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Old 2010-08-23, 13:02   Link #21
getfresh
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Quote:
Originally Posted by marsd View Post
I've had good experience with using UTF-8 supported font to display east-asian characters and special symbols in softsubs on computers that have no east-asian language support.
So did the group that caused me to make this post in the first place. None the less it happened. So I feel it was still worth noting, that is all ^^.
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Old 2010-08-23, 15:34   Link #22
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Originally Posted by Heibi View Post
High School grade mistake. Japanese schools are 3 year schools. If the anime set in America this does not apply(most animes take place in Japan though)
I don't live in an English-speaking country. English is my second language.
I had never heard of those terms before watching anime fansubs, and they still confuse/annoy me.
Just don't assume your viewers are native English-speakers who live in the US, consider whether your viewers will actually understand the terms you're using.

Also, in the same vein, while second year of middle school is technically the 8th year of school, it seems odd to call it 8th grade when it really isn't. This is more important if transition from lower school to middle school plays a role in the story. (Even just something as simple as the story starting with the protagonist having graduated from lower school and entering middle school, it could seem odd that everyone is in "7th grade" but at the same time have their first day at that school.)
Suggested terms: 1st middle, 2nd middle, 3rd middle


Translators and editors should in general also just consider whether their target audience is an elitist group of long-time viewers, or a more general group, and use language based on that. Don't assume your viewers understand, or will care to learn, random Japanese words or family relation intricacies.
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Old 2010-08-23, 15:53   Link #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jfs View Post
Translators and editors should in general also just consider whether their target audience is an elitist group of long-time viewers, or a more general group, and use language based on that. Don't assume your viewers understand, or will care to learn, random Japanese words or family relation intricacies.
You're saying everyone should simplify their English--there is no other way to read you. From my past experiences, however, language sophistication depends on dialogue characterization, the editor, and user feedback. In one group I noticed the editor using sophisticated English, even technical terms and such, simply because the dialogue allowed it and because our audience expressed that they like sophisticated language. And nothing beats positive feedback. So basically your suggestion is out of place for amateur translations.
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Old 2010-08-23, 15:55   Link #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jfs View Post
I don't live in an English-speaking country. English is my second language.
I had never heard of those terms before watching anime fansubs, and they still confuse/annoy me.
Just don't assume your viewers are native English-speakers who live in the US, consider whether your viewers will actually understand the terms you're using.

Also, in the same vein, while second year of middle school is technically the 8th year of school, it seems odd to call it 8th grade when it really isn't. This is more important if transition from lower school to middle school plays a role in the story. (Even just something as simple as the story starting with the protagonist having graduated from lower school and entering middle school, it could seem odd that everyone is in "7th grade" but at the same time have their first day at that school.)
Suggested terms: 1st middle, 2nd middle, 3rd middle


Translators and editors should in general also just consider whether their target audience is an elitist group of long-time viewers, or a more general group, and use language based on that. Don't assume your viewers understand, or will care to learn, random Japanese words or family relation intricacies.
That was the point. That's why I pointed out that the English terms being used were incorrect when used in most anime series. The proper and very non-elitist term for them are First Year, Second Year, and Third Year.

You'll notice that a student in anime will most often introduce him/herself as "Insert name here, such and such school, First, Second or Third Year." Or they'll name which classroom they are in. Have you noticed that the rooms are labeled for their year and then a alphabetic designation? i.e. 1-A, 2-B, 3-A, etc...

On your middle school portion, the Japanese do the same thing as they do in high school. First Year, Second Year, Third Year. Very generic and very non-elitist(especially in translation). They usually add middle school to the end of that as well.

On a side note - When I was in my 8th year in school, they actually did call it 8th Grade. And when referring to any other grade, elementary or higher, they would use the number designation most of the time. Only when I entered high school is when we started using name designations like Sophomore, Junior, Senior and such.

So for you, as a English as a second language person, learning this information should actually be good. The old, you learn something new everyday adage.
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Old 2010-08-23, 15:59   Link #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jfs View Post
I don't live in an English-speaking country. English is my second language.
I had never heard of those terms before watching anime fansubs, and they still confuse/annoy me.
Just don't assume your viewers are native English-speakers who live in the US, consider whether your viewers will actually understand the terms you're using.

