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Old 2010-08-26, 23:47   Link #61
Heibi
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Well, now that profanity is dealt with....

Next set of problems:
Huge scene interfering karaoke titles tend to get on my nerves.

During the opening title of the show: Instead of putting the translation of the show up the fansub group puts their name up in a huge font as if the show was made by them.
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Old 2010-08-27, 01:03   Link #62
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Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
Fascinating In no way did I mention any of those three categories of characters.
That's right, you didn't. Instead, you made a very unspecific statement.

Quote:
I'll occasionally see profanity used in fansubs when the speaker is unlikely to speak that way either because of their personality, character type, or situational context. But to be honest... if the original dialog didn't have it, there's not usually a reason to add it. Basically, such antics start trending towards "joke subs" or "What's Up, Tiger Lilly?" rewrites.
...it is because of flavor that certain characters don't cuss, and it is also because of flavor that there are times when profanity gets added.

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Strangely, there's some correspondence between effort and time-to-release
No actually, there's not.
A release that takes a week can still be complete shit, have errors, whatever.
I think what you'd really like to say is that people need to be more competent to begin with.
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Old 2010-08-27, 01:45   Link #63
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Originally Posted by jfs View Post
Edit: Should also quickly respond to getfresh.

I'm all for re-introducing notes for terms that don't translate well, at least the first couple times they appear in a given series.
However, I'm also for not making overly wapanese subtitles, if you can get all the required meaning through without using a Japanese word, then by all means translate it straight away! It's much easier to read subtitles if you don't need to do a mental dictionary look-up, or move your eyes to a note at the top of the screen.
Note: Keikaku means plan.
I agree completely. For things noted in a series it is a given they should only be noted once. The average viewer of anime fansubs generally is not a moron so they should be able to remember. Also I am personally against the over use of japanese terms that have direct translations. I think notes should be used more for untranslatable items and background information such as cultural differences or historical reference.
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Old 2010-08-27, 06:28   Link #64
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Originally Posted by Heibi View Post
Huge scene interfering karaoke titles tend to get on my nerves.
As a person who invariably skips OPs and EDs (unless I have to work on them :/), I'm not bothered by them at all. But I can see how they can be annoying for people who do like the OP and ED animations. Thankfully, there is a tendency for 'clean' karaokes these days.
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Originally Posted by getfresh View Post
The average viewer of anime fansubs generally is not a moron[...]
I beg to differ.
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Old 2010-08-27, 07:38   Link #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by getfresh View Post
The average viewer of anime fansubs generally is not a moron so they should be able to remember.
Well, there's your problem right there...

Edit: Oh, too late.
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Old 2010-08-27, 09:19   Link #66
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Originally Posted by Schneizel View Post
That's right, you didn't. Instead, you made a very unspecific statement.

...it is because of flavor that certain characters don't cuss, and it is also because of flavor that there are times when profanity gets added.
So essentially you agree


Quote:
No actually, there's not.
A release that takes a week can still be complete shit, have errors, whatever.
I think what you'd really like to say is that people need to be more competent to begin with.
Interesting but what I'm actually saying is that people who are less competent should be willing to do the research - which takes time. And at some point, almost everyone needs to do some research. This is an activity where deadlines are less important than the prospect of being made fun of.
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Old 2010-08-27, 12:34   Link #67
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Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
Strangely, there's some correspondence between effort and time-to-release If you have to look up a proverb to properly characterize the translated dialog, that took you 3 or 4 more minutes than just thrashing out a grammatically correct but misleading literal translation. Obviously, the more knowledgeable and skilled subbers don't need to research or stew over such things quite as much.
At 3 or 4 minutes a proverb, that's maybe two days for an episode composed of nothing but.

Except for special cases like, say, SZS-tier typesetting, there's one and only one reason that crops up for multi-day turnaround. It's constant passing to people who conveniently happen to be gone. Stewing for 10 hours while the translator sleeps or the editor is at work involves no effort, improves the end product not a whit, and easily happens three or four times per ep in many groups.
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Old 2010-08-27, 13:32   Link #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mandoric View Post
At 3 or 4 minutes a proverb, that's maybe two days for an episode composed of nothing but.

Except for special cases like, say, SZS-tier typesetting, there's one and only one reason that crops up for multi-day turnaround. It's constant passing to people who conveniently happen to be gone. Stewing for 10 hours while the translator sleeps or the editor is at work involves no effort, improves the end product not a whit, and easily happens three or four times per ep in many groups.
Having to wait for people has nothing to do with this. The point is taking your time to get it right. Making sure you didn't lose something in the translation.

I think one of the biggest mistakes fansubbers ever made was the quick turn-around they've come to achieve these days. Now they've created the leech-monsters who expect a fansub within minutes of the raws appearing(exaggeration - but close).

