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View Poll Results: The Disappearance of Haruhi Suzumiya - Rating
Perfect 10 235 64.56%
9 out of 10 : Excellent 93 25.55%
8 out of 10 : Very Good 25 6.87%
7 out of 10 : Good 7 1.92%
6 out of 10 : Average 3 0.82%
5 out of 10 : Below Average 1 0.27%
4 out of 10 : Poor 0 0%
3 out of 10 : Bad 0 0%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad 0 0%
1 out of 10 : Painful 0 0%
Voters: 364. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2010-08-22, 04:14   Link #321
quigonkenny
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Originally Posted by CrowKenobi View Post
Nah, it's just any specific explanation of why Kyon went back in time to save himself would be considered spoiling (at least until ~snip~ events gets animated).
I'd say anything that can be speculated from (or that is made obvious by) the movie should be fair game. Like Ijuinkun's comments. This is a "reviews" thread, so you'd expect to see descriptions of events from the movie, and speculation about hinted-at future events (confirmation, maybe not so much). The "why" is quite obvious in context, at least the primary reason why. But the "when"... *cough*
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Old 2010-08-22, 23:14   Link #322
ijuinkun
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The mere fact that Kyon encountered his future self is enough of a "why"--in the Haruhiverse, once you have become aware of your future actions, they become "locked in" (the "predetermined events"). If Kyon encountered his future self in the movie, then according to the rules of Time Travel that Mikuru's group operate under, Kyon must at some later point travel back to be encountered by his younger self in order to close the time loop.
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Old 2010-08-23, 00:17   Link #323
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It does bug me quite a bit that everyone (especially Kyon) feels that they HAVE to do something a certain way. Okay, so you were saved, and you remember that it was yourself that did the saving. That does NOT mean you have to go back in time and actually do that! The fact that Kyon is alive means that SOMEHOW he was saved. Is he just going to disappear sometime if he never goes back? Where do you draw the line? Let's say Kyon goes his whole life without traveling back in time. Now he's on his deathbed, and there are no more chances to go to the past. Does he disappear then? If anything, now that he's back, he doesn't have to do a darn thing. He's alive! That's the end of it!

...Sorry, it just frustrates me when the only reasoning for a character's actions is "the plot requires it" or "it just has to be this way." That's a sign of poor writing, IMO.
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Old 2010-08-23, 00:57   Link #324
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After seeing the Movie I could die and not care in the slightest bit. ^^
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Old 2010-08-23, 02:04   Link #325
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Originally Posted by Gamer_2k4 View Post
...Sorry, it just frustrates me when the only reasoning for a character's actions is "the plot requires it" or "it just has to be this way." That's a sign of poor writing, IMO.
Or for laughs as demonstrated in Bill & Ted's Excellent Adventure.
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Old 2010-08-23, 09:36   Link #326
Gamer_2k4
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After seeing the Movie I could die and not care in the slightest bit. ^^
Personally, I'd like to see a non-camrip version before dying.

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Originally Posted by CrowKenobi View Post
Or for laughs as demonstrated in Bill & Ted's Excellent Adventure.
Oh sure, humor is a valid reason to do that sort of thing. No argument here.
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Old 2010-08-23, 14:28   Link #327
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Old 2010-08-23, 15:44   Link #328
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The only thing I was really confused about was what happened to Kyon during those three days. Did he really fall down the stairs or were they just memories created by Yuki? Also, wouldn't that mean Kyon aged three days? Or maybe everyone's memories of the alternate universe were only replaced by the new memories Yuki created but that's not possible since

Spoiler for book 7:


I'm just totally confused on how this repairing worked
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Old 2010-08-26, 11:55   Link #329
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You know, I just realized that while I introduced myself on this forum and in this thread by starting a three page debate on time travel, I never explicitly said how I felt about Disappearance. Let's remedy that.

It looks like the author of the Haruhi series hit upon the solution to make the most out of his fictional world. How did he do that? Observe:

1. Get rid of the loud, annoying, crazy character.
2. Play up the only character that has any sort of usefulness.
3. Resurrect #2's rival.
4. Let everyone else fade to the background.

Upgrade it to movie form by adding great music and animation, and you have what's literally the best thing that could happen to the series (you know, short of developing the other characters).

