaining on board were all tourists from Hong Kong. Six are confirmed dead. There are seven survivors. Status of remaining two not yet confirmed.

Mendoza was reportedly among five officers charged in 2008 with robbery, extortion and grave threats, after a Manila hotel chef filed a complaint alleging that Mendoza falsely accused him of using drugs to extort money. Mendoza was fired from the police force last year.
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Old 2010-08-23, 10:18   Link #8704
AnimeTheme
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I am a local citizen in Hong Kong. I saw the live reporting on TV, and my emotion turned from sadness to extreme anger. What the FXXK were these police doing!?!? That was the WORST rescue scene I could imagine! Don't tell me they are SWATs or some kind of SDU. Using a rope to pull the main door!? Wasting half an hour using some stupid hammers hitting the windows with no progress, and finally, what? They "forgot" they could just use the escape door!? Even the boy scouts could do better!
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Old 2010-08-23, 10:57   Link #8705
MeoTwister5
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The PNP isn't exactly the most competent police force on the planet. Reminds me of that time a few years back when they botched a hostage rescue attempt on the LRT line on some crazy dude taking a baby hostage with a knife. When the man started making cuts on the baby's throat they all opened fire, killing the guy and the baby on the spot.

The entire police force that handled the scene were fired.

Of course it's not to say that they didn't try. Buses in this country are like metal coffins with wheels. You'd be lucky if you could get half the opening open from any side. Trying to sneakily open any of the windows or exits would likely have made a creaking sound that would have alerted the guy.
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Old 2010-08-23, 11:29   Link #8706
AnimeTheme
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MeoTwister5 View Post
Of course it's not to say that they didn't try. Buses in this country are like metal coffins with wheels. You'd be lucky if you could get half the opening open from any side. Trying to sneakily open any of the windows or exits would likely have made a creaking sound that would have alerted the guy.
The point is, they were not trying to "sneakily" doing so. They were actually taking some brute-force actions. They used hammers to smash the windows, a rope to pull the main the door, and all ended in vain. And after half an hour of meaningless actions... they "remembered" that they could just use the escape door! If it were a movie, this would definitely make me ROFL...
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Old 2010-08-23, 13:03   Link #8707
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Some video footage of the storming.


Aftermath.
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Old 2010-08-23, 13:41   Link #8708
AnimeTheme
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9 people dead now...

The more I look at the whole incident, the more I think that there might be some kind of conspiracy behind the story. I don't think the Philippines police want to give the gunman any chance to surrender and walk out alive...
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Old 2010-08-23, 13:56   Link #8709
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Wow. That's tragic. Did they say why the gunman did what he did or what his punshiment is?
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Old 2010-08-23, 14:54   Link #8710
kaizerknight01
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The police failed .......... miserably there was no plan of action, in both strategic and tactical perspective , the authorities failed to control and contain the situation ... and 9 people died and couple more injured because of the police's lack of training and professionalism

by the way i checked the youtube comments it's getting nasty and it disgust me that its turning being hi jacked into derogatory racial insults
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Old 2010-08-23, 15:46   Link #8711
Anh_Minh
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AnimeTheme View Post
9 people dead now...

The more I look at the whole incident, the more I think that there might be some kind of conspiracy behind the story. I don't think the Philippines police want to give the gunman any chance to surrender and walk out alive...
To me, it mostly looked like they didn't want to go in. I don't blame them. I wouldn't want to face a guy with a gun either.
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Old 2010-08-23, 15:53   Link #8712
Roger Rambo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by killer3000ad View Post
Some video footage of the storming.
Normally when I think of storming I think of people moving at a fast pace.


Jesus Christ. This is going to go into the books as how not to handle this kind of fucking situation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
I don't blame them. I wouldn't want to face a guy with a gun either.
But somebody has to be able to do that when there are guys with guns who need to be stopped from doing stuff like this.

Though I'll be clear that I don't take this as some kind of moral failure on the part of the cops. Anybody would be afraid of rushing into a cramped space where there was a prepared gunman with a high capacity weapon. The distinction that I'm seeing is that these guys probably didn't receive the proper training/discipline and leadership which is needed to effectively carry out these kind of missions. Quite frankly speaking, regular people just plain suck at fighting. To put it frankly, you need to mentally reprogram people in order for them to cope with fear and effectively fight.

There's a reason why military drill instructions act in such a seemingly erratic and psychotic manner.

Last edited by Roger Rambo; 2010-08-23 at 16:09.
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Old 2010-08-23, 16:03   Link #8713
killer3000ad
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Rambo View Post
Normally when I think of storming I think of people moving at a fast pace.