Fansubbers should not rush themselves or give themselves a deadline.
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Old 2010-08-27, 14:13   Link #69
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I never said they were smart, just that they are not morons. Most leechers are massive nerds and otaku who absorb nothing but useless information, i.e. notes explaining the background of an anime, lol.
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Old 2010-08-27, 15:36   Link #70
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Originally Posted by Heibi View Post
Having to wait for people has nothing to do with this. The point is taking your time to get it right. Making sure you didn't lose something in the translation.

I think one of the biggest mistakes fansubbers ever made was the quick turn-around they've come to achieve these days. Now they've created the leech-monsters who expect a fansub within minutes of the raws appearing(exaggeration - but close).

Fansubbers should not rush themselves or give themselves a deadline.
In practice there's little-to-no taking time to get things right, and we both know it.

Now, there's certainly advantages to TL and edit giving their work a second pass, but each of these can happen while the next person is busy doing their thing without stopping a 30-hour or even necessarily an 18-hour release. No one's arguing against this; as a translator I've only worked on two projects that didn't want it, and both were for entirely unrelated ("just go to bed you'll be late for work dammit!") reasons.

Otherwise, if there are serious translation/writing problems for the average show after two afternoons of work, your translator or editor is probably not all that good and should consider spending their time studying instead. In this case either there's three or four other groups that are probably better anyway, or worse you're the only one and by not dropping you're discouraging someone competent from picking it up.

The most common mistakes groups make, imo, are slavish literalism and too many cooks spoiling the broth. Not having a tight but flexible deadline for yourself invites both.
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Old 2010-08-27, 16:30   Link #71
getfresh
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Originally Posted by Mandoric View Post
In practice there's little-to-no taking time to get things right, and we both know it.

Now, there's certainly advantages to TL and edit giving their work a second pass, but each of these can happen while the next person is busy doing their thing without stopping a 30-hour or even necessarily an 18-hour release. No one's arguing against this; as a translator I've only worked on two projects that didn't want it, and both were for entirely unrelated ("just go to bed you'll be late for work dammit!") reasons.

Otherwise, if there are serious translation/writing problems for the average show after two afternoons of work, your translator or editor is probably not all that good and should consider spending their time studying instead. In this case either there's three or four other groups that are probably better anyway, or worse you're the only one and by not dropping you're discouraging someone competent from picking it up.

The most common mistakes groups make, imo, are slavish literalism and too many cooks spoiling the broth. Not having a tight but flexible deadline for yourself invites both.
In my experience doing things in tandem can cause many mistakes to happen as result of updates not being added in proper order or one person not seeing an update and finding out later it was wrong. But that was my personal experience in the past. Everyone has their own system in the end. Saying there is a correct system for all or going after another persons system is just plain conceited. The speed argument should end at "Our fansubs are done when they are ready, and not before!"(Common statement fansubbers used back in the mircx days). There should not be a universal time table constraint that applies to everyone. As long as your work comes out correct the amount of time it is done in was also correct for that sub team, fast or slow. Don't you think?
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Old 2010-08-27, 16:34   Link #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mandoric View Post
In practice there's little-to-no taking time to get things right, and we both know it.

Now, there's certainly advantages to TL and edit giving their work a second pass, but each of these can happen while the next person is busy doing their thing without stopping a 30-hour or even necessarily an 18-hour release. No one's arguing against this; as a translator I've only worked on two projects that didn't want it, and both were for entirely unrelated ("just go to bed you'll be late for work dammit!") reasons.

Otherwise, if there are serious translation/writing problems for the average show after two afternoons of work, your translator or editor is probably not all that good and should consider spending their time studying instead. In this case either there's three or four other groups that are probably better anyway, or worse you're the only one and by not dropping you're discouraging someone competent from picking it up.

The most common mistakes groups make, imo, are slavish literalism and too many cooks spoiling the broth. Not having a tight but flexible deadline for yourself invites both.
Well, as an old fansubber, I must say giving your work a 2nd glance you can definitely avoid stupid mistakes. Our common practice is to watch a show at least twice through after all the timing and editing is complete. Of course our group is an enigma, in that everyone is still around that was around when we started back in 1992. And we take time to get things right. If I'm not satisfied we'll give it a third glance(or at least I will).

Our process hasn't really changed for a while. Translator gets the script to my pre-timing editor, she sends me the work and I time, edit and typeset it. After that I tend to watch it through at normal speed writing down what I see on my own and fixing the timing errors, typesetting problems, and obvious grammar and spelling errors. Later on, when we gather up the group(fresh sets of eyes), we all watch it again and they write down everything they see and I go back and fix it.

We do have a deadline usually, from the time I get the script during the week to that Saturday night. I usually finish all my work in one day. Takes me about 4-8 hours finish a show once I time it.

But every group is different and has their own way of doing things.
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Old 2010-08-27, 17:37   Link #73
Vexx
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Originally Posted by getfresh View Post
... As long as your work comes out correct the amount of time it is done in was also correct for that sub team, fast or slow. Don't you think?
I certainly hope no one is disputing that. I just think the number of strawmen introduced in the last couple of pages are hilarious though. Someone takes a perfectly obvious comment like, "if you aren't sure, take the time to look it up" and turns it into "it doesn't take any extra time to get it right". I'm betting/hoping most of the posters are on the same page though whether or not they think they agree with each other.