Did that sound sarcastic or cynical? I didn't mean it to. I really did like the movie, and I'm looking forward to its DVD release. I truly think that as a part of the Haruhi series, it's the best of the novels I've read/watched (the first one is best if we're judging each independently of the others). But...what can I say? I call things like I see them.
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Old 2010-08-26, 23:14   Link #330
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gamer_2k4 View Post
You know, I just realized that while I introduced myself on this forum and in this thread by starting a three page debate on time travel, I never explicitly said how I felt about Disappearance. Let's remedy that.

It looks like the author of the Haruhi series hit upon the solution to make the most out of his fictional world. How did he do that? Observe:

1. Get rid of the loud, annoying, crazy character.
2. Play up the only character that has any sort of usefulness.
3. Resurrect #2's rival.
4. Let everyone else fade to the background.

Upgrade it to movie form by adding great music and animation, and you have what's literally the best thing that could happen to the series (you know, short of developing the other characters).

Did that sound sarcastic or cynical? I didn't mean it to. I really did like the movie, and I'm looking forward to its DVD release. I truly think that as a part of the Haruhi series, it's the best of the novels I've read/watched (the first one is best if we're judging each independently of the others). But...what can I say? I call things like I see them.
1: But we still love Haruhi Suzumiya either way
2: Koizumi had "some" usefulness as well... Well... Possibly
3: Asakura Ryoko is possibly the only rival you do not want revived no matter what
4: Agree
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Old 2010-08-27, 09:36   Link #331
Vallen Chaos Valiant
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gamer_2k4 View Post
You know, I just realized that while I introduced myself on this forum and in this thread by starting a three page debate on time travel, I never explicitly said how I felt about Disappearance. Let's remedy that.

It looks like the author of the Haruhi series hit upon the solution to make the most out of his fictional world. How did he do that? Observe:

1. Get rid of the loud, annoying, crazy character.
2. Play up the only character that has any sort of usefulness.
3. Resurrect #2's rival.
4. Let everyone else fade to the background.

Upgrade it to movie form by adding great music and animation, and you have what's literally the best thing that could happen to the series (you know, short of developing the other characters).

Did that sound sarcastic or cynical? I didn't mean it to. I really did like the movie, and I'm looking forward to its DVD release. I truly think that as a part of the Haruhi series, it's the best of the novels I've read/watched (the first one is best if we're judging each independently of the others). But...what can I say? I call things like I see them.
You need to not look at Disappearance as a movie-script, but rather as a part of the novel franchise.
The first book in the series was written to be self-contained. After been told that his stories could be continued, the issue became HOW. The SOS-dan wasn't actually much of a team at all, by the end of the first book. And if they are not much of a team then there is no long term prospects in them having adventures together. Hence major story arcs were created in order literally alter each member's position in the story.

The filming of the student film and the event leading to Live a Live was written to mellow Haruhi out, so that Kyon can reign her in when necessary.

Endless Eight and Disappearance is about adding humanising elements to Yuki, and more importantly NERF her to hell so she wouldn't become game-breaking and make all future stories impossible.

As for Itsuki and Mikuru? I won't spoil, but they got their own arcs later.

Disappearance is not written as a movie. It was one of the more popular books because the author admits that Yuki Nagato is his personal favourite. But in the end the franchise is about the SOS-dan; as in, all four of them, together. Mikuru, especially, get a HUGE storyarc, one that might well envelope everything all the way to book 10. But we will see about that. Just because Yuki was the focus in her movie doesn't mean the other characters don't matter anymore.
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Old 2010-08-27, 11:18   Link #332
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2: Koizumi had "some" usefulness as well... Well... Possibly
Eh, he just fulfilled the role of "guy who explains to the audience what's going on," like he always does.

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Originally Posted by Hooves View Post
3: Asakura Ryoko is possibly the only rival you do not want revived no matter what
Oh sure, from the characters' perspective, you wouldn't want her back at all. But from a plot/storytelling perspective, it's a pretty good decision.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
You need to not look at Disappearance as a movie-script, but rather as a part of the novel franchise.
The first book in the series was written to be self-contained. After been told that his stories could be continued, the issue became HOW. The SOS-dan wasn't actually much of a team at all, by the end of the first book. And if they are not much of a team then there is no long term prospects in them having adventures together. Hence major story arcs were created in order literally alter each member's position in the story.

The filming of the student film and the event leading to Live a Live was written to mellow Haruhi out, so that Kyon can reign her in when necessary.
I'm not arguing that each book and each storyline has a place in the series. But some characters by their design develop better than others (for an extreme example, Kyon's sister isn't going to develop at all without making some pretty drastic alterations), and Yuki just lends herself well to it.