Jesus Christ. This is going to go into the books as how not to handle this kind of fucking situation.
I know man it's almost comical, all it needs is Benny Hill music. At 1.48 of the first vid, the cops try throwing something into the bus through a hole in the window, misses and falls on to the ground. They try 2 more times to get the glowstick (wtf) into the broken window. Then at 2.06 a cop tries swinging a sledgehammer at the door and he ends up losing the hammer. Not discounting the entire snail's pace of the operation.........
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Old 2010-08-23, 17:31   Link #8714
Tiberium Wolf
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WTH? Why the fuck so many cops go near a bus where the hijacker can see all around him. They were asking for the hostages to be shoot! Besides took them ages to get into the bus. They might as well as filled the bus with holes and killed all hostages.
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Old 2010-08-23, 18:12   Link #8715
Johnny
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I was suppose to go to the hospital today, but thankfully something came up and I didn't get stuck in this massive highway shutdown this morning. Awesome crash, uh I mean poor guy...
http://www.wdtn.com/dpp/news/video%3...caught-on-tape
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Old 2010-08-23, 18:17   Link #8716
Yu Ominae
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IIRC, the hijacker aka Senior Inspector Rolando Mendoza did it 'cause he thinks someone's framing him for the allegations of extortion.

And yeah, I believe they should've sent in the Special Action Force instead of the PNP SWAT team.
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Old 2010-08-23, 19:11   Link #8717
saya_leviathan
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Quote:
The police attacked shortly after 7:30 p.m. after Mendoza was heard firing his gun from inside the bus. Bus driver Alberto Lubang, 38, had escaped minutes before the attack and told police that hostages had already been killed. Some observers said Mendoza was provoked by the sight of his emotional policeman-brother Gregorio Mendoza being pacified and taken away.
Yeah, I saw this in the news last night when the brother is taken away by the police and the media are taking this incident. Yeah, I think this really made the hostage taker snapped when he found out about it. Earlier, it was reported that he is willing to negotiate regarding his case and even asked the negotiators to bring lunch to the hostages and refill the gas tank so that the bus' aircon will keep running. But by nighttime, he snapped and things went downhill.

Quote:
Mendoza was fired from his post as chief of the Manila Police's Mobile Patrol Unit in 2008 after he was charged with robbery and extortion, or the so-called hulidap practice of some police of planting evidence and seeking a pay-off from the victims.

Mendoza claimed he was innocent and appealed to be reinstated. His sympathetic brother and fellow policeman, SPO2 Gregorio Mendoza, told reporters his kuya had grown tired of waiting for justice.

He hijacked the bus at around 10 a.m. after hitching a ride just as the tourists were moving from Fort Santiago to Manila Ocean Park. The bus stopped in front of the Quirino Grandstand, the festive site of President Noynoy Aquino's inauguration last June 30.
Source: http://www.gmanews.tv/story/199231/h...-hostages-dead

Aquino offers condolences to hostage victims’ family

Quote:
President Benigno “Noynoy” Aquino III has offered his condolences to the family of the victims of the deadly Quirino Grandstand hostage taking as he ordered a thorough investigation into the case that placed the Philippines in international headlines.

“With the rest of the Filipino people, I wish to offer our deepest condolences to the families of the victims whose lives were lost in the hostage situation at the Quirino Grandstand,” Aquino said in a press conference late Monday.

Aquino faced the nation three hours after hostage taker Rolando Mendoza was killed following a day-long hostage taking. (See related story here: At least seven killed in hostage crisis)

Aquino said the Philippines also conveyed its sorrow over the incident that left several Hong Kong tourists dead.

“The Secretary of Foreign Affairs has conveyed our deep feelings of sorrow to the Foreign Minister of the People’s Republic of China and the people of Hong Kong through Hong Kong Chief Executive Donald Tsang,” said Aquino.

“I have directed the fullest cooperation with the Hong Kong authorities on the part of our officials,” he added.

Aquino said the security forces were initially waiting for Mendoza to calm down but the “situation deteriorated rapidly.”

“The situation deteriorated rapidly when, during the course of the negotiations, he was given the letter of the Ombudsman in which she promised to personally review his case. As he was reading the contents of the letter, while talking to an unknown individual on the phone, he became increasingly agitated,” Aquino said, noting that the presence of Mendoza’s brother, SPO2 Gregorio Mendoza added to the tension.