Last edited by Vexx; 2010-08-27 at 23:47.
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Old 2010-08-28, 00:33   Link #74
Schneizel
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Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
So essentially you agree
Seeing as how you're the only person in this thread saying something like that, you just made something very obvious. And no, I'm not trolling.

Also I don't see how I could/would agree with you when you said there's "usually no reason" to use profanity that isn't in the original dialog. I always have a reason when I use profanity not originally present - flavor.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mandoric View Post
too many cooks spoiling the broth.
This brings up something I think is a common mistake: I know you guys are talking about "hurr durr do things your own way" but do you really need a translator, a song translator, a translation checker, an editor, a second editor, a timer, a typesetter, a karaoke person, a logo guy, a styler, an encoder, 5 QC guys and your dog to fansub something? ( _ゝ`)


Man, why did Fluff have to get banned. This thread is lacking.
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Old 2010-08-28, 01:40   Link #75
Heibi
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Originally Posted by Schneizel View Post
This brings up something I think is a common mistake: I know you guys are talking about "hurr durr do things your own way" but do you really need a translator, a song translator, a translation checker, an editor, a second editor, a timer, a typesetter, a karaoke person, a logo guy, a styler, an encoder, 5 QC guys and your dog to fansub something? ( _ゝ`)
You need a translator for sure. However, the rest depends on who does what. As for us, we have one person who does typesetting, timing, and script editing. Then we have the folks who do the QCing before release.
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Old 2010-08-28, 02:15   Link #76
Schneizel
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Originally Posted by Heibi View Post
You need a translator for sure.
That's a given, though simulcast editors/encoders are becoming a trend.

My party at the moment is a translator/typesetter (myself), timer, and encoder.
I think it's silly to add in so many people.
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Old 2010-08-28, 02:34   Link #77
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You need a translator for sure. However, the rest depends on who does what. As for us, we have one person who does typesetting, timing, and script editing. Then we have the folks who do the QCing before release.
The thing is, we're talking about common rather than universal mistakes. Sure, a few projects stick pretty close to the ideal (tl, edit, maybe time-ts depending on the show, and one of the above encoding imo) but it's not that common.

Most groups do go through the routine of having a separate guy for every little task, and it shows both in pointless delays and in people doing shoddy work because it's "not their problem", "the styler can fix this sign for me" or "F7 for spelling? QC will catch it." This is bad enough on a smaller team where the translator can quite happily leave word soup and punctuation tetris for the editor, or the editor can inadvertently file off key points because they seem out of place. Scaling it up and giving everyone involved two or three guys to blame just makes a huge unwieldy mess.
Also, in the end there's no "perfect" release and no paint-by-numbers path to being "right". The team, no matter what its size, is putting together some exceptionally low art, and like any art bursts of inspiration and reflections of a creator's naked self shine while committee-designed mush is only useful as a desperate attempt to avoid offense.
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Old 2010-08-28, 09:14   Link #78
TGEN
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Originally Posted by Schneizel View Post
This brings up something I think is a common mistake: I know you guys are talking about "hurr durr do things your own way" but do you really need a translator, a song translator, a translation checker, an editor, a second editor, a timer, a typesetter, a karaoke person, a logo guy, a styler, an encoder, 5 QC guys and your dog to fansub something?
I'm not sold on the idea of two editors, but if you have one editor, s/he's the one who decides what of a QC team's suggestions go in and what doesn't. The dog is there merely for your precious flavour.
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Man, why did Fluff have to get banned. This thread is lacking.
He shouldn't have watched Kannagi. Kills your braincells (bassbins, it's had a remix).
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Old 2010-08-28, 11:00   Link #79
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Back to common mistakes:

A common timing mistake I've been seeing more these days is being behind or ahead on the current subtitle that should be appearing. Basically the wrong line is displayed for who is talking.

Naturally this could have been caught if they simply watched their "finished" product.
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Old 2010-08-29, 12:33   Link #80
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That is indeed annoying as hell. Thankfully, I don't see that very often, as I always try and choose the highest quality subs for whatever shows I'm watching.

But I've remembered another mistake which, while thankfully not being all that common, is still really annoying whenever I do come across it;
Encoding stuff exclusively in the highest quality possible, not taking into account the fact some people's PCs just aren't strong enough to handle their releases. Now, most groups avoid this by offering a lower quality hardsub version in addition to the really HQ one, but I remember trying to watch the first OVA episode of So Ra No Wo To a while back, only to find that every single raw or fansub that had been releleased of it, was in 1080p, which my PC isn't nearly powerful enough to properly play back. Now, someone eventually released a 720p version after a few weeks, but I was unable to get that episode from the group I got the rest of the series from, simply because their only version of it was too big for me to be able to play it properly.
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