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Old 2010-08-24, 01:36   Link #8721
SaintessHeart
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AnimeTheme View Post
The point is, they were not trying to "sneakily" doing so. They were actually taking some brute-force actions. They used hammers to smash the windows, a rope to pull the main the door, and all ended in vain. And after half an hour of meaningless actions... they "remembered" that they could just use the escape door! If it were a movie, this would definitely make me ROFL...
Keep in mind that it is a second world country without sufficient resources, so they have to use a heavy headed sledgehammer to double as an entry hammer. They are pretty smart to stop the bus by shooting out the wheels though.

Making use of a glow stick is a nice try though since the bus is dark inside. They could have attached high powered tac-lights to their weapons though and stormed the bus with small arms like SMGs and pistols rather than the AR-15 carbine mods. I would rather they duct tape high-powered flashlights to their rifles instead.

The escape door is the worst place of entry IMO. Besides, there is a big mistake in their entry tactics -

1. The objective is not properly illuminated at night. Light can at least pass through the curtains and disorient the hijackers.

2. STACKING - That is the panic moment of the SWAT team. They stumbled, and why is there only a three-man stack at the front? The stack should cover the entire side of the bus so messages can be passed down fast enough.

3. Lighting up the bus - the glow stick could be better thrown from the front or the back of the bus. Or even better, flares.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kaizerknight01 View Post
The police failed .......... miserably there was no plan of action, in both strategic and tactical perspective , the authorities failed to control and contain the situation ... and 9 people died and couple more injured because of the police's lack of training and professionalism
There is only one hijacker. The reason why the police failed is not because of planning, but rather panic.

If you ask me about professionalism of the police, I would say it would be better if they blow the whole bus up. The Russians did the same in the Moscow Theater siege by flooding irritants through the air-con vents and even better, Beslan which they sent a T-72 and fired three tank rounds into the school.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Rambo View Post
Though I'll be clear that I don't take this as some kind of moral failure on the part of the cops. Anybody would be afraid of rushing into a cramped space where there was a prepared gunman with a high capacity weapon. The distinction that I'm seeing is that these guys probably didn't receive the proper training/discipline and leadership which is needed to effectively carry out these kind of missions. Quite frankly speaking, regular people just plain suck at fighting. To put it frankly, you need to mentally reprogram people in order for them to cope with fear and effectively fight.
You are partially right on this, however, the biggest issue is still the fear of death - most people can't get through the mental block after analysing the situation will bring about their deaths and think about what they can do to avoid their deaths.

Finally, a bus hijack is the most difficult to rectify compared to other hostage scenarios. Cramped spaces, little room for surprise, there is bound to be casualties - so in most cases it would always be easier to blow the whole bus up, write off the hostages as casualties and collaterals, then forwarding a "If you think you can do better, give suggestions or be there. Otherwise, STFU." to all relevant bleeding heart groups.

Funny that out of so many posts, there is only one sensible one :

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
To me, it mostly looked like they didn't want to go in. I don't blame them. I wouldn't want to face a guy with a gun either.
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Old 2010-08-24, 02:08   Link #8722
AnimeTheme
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SaintessHeart View Post
- SKIP -
I don't want to reply each of your points separately. Your arguments are so wrong on many levels.
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Old 2010-08-24, 02:10   Link #8723
Jinto
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Solace View Post
That's an absolutely amazing video. I'm definitely in agreement with the officials that it's a miracle he's alive at all. I used to own that model of Firebird and I can attest that the build quality is....not that great. The 80's weren't GM's best car making years that's for sure.

Not sure what the reason for speeding was (hopefully not simple stupidity), but yeah. 100+ miles an hour, hitting the center post and then crashing into a bridge as your car explodes into shrapnel....it's amazing that not only did he live but he didn't take anyone else out with him.
It appears it has taken a lot of concrete from the support column of the bridge with it. If it was sturdier (the column), I think the driver would not have survived... on the other side... after watching this I would have my own serious thoughts about the stability of the bridge.

@SaintessHeart,

at night SpecOps can use the advantages of night vision and infrared cameras. The attacker would still think he is protected in the darkness, but his warmth would tell people outside where he is (only possible through the windows, not the metal). Storming the bus is a different matter. However, after the bus driver was safe - it could have been done from the front side (on the large window use taped explosives that cut a frame into the front window after throwing in flashbang grenades from the sides). The whole thing must be executed in under 2 minutes.