The problem, to me anyway, is that developing Haruhi is so uninteresting because the best way to show that she's becoming more normal is to show her doing normal things. Normal things are...normal. She's in the odd situation where in order to be interesting/funny, she has to be a complete nut, and in order to not be a complete nut, she has to be uninteresting/boring.

I say the above largely with Sigh in mind. But other episodes, such as Live a Live and Day of Sagittarius, were good precisely because of the animated format in which they were presented. In writing, they lack the punch that they have in the anime. That's not necessarily a bad thing; for example, Haruhi's singing scene was better in the book because it was more realistic. The anime version will always be more memorable, though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
Endless Eight and Disappearance is about adding humanising elements to Yuki, and more importantly NERF her to hell so she wouldn't become game-breaking and make all future stories impossible.
I wonder...wouldn't all the other human interfaces also suffer the same effects? Yuki remembered everything because she was a computer, not because she was close to Haruhi.

Spoiler for Yuki's punishment:


Quote:
Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
As for Itsuki and Mikuru? I won't spoil, but they got their own arcs later.
I can't speak for Itsuki, but from what I've read (Book 7), Mikuru's arc is rather lackluster. There's a difference between giving a character some time in the spotlight and actually developing them. When that book concludes, we literally know nothing more about Mikuru than we did before. In fact, it almost feels like the little bit with Haruhi (which I admit had a fun ending) was the actual story, and Mikuru's issues were just something that went on in the background (and within the story, that's exactly how it is, though it's presented the opposite way).

It's hard to develop Mikuru, who was established pretty firmly as a moe character and nothing else (she's really defined by her powerlessness). It's hard to develop Itsuki, whose only power is denied as Haruhi mellows. It's hard to develop Haruhi, because the "right" outcome for her is one where she's content and doesn't cause all the trouble that drives the stories. Kyon's easier to develop for the opposite reason: he starts out complacent, and his growth is shown by how much he decides to interfere with everything else. Yuki's easy to develop too, for the same reason. She was designed as a passive observer, so her growth occurs as she takes action.

Which characters gain the most from development? Kyon and Yuki. Which characters does Disappearance revolve around? Kyon and Yuki. That's why Disappearance is the best thing that could happen to the series.

Last edited by Gamer_2k4; 2010-08-29 at 03:19.
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Old 2010-08-27, 15:01   Link #333
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It does bug me quite a bit that everyone (especially Kyon) feels that they HAVE to do something a certain way. Okay, so you were saved, and you remember that it was yourself that did the saving. That does NOT mean you have to go back in time and actually do that! The fact that Kyon is alive means that SOMEHOW he was saved. Is he just going to disappear sometime if he never goes back? Where do you draw the line? Let's say Kyon goes his whole life without traveling back in time. Now he's on his deathbed, and there are no more chances to go to the past. Does he disappear then? If anything, now that he's back, he doesn't have to do a darn thing. He's alive! That's the end of it!

...Sorry, it just frustrates me when the only reasoning for a character's actions is "the plot requires it" or "it just has to be this way." That's a sign of poor writing, IMO.
If the Kyon that was saved doesn't go back in time, then where did the Kyon that saved him come from? It seems to me that we have to pick from one of two suppositions when dealing with the time travelling thing, 1) there is a continuity to the history, which requires that the Kyon who was saved is the Kyon that must later return, or 2) there is no continuity but alternate realities, and the Kyon that did the saving came from a variant reality.
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Old 2010-08-27, 16:12   Link #334
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If the Kyon that was saved doesn't go back in time, then where did the Kyon that saved him come from? It seems to me that we have to pick from one of two suppositions when dealing with the time travelling thing, 1) there is a continuity to the history, which requires that the Kyon who was saved is the Kyon that must later return, or 2) there is no continuity but alternate realities, and the Kyon that did the saving came from a variant reality.
1) This means that time travel implies predestination, which is an ugly concept. I'm not saying that's incorrect, as it's easier than the alternative; I just don't like it.

2) This is a bit trickier, but I think it would completely invalidate the purpose of Mikuru's people as "time police." Right now, from what I understand, Haruhi's "moment of godness" three years ago screwed up the time continuum pretty badly. The future that the time travelers exist in is now in danger of not existing if time doesn't occur as they remember, so they go back in time to force events that no longer seem will happen independently. Otherwise, they face the same spontaneous exclusion from reality that I questioned about happening to Kyon.