Also, in the same vein, while second year of middle school is technically the 8th year of school, it seems odd to call it 8th grade when it really isn't. This is more important if transition from lower school to middle school plays a role in the story. (Even just something as simple as the story starting with the protagonist having graduated from lower school and entering middle school, it could seem odd that everyone is in "7th grade" but at the same time have their first day at that school.)
Suggested terms: 1st middle, 2nd middle, 3rd middle


Translators and editors should in general also just consider whether their target audience is an elitist group of long-time viewers, or a more general group, and use language based on that. Don't assume your viewers understand, or will care to learn, random Japanese words or family relation intricacies.
I agree with your first statement completely, but not so much with your second statement/suggestion. The original stated role of fansubbing was to increase the knowledge and awareness of Japanese culture. Perhaps with that in mind fansubs should revert more to the older methods of giving notes for these cultural differences so that persons from any background may understand to meaning behind specific terms. Leave them a bit more literal yet give a cultural or regional explanation for why said term is used. These notes in the past have helped many new fans to know things about Japanese culture they did not know in the past and that we now take for granted as knowing off hand. Things may be coming full circle again with a new generation of viewers who have not seen many older fansubs where many of these things were once explained in detail via notes.

Just an idea.
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Old 2010-08-23, 19:33   Link #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cyth View Post
You're saying everyone should simplify their English--there is no other way to read you. From my past experiences, however, language sophistication depends on dialogue characterization, the editor, and user feedback. In one group I noticed the editor using sophisticated English, even technical terms and such, simply because the dialogue allowed it and because our audience expressed that they like sophisticated language. And nothing beats positive feedback. So basically your suggestion is out of place for amateur translations.
Technical language is fine, when it's in place. What I was trying to say is that culture-specific terms is something to be careful about.
So: Consider whether your choice of words might be specific to your culture. I'm using "culture" in a rather broad sense here, I really mean mostly anything (more or less) unique to organisation(s) in your country.
It's hard to strike a line, it's just that some concepts don't translate well. My impression is that the Japanese school system doesn't translate very well to the US one, so there's no meaning in pretending it does.

@Heibi: Yes of course if the 8th year of school is called 8th grade, then it's called 8th grade. I'm saying that, in the Japanese school system the 8th year of school is not called 8th grade, but 2nd middle, and that shouldn't be translated into 8th grade.

My point remains, don't attempt to translate between cultures or other organisational systems that don't translate well into each other. It just makes for confusion.


Unrelated, typing "sense" above reminded me of something else:
The word センス (sensu) does not translate to sense, it means "taste" as in "poor taste in clothing".
I've seen that poor translation way too many times. Maybe it's part of that unfortunate trend that "if the subtitles don't read engrishy they must be poorly done", that some seem to subscribe to.


Edit: Should also quickly respond to getfresh.

I'm all for re-introducing notes for terms that don't translate well, at least the first couple times they appear in a given series.
However, I'm also for not making overly wapanese subtitles, if you can get all the required meaning through without using a Japanese word, then by all means translate it straight away! It's much easier to read subtitles if you don't need to do a mental dictionary look-up, or move your eyes to a note at the top of the screen.
Note: Keikaku means plan.
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Old 2010-08-23, 19:41   Link #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jfs View Post

@Heibi: Yes of course if the 8th year of school is called 8th grade, then it's called 8th grade. I'm saying that, in the Japanese school system the 8th year of school is not called 8th grade, but 2nd middle, and that shouldn't be translated into 8th grade.

My point remains, don't attempt to translate between cultures or other organisational systems that don't translate well into each other. It just makes for confusion.
Which is why we use 1st, 2nd or 3rd Year instead of the English terms for them in our fansubs(And what I flatly stated in my post). And as I said the term for an 8th grader is 2nd Year, Middle School. That's exactly how they say it. I was simply explaining something that seemed to need explaining - due to your post concerning 8th grade(at least in the US).
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Old 2010-08-23, 20:38   Link #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jfs View Post
Unrelated, typing "sense" above reminded me of something else:
The word センス (sensu) does not translate to sense, it means "taste" as in "poor taste in clothing".
I've seen that poor translation way too many times. Maybe it's part of that unfortunate trend that "if the subtitles don't read engrishy they must be poorly done", that some seem to subscribe to.
This depends on how the word is being used, though. Using your example there, "poor sense in clothing" is awkward, but it fits fine in phrases like "poor fashion sense."

On a related note, it always annoys me when I see ステージ (suteeji) left as "stage" when it's obviously being used to mean "performance" or the like.

Last edited by Desbreko; 2010-08-23 at 21:33.
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Old 2010-08-23, 21:29   Link #29
jfs
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Heibi View Post
Which is why we use 1st, 2nd or 3rd Year instead of the English terms for them in our fansubs(And what I flatly stated in my post). And as I said the term for an 8th grader is 2nd Year, Middle School. That's exactly how they say it. I was simply explaining something that seemed to need explaining - due to your post concerning 8th grade(at least in the US).
Huh, I never talked about grade school in the US. Try re-reading my original post.


@Desbreko: Yeah, and I'm sure you can find even more cases like that... Japanese use of loan-words can be really odd
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Old 2010-08-23, 21:45   Link #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jfs View Post
Huh, I never talked about grade school in the US. Try re-reading my original post.