But, and that is where I am with you... it requires the correct equipement.

Last edited by Jinto; 2010-08-24 at 02:20.
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Old 2010-08-24, 02:21   Link #8724
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With more and more evidence from the survivors and other sources, the fact may turn out to be that the gunman only killed one person, and the rest were killed by the police...
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Old 2010-08-24, 02:22   Link #8725
SaintessHeart
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AnimeTheme View Post
I don't want to reply each of your points separately. Your arguments are so wrong on many levels.
Well if you can think of a reply you would already have posted.

Besides, I have already iterated that :

Quote:
Originally Posted by SaintessHeart View Post
Finally, a bus hijack is the most difficult to rectify compared to other hostage scenarios. Cramped spaces, little room for surprise, there is bound to be casualties - so in most cases it would always be easier to blow the whole bus up, write off the hostages as casualties and collaterals, then forwarding a "If you think you can do better, give suggestions or be there. Otherwise, STFU." to all relevant bleeding heart groups.
If you have a better battle plan, present it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jinto View Post
@SaintessHeart,

at night SpecOps can use the advantages of night vision and infrared cameras. The attacker would still think he is protected in the darkness, but his warmth would tell people outside where he is (only possible through the windows, not the metal). Storming the bus is a different matter. However, after the bus driver was safe - it could have been done from the front side (on the large window use taped explosives that cut a frame into the front window after throwing in flashbang grenades from the sides). The whole thing must be executed in under 2 minutes.

But, and that is where I am with you... it requires the correct equipement.
Yeah. The problem that it is Philippines - the police aren't as well equipped with proper equipment due to their national budget constraints. If the police have to resort to bribery, it is highly probable that they are underpaid and overworked (which police officer isn't overworked in this world?).

Frame charges aren't cheap despite its widespread appeal in hostage scenarios. The frame itself has to be heavily reinforced with ceramics and kevlar to direct the blast forward. Also, from what I have learnt, using it is rather risky because the shrapnel it propels forward is no different from firing a shotgun at high velocity into the bus - possibly slicing through the front seats and killing passengers.

Stun grenades are effective, but some SWAT teams aren't allowed to use them because of PR reasons - bleeding heart groups spread propaganda about how it can cause shock and heart attacks on passengers when it only applies to a minority.

So I proposed the decision of blowing up the bus instead since no matter what the police do, it would still be met with opposition who use the scenario for their own political purposes and spread panic.
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When three puppygirls named after pastries are on top of each other, it is called Eclair a'la menthe et Biscotti aux fraises avec beaucoup de Ricotta sur le dessus.
Most of all, you have to be disciplined and you have to save, even if you hate our current financial system. Because if you don't save, then you're guaranteed to end up with nothing.

Last edited by SaintessHeart; 2010-08-24 at 02:34.
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Old 2010-08-24, 02:39   Link #8726
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SaintessHeart View Post
If you have a better battle plan, present it.
Oh yeah, blowing up the bus, HUH? Very smart of you.

They didn't have the proper equipments. They had no plans. They were in panic. They might end up killing more hostages than the gunman did. They are the PNP. Feel free to defend them.
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Old 2010-08-24, 02:57   Link #8727
SaintessHeart
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AnimeTheme View Post
Oh yeah, blowing up the bus, HUH?
Quote:
Originally Posted by SaintessHeart View Post
So I proposed the decision of blowing up the bus instead since no matter what the police do, it would still be met with opposition who use the scenario for their own political purposes and spread panic.
I suggested an absolute because there isn't any other effective plan or direction available at that moment. If the police aren't that frozen stiff (as shown by the way they hammer the window down, simple Physics put it as the guy with the hammer have to expose himself and direct the body force perpendicular to the window for maximum effectiveness), they should have stormed the bus and take a few deaths in their numbers.

You can't blame the police in this case due to their lack of proper training and equipment. You blame the politicians who allocated them their budget.

Quote:
Very smart of you.
Interesting personal attack. Thank you.

Quote:
They didn't have the proper equipments. They had no plans. They were in panic. They might end up killing more hostages than the gunman. They are the PNP. Feel free to defend them.
Now that is a pretty biased argument. Reductio ad Hitlerum?