Aquino acknowledged that the “media coverage of his brother being taken into custody further agitated the hostage-taker.”

As of this posting, at least seven were confirmed dead, some eight hostages have been hospitalized and two are under observation, said National Capital Region Police Office Chief, Police Director Leocaldio Santiago.

Aquino meanwhile defended police’s decision not to have a high ranking official as chief negotiator because doing so “would lead to increase in demand from the hostage taker.”

Aquino also urged Filipinos to rise above the disheartening news.

“Lahat ng pagkakataon may pagsubok tayong dadaanan. Lalo hong magsumikap dito na hindi na mangyayari ang ganitong sitwasyon,” said Aquino.
It's really ashamed that my country acted on this. Most especially, after a couple of shots were fired, a lot of people started going near the bus and these people are just a bunch of bystanders not the media or the authorities. My mom was furious about that because they should crowd control. And we're even really angry that it's taking more than an hour to get the hostages out.

Seriously, it's really embarrassing that our police acted upon this. Really embarrassing. And yes, this hostage crisis is beginning to affect the country's tourism.
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Old 2010-08-23, 19:45   Link #8718
Yu Ominae
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According to some Hong Kong media I've seen, they're calling the crisis as a massacre.

Looks like the public and media are out on full force against the PNP.
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Old 2010-08-23, 23:44   Link #8719
saya_leviathan
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Death toll from hostage crisis rises to 10, including hostage-taker

Quote:
The death toll from Monday's bloody hostage crisis in Manila rose to 10 as of early Tuesday, with another hostage succumbing to injuries in a Manila hospital.

Radio dzBB reported one of the latest fatalities was a woman who died at the San Juan de Dios Hospital, initially identified only as Doris.

Mendoza 'ready to die'

Mendoza, interviewed on Radio Mindanao Network shortly before he was killed Monday evening, had said he was ready to die.

He even warned snipers in the area he would not hesitate to “execute" hostages if authorities won’t heed to his demands.
RP consulate in HK swamped with protests over hostage crisis

Quote:
Protests over the hostage crisis in Manila on Monday swamped the Philippine consulate-general in Hong Kong, consul general Claro Cristobal said Tuesday.

In a radio interview, Cristobal said the consulate general offices had also received calls since Monday night, demanding justice for the victims.

"Simula kagabi lahat na paraan ng communication, tumatanggap ng protesta sa iba't ibang sektor ng komunidad ng Hong Kong ... Humihiling sila na dapat ang ating bansa ang managot sa mga gastusin at lahat at lalo na ng pamilyang nariyan," he said in an interview on dzBB radio.

(Since Monday night, we have received all forms of communication and protests from various sectors of the Hong Kong community. They want our country to pay for the expenses of the victims' families still in Manila.)

He said even the email accounts of Philippine tourism representatives were swamped with messages from persons irate over what happened Monday.

At least 10 people, including hostage-taker dismissed Senior Inspector Rolando Mendoza, were killed during the 11-hour hostage crisis.

Cristobal said he had answered the calls by stressing that the Philippines was also saddened by the incident.

"Ako umaasa tayo bilang isang bayan magkaisa ng pagpaparamdam sa kanila na tayo kasama nila sa kalungkutan. Tayo ay di natuwa at we have solidarity in their hour of sadness, madama nila," he said.

(I hope we as a nation can make them feel we are one with them in their hour of sorrow. We are not glad with what happened and we must make them feel our solidarity.)

He also said he spoke with some of the picketers and told them of the Philippines' "solidarity" with them in their grief.

Meanwhile, Cirstobal also said there have been no threats so far against Filipinos in Hong Kong.
I'm certain that overseas Filipino workers in Hong Kong are ashamed to show their faces ever since that incident considering that many of them are working there as caregivers and nurses.
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Old 2010-08-24, 00:59   Link #8720
Solace
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnny View Post
I was suppose to go to the hospital today, but thankfully something came up and I didn't get stuck in this massive highway shutdown this morning. Awesome crash, uh I mean poor guy...
http://www.wdtn.com/dpp/news/video%3...caught-on-tape
That's an absolutely amazing video. I'm definitely in agreement with the officials that it's a miracle he's alive at all. I used to own that model of Firebird and I can attest that the build quality is....not that great. The 80's weren't GM's best car making years that's for sure.

Not sure what the reason for speeding was (hopefully not simple stupidity), but yeah. 100+ miles an hour, hitting the center post and then crashing into a bridge as your car explodes into shrapnel....it's amazing that not only did he live but he didn't take anyone else out with him.
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