@Desbreko: Yeah, and I'm sure you can find even more cases like that... Japanese use of loan-words can be really odd
And I didn't mention it in my post that you replied to either. Don't even know where you got that. 1st, 2nd or 3rd Year referred to high school only, since that was what my original post was about.
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Old 2010-08-23, 21:47   Link #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Desbreko View Post
This depends on how the word is being used, though. Using your example there, "poor sense in clothing" is awkward, but it fits fine in phrases like "poor fashion sense."

On a related note, it always annoys me when I see ステージ (suteeji) left as "stage" when it's obviously being used to mean "performance" or the like.
Unless they're saying get up on "stage". But yes, if they're referring to a performance there's no need to be literal.
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Old 2010-08-23, 23:35   Link #32
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Err back to the original topic I'd say asking your typesetters to TS every damn sign. All it does is piss your typesetter off and burn them out quicker.
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Old 2010-08-23, 23:46   Link #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by b0nk View Post
Err back to the original topic I'd say asking your typesetters to TS every damn sign. All it does is piss your typesetter off and burn them out quicker.
The key I think Getfresh was talking about was making sure your soft-sub can be played by anyone. I include the fonts I use in our releases to make sure anyone can view them. I'm also the typesetter.(not to mention the timer, editor, and much more) If your typesetter wants people to enjoy his/her work this shouldn't be a problem. Oh, I typeset every damn sign.
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Old 2010-08-24, 00:12   Link #34
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Oh, forgot translation notes:
One big mistake is putting a long drawn out TL: at the top of the page when dialog and show are going. Very distracting. We can't read both at the same time folks(top and bottom). There are two ways to deal with them.

1. If it is a simple TL, like one word and the translation is there you can do it like this. I did this in an episode of Touch. It was a play on words in Japanese. Omiai and Omimai. Two similar words meaning two separate things. The two characters in the scene used one of the words. I put the word beneath the sentence being spoken in parenthesis and a different color. I didn't need to make a translation note at all since each sentence above the word made it clear. Omiai means arrange meeting between two perspective partners for marriage. Omimai means a hospital visit to someone who is sick or injured. One character said "A matchmaking date ?" (Omiai) and the answer was a distinct pronunciation of the word "A hospital visit." (Omimai). In both cases I forced a line split so the word that needed explanation was below the sentence.

2. The other best way is in the credits of the show at the end or a more laborious additional notes explanation add-on to the show. I've seen that with several groups, like during Valkyria. I always prefer to put the TL notes during the ending credits.
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Old 2010-08-24, 00:49   Link #35
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My preferred way of dealing with puns:

http://a.imageshack.us/img841/8062/precuredx2pun.jpg

The joke being that his name is Karehaan.
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Old 2010-08-24, 03:29   Link #36
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Old 2010-08-24, 04:57   Link #37
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Typesetting
-Trying to make your work cooler by using decorative fonts
-Not following the most basic styling rules. Sans sheriff, white center, black border and gray shadow is all you need – well, you don’t even need the shadow.
-Using the default margins, a.k.a not using the over scan mask rule.
-Putting style before readability
-Small unreadable fonts

I just hate it when good subs are displayed horribly. Boring is good.

Image is nothing. Readability is everything

Last edited by Kurre; 2010-08-24 at 05:15.
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Old 2010-08-24, 07:55   Link #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurre View Post
Typesetting
-Not following the most basic styling rules. Sans sheriff, white center, black border and gray shadow is all you need Ė well, you donít even need the shadow.

Image is nothing. Readability is everything
Actually thinking that there is a basic rule when it comes to font color is the mistake, not the color of the font. Readability is the real rule that they mess up on. I could care less what color the font is, as long as I can read it without too much effort the color is good. Let's not get into a font-color war.
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Old 2010-08-24, 09:06   Link #39
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Originally Posted by Heibi View Post
Actually thinking that there is a basic rule when it comes to font color is the mistake, not the color of the font. Readability is the real rule that they mess up on. I could care less what color the font is, as long as I can read it without too much effort the color is good. Let's not get into a font-color war.
Don't get me wrong. I'm not really saying that you should always use these colors and these styles. I'm just saying that you don't basically need anything else to produce something nice.
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Old 2010-08-24, 09:56   Link #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurre View Post
Don't get me wrong. I'm not really saying that you should always use these colors and these styles. I'm just saying that you don't basically need anything else to produce something nice.
I wonder if there is some "optimal" font color formula you could come up with...

Say, take the average color of the pixels surrounding the subtitle text, then invert the luma and chroma values...

Then you could write a script that automatically colors each subtitle line using the optimal "contrasting" color for readability...

Someone needs to try this and see what happens
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