Being the PNP doesn't mean that they should not be defended for their actions, or at least the SWAT team themselves. And without proper equipment, plans or professionalism, all the more we should defend them from public ire, which is usually misguided armchair politicking, or simply sheep following the commentary from opposing political parties.

Like I said, if you have a better plan, present it. Otherwise, don't espouse the "rights" and "wrongs" when you aren't exactly sure what you would have done yourself in their place.

And with that commentary, what do you think they should have done? Leave the hijacker hanging?
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When three puppygirls named after pastries are on top of each other, it is called Eclair a'la menthe et Biscotti aux fraises avec beaucoup de Ricotta sur le dessus.
Most of all, you have to be disciplined and you have to save, even if you hate our current financial system. Because if you don't save, then you're guaranteed to end up with nothing.
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Old 2010-08-24, 02:58   Link #8728
fukarming
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After watching YouTube about the hostage situation, I must say we should consider the turnout of the event as lucky. When the police start hitting the window with the hammer, the gunman knew he is toast. I am surprised there are survivors at all. With all the time lapse between the window hit and the entrance, the gunman can go around shooting hostages execution style and then kill himself.

And some people mention fear, of the police? You got to be kidding me, right? The police/ firefighter/ security guard/ armies are trained for this kind of situation. If you cannot cope for fear then you should quit the job. Remember there are hundreds of firefighters die during 9/11 attack when they try to rescue the survivors? They could totally sit back and chill and wait until everything die down before they go in and dig up the corpse, but they didn't.
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Old 2010-08-24, 03:12   Link #8729
AnimeTheme
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fukarming View Post
After watching YouTube about the hostage situation, I must say we should consider the turnout of the event as lucky. When the police start hitting the window with the hammer, the gunman knew he is toast. I am surprised there are survivors at all. With all the time lapse between the window hit and the entrance, the gunman can go around shooting hostages execution style and then kill himself.
That's why I can't stand the stupidness of their actions. A "planned" storming action that takes nearly an hour when this should be done in a few minutes? You gotta be kidding me. And talking about the hammer... there are visual evidence from survivors and outside that they did kill a victim when swinging the hammer towards the front door...


Quote:
And some people mention fear, of the police? You got to be kidding me, right? The police/ firefighter/ security guard/ armies are trained for this kind of situation. If you cannot cope for fear then you should quit the job. Remember there are hundreds of firefighters die during 9/11 attack when they try to rescue the survivors? They could totally sit back and chill and wait until everything die down before they go in and dig up the corpse, but they didn't.
I can't agree more.
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Old 2010-08-24, 03:14   Link #8730
SaintessHeart
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fukarming View Post
And some people mention fear, of the police? You got to be kidding me, right? The police/ firefighter/ security guard/ armies are trained for this kind of situation. If you cannot cope for fear then you should quit the job. Remember there are hundreds of firefighters die during 9/11 attack when they try to rescue the survivors? They could totally sit back and chill and wait until everything die down before they go in and dig up the corpse, but they didn't.
It is always easier said than done. No matter how much training a civil servant has, when it comes to putting his/her life on the line at an immediate moment, people will freeze up.

There is an ad verbatim recount of an ex-executioner here who trained a junior officer as his understudy. The latter freaked out and quitted his job in the civil service because he couldn't bring himself to pull the lever and drop the death-row inmate. I don't blame him because he's still human.

Similarly, I have seen people who freeze up during my boot camp's live grenade throw - and it isn't like a war film where the grenade just go poof, the explosion literally shakes the ground from where you have thrown that bomb.

I believe it is a mental block factor which freezes people in place as the brain couldn't discern the next action - fear isn't as easily overcome as it is shown in popular media.
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When three puppygirls named after pastries are on top of each other, it is called Eclair a'la menthe et Biscotti aux fraises avec beaucoup de Ricotta sur le dessus.
Most of all, you have to be disciplined and you have to save, even if you hate our current financial system. Because if you don't save, then you're guaranteed to end up with nothing.
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Old 2010-08-24, 03:18   Link #8731
saya_leviathan
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Many are started to point fingers on who's to blame including the President (Srsly, crab mentality). But another sector who is also at fault is the media, who broadcast the whole thing on air.