If they're not predestined to go back in time, and we accept the alternate reality theory, then they can just sit down and do nothing. Why don't they? Probably because relying on time traveling sliders to just pop in and save everyone is a ridiculously long shot (though I still maintain that logic dictates it's going to happen, since the future as it is DOES in fact exist).
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Old 2010-08-27, 17:02   Link #335
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Kyon's probably of the mindset that "Well I saw myself...means that I go back at some point...sooner or later." Might as well be sooner since he remembers what he said to himself now...that and Mikuru(small) was there, thus it couldn't be that much in the future (or could it...since she's...well, a time traveler). He's not encountered any sliders (other than himself perhaps) so he has no confidence in that possibility...thus he's resolved that he must do this at some point.

That may be predestination, but it also could be a choice. It depends on just how he decides to go back and save himself...or where the idea came from in the first place. Could Kyon's will to live (via either Yuki or Haruhi hax) be strong enough to have willed himself to travel in time to save his bleeding butt. Basically "I need to live...how can I live I'm bleeding out. Oh I could just save myself after I get out of all this" Poof, Mikuru(small) shows up (crying) with Kyon himself also present (also someone to stop Ryoko). Did his will to survive start the time loop, or was it something completely different?

Because so far Mikuru's time travelers seem to be correct in their ideas....seem to be. There is a few gray areas around Haruhi and Kyon and perhaps Yuki.
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Old 2010-08-27, 17:45   Link #336
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2) This is a bit trickier, but I think it would completely invalidate the purpose of Mikuru's people as "time police." Right now, from what I understand, Haruhi's "moment of godness" three years ago screwed up the time continuum pretty badly. The future that the time travelers exist in is now in danger of not existing if time doesn't occur as they remember, so they go back in time to force events that no longer seem will happen independently. Otherwise, they face the same spontaneous exclusion from reality that I questioned about happening to Kyon.

If they're not predestined to go back in time, and we accept the alternate reality theory, then they can just sit down and do nothing. Why don't they? Probably because relying on time traveling sliders to just pop in and save everyone is a ridiculously long shot (though I still maintain that logic dictates it's going to happen, since the future as it is DOES in fact exist).
This is actually my biggest gripe with the series. If I'm understanding what I read correctly, what Mikuru's faction believes time to be should lead them to believe that there is no causality if they were to be consistent with that belief. Yet their mission is to preserve history as they know it? What makes them think that any action they execute in the past will have any bearing towards securing the future they know, which from their perspective is their past that has no connection to anything by their belief?

I tend to prefer things simple, and a predestinarian view isn't so ugly a concept to me.

I do like that the series dealt with the loop issue by treating changes to history as divergent realities, though I don't suppose it would be safe to discuss that much further on this thread.
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Old 2010-08-27, 21:05   Link #337
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Eh, he just fulfilled the role of "guy who explains to the audience what's going on," like he always does.
More like "guy who offers an explanation to the audience of what's going on". A subtle but important distinction. Itsuki isn't necessarily right all the time...

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This is actually my biggest gripe with the series. If I'm understanding what I read correctly, what Mikuru's faction believes time to be should lead them to believe that there is no causality if they were to be consistent with that belief. Yet their mission is to preserve history as they know it? What makes them think that any action they execute in the past will have any bearing towards securing the future they know, which from their perspective is their past that has no connection to anything by their belief?
The same answer to every other question swirling about the series: Haruhi. With her in the mix, nothing is predetermined, even if it was "before". So when events take place in which the time travelers know what (was supposed to have) happened, they need to ensure that it does. Just in case. If they succeed, great, predetermined event. If not, chalk it up to Haruhi and hope you're around to see the aftermath.
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Old 2010-08-28, 21:10   Link #338
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Oh sure, from the characters' perspective, you wouldn't want her back at all. But from a plot/storytelling perspective, it's a pretty good decision.
I'd like to see Asakura doing more adversarial stuff as a regular opponent/enemy as opposed to always jumping straight to the "gotta kill Kyon" part. It would be more interesting for me to see her actually forming and carrying out plots to get Haruhi to create the wanted information burst instead of just going straight for the same tactic that has already failed.
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Old 2010-08-28, 21:25   Link #339
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OMG, still no DVD release yet? I thought it was set for august!?
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Old 2010-08-28, 22:38   Link #340
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OMG, still no DVD release yet? I thought it was set for august!?
Well I think for certain countries, the release date was on August, but I think for some other countries, they probably extended it to September.
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