Well, they know that the bus has a TV and a radio. They know that Mendoza (the hostage taker) is watching and listening. Since they even broadcast what the police are doing, Mendoza was aware of it. They even broadcast the arrest of his brother which actually provoked him and started shooting.
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Old 2010-08-24, 03:24   Link #8732
fukarming
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SaintessHeart View Post
It is always easier said than done. No matter how much training a civil servant has, when it comes to putting his/her life on the line at an immediate moment, people will freeze up.

There is an ad verbatim recount of an ex-executioner here who trained a junior officer as his understudy. The latter freaked out and quitted his job in the civil service because he couldn't bring himself to pull the lever and drop the death-row inmate. I don't blame him because he's still human.

Similarly, I have seen people who freeze up during my boot camp's live grenade throw - and it isn't like a war film where the grenade just go poof, the explosion literally shakes the ground from where you have thrown that bomb.

I believe it is a mental block factor which freezes people in place as the brain couldn't discern the next action - fear isn't as easily overcome as it is shown in popular media.
Again I refer you to the 9/11 firefighters. So how did they do it? They are not human?

Your two examples just prove my point: they are in training exercise. So whoever think they cannot overcome fear should quit so they don't freeze in real life situation.
Of course people freeze up during live grenade throw. I am sure that I will freeze up on the first training as well. However, after many trainings I am sure everyone who stayed in the force can get use to it.
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Old 2010-08-24, 03:28   Link #8733
SaintessHeart
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AnimeTheme View Post
That's why I can't stand the stupidness of their actions. A "planned" storming action that takes nearly an hour when this should be done in a few minutes? You gotta be kidding me. And talking about the hammer... there are visual evidence from survivors and outside that they did kill a victim when swinging the hammer towards the front door...
Shit happens. And not all CT raids are completely foolproof. Even highly successful hostage rescues amount to collateral damage and deaths.

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Originally Posted by fukarming View Post
Again I refer you to the 9/11 firefighters. So how did they do it? They are not human?
Encouragement? Sense of duty? I don't know. It is more of a personal and erratic factor we cannot exactly pinpoint so it isn't fair to push blames.

Quote:
Your two examples just prove my point: they are in training exercise. So whoever think they cannot overcome fear should quit so they don't freeze in real life situation.
Of course people freeze up during live grenade throw. I am sure that I will freeze up on the first training as well. However, after many trainings I am sure everyone who stayed in the force can get use to it.
Just to let you know, we have multiple non-live grenade throws before the actual one. Yet people still freeze up on the live throw. It isn't training; It is upon realisation that you are handling a live "weapon of personal destruction" that you freeze up.

Another thing : it is a conscription over here. There is no quitting unless we declare ourselves gay or medically prove ourselves to be mentally handicapped.

Of course, it boils down to the personal psychology, Alderfer-Maslow ERG, blah blah blah which most people will never attempt to understand. It is always much more easier to criticise someone for the things he/she can't do and feel morally high and good about it rather than asking ourselves why they can't.
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When three puppygirls named after pastries are on top of each other, it is called Eclair a'la menthe et Biscotti aux fraises avec beaucoup de Ricotta sur le dessus.
Most of all, you have to be disciplined and you have to save, even if you hate our current financial system. Because if you don't save, then you're guaranteed to end up with nothing.
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Old 2010-08-24, 03:31   Link #8734
AnimeTheme
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Quote:
Originally Posted by saya_leviathan View Post
Many are started to point fingers on who's to blame including the President (Srsly, crab mentality). But another sector who is also at fault is the media, who broadcast the whole thing on air.

Well, they know that the bus has a TV and a radio. They know that Mendoza (the hostage taker) is watching and listening. Since they even broadcast what the police are doing, Mendoza was aware of it. They even broadcast the arrest of his brother which actually provoked him and started shooting.
Well, there is little anyone can do to the press situation. The bus is in such an open position. It's just impossible to block all the media coverage. Besides, almost every similar situations are broadcasted in live nowadays. It can't really be used as an "excuse" of their failure.

That said, I wonder if there is any kind of procedures or jammer device that can prevent the gunner from knowing the outside via radio and especially TV...?
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Old 2010-08-24, 03:47   Link #8735
SaintessHeart
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AnimeTheme View Post
Well, there is little anyone can do to the press situation. The bus is in such an open position. It's just impossible to block all the media coverage. Besides, almost every similar situations are broadcasted in live nowadays. It can't really be used as an "excuse" of their failure.
Well the police did what they did. Keep going. Don't stop, since they are already on air.

Though they could have been less hestitant in what they did by smashing every window looking for entry rather and sit there and wait for the truck.

Quote:
That said, I wonder if there is any kind of procedures or jammer device that can prevent the gunner from knowing the outside via radio and especially TV...?
Only for state controlled televsion and shut down all radio and TV broadcasts. Either that, or shoot every cameraman.

Honestly speaking, they have conducted the raid at the wrong time - at night, where the darkness in the bus already made it bad enough for maneuvering. They could have kept negotiating and pushed for more time to cover everything. Sacking police officers won't solve problems in its aftermath - proper training and equipment buildups through accounted budget allocations still constitute much to national security and reinforcement.

It would be best that they take this as a learning scenario and get down to work rather than just shifting blame and playing political games.
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When three puppygirls named after pastries are on top of each other, it is called Eclair a'la menthe et Biscotti aux fraises avec beaucoup de Ricotta sur le dessus.
Most of all, you have to be disciplined and you have to save, even if you hate our current financial system. Because if you don't save, then you're guaranteed to end up with nothing.
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Old 2010-08-24, 03:57   Link #8736
AnimeTheme
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I know and understand that not all rescue actions can be clean, but there were many actions done by PNP in which I think they didn't know or even care about the existence of any hostages before doing so. And if it really ends up being real that only one hostage was killed by the gunman, there is little to none that PNP can defend against the failure.

There are quite some conspiracy theories regarding the Philippines government's reactions regarding the whole incident, such as their absurd reluctance to negotiate or fulfill the gunman's needs, and all those unnecessary actions that could provoke the gunner (and they did), as if they were trying to hide up some truths and didn't want the gunner to surrender and walk out alive. Unfortunately, all these investigations are going to be conducted by themselves, so we may never know the true story...
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Old 2010-08-24, 04:08   Link #8737
SaintessHeart
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AnimeTheme View Post
I know and understand that not all rescue actions can be clean, but there were many actions done by PNP in which I think they didn't know or even care about the existence of any hostages before doing so. And if it really ends up being real that only one hostage was killed by the gunman, there is little to none that PNP can defend against the failure.

There are quite some conspiracy theories regarding the Philippines government's reactions regarding the whole incident, such as their absurd reluctance to negotiate or fulfill the gunman's needs, and all those unnecessary actions that could provoke the gunner (and they did), as if they were trying to hide up some truths and didn't want the gunner to surrender and walk out alive. Unfortunately, all these investigations are going to be conducted by themselves, so we may never know the true story...
I think it is more of a political issue rather than a national security one. Seriously speaking, the government really needs to clean up their acts.
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When three puppygirls named after pastries are on top of each other, it is called Eclair a'la menthe et Biscotti aux fraises avec beaucoup de Ricotta sur le dessus.
Most of all, you have to be disciplined and you have to save, even if you hate our current financial system. Because if you don't save, then you're guaranteed to end up with nothing.
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Old 2010-08-24, 04:15   Link #8738
saya_leviathan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SaintessHeart View Post
I think it is more of a political issue rather than a national security one. Seriously speaking, the government really needs to clean up their acts.
Definitely agree on this since the President just started his term last month. Except that I'm still doubting on his leadership.
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Old 2010-08-24, 04:28   Link #8739
MeoTwister5
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People always assume that the new leadership can take a country into a 180-degree spin into a better tomorrow the moment they take office.

It's usually because people are idiots.
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Old 2010-08-24, 05:29   Link #8740
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The death toll for the Manila tragedy is confirmed at eight, not nine.

Rationalisations and justifications aside, my personal opinion is that of disbelief over the sheer incompetence of the would-be rescuers. That said, I don't suspect foul play. In general, most governments rule out negotiation with hostage takers; doing so would encourage others to use the same means to force a response. Negotiations, when they happen at all, are meant to be no more than a stalling tactic for rescuers to plan the operation.

One thing is for certain: This does nothing to improve the Philippines' reputation.
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