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Old 2010-08-27, 18:53   Link #961
Jan-Poo
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Claire simply enumerated all the various mysteries that needed to be solved from EP1 to EP4, she didn't say anything else.

Will only gave cryptic answers, but supposedly those were clear enough for Claire to understand that Will actually understood the tricks.

Since Claire didn't actually wanted to win but just to see all of her mysteries solved, Will's answers were good enough for her, a battle of red and blue text wasn't necessary. A common understanding that the mysteries were solved was good enough. Red text only exist for the purpose of bringing the detective back on the right track after all.

Once Will's job was done, Claire could finally die and rest in peace.
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Old 2010-08-27, 19:05   Link #962
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Alternately, Will didn't need a handicap.
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Old 2010-08-27, 19:31   Link #963
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"Did Sherlock Holmes have blue or red? No. He solved everything in pure black!"
Let me pretend that's what Will's situation was like.
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Old 2010-08-27, 19:40   Link #964
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Battler never used blue text until EP4. While he never won a game he did win a few battles.
As a matter of facts, blue text has never been necessary to solve a mystery to begin with.
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Old 2010-08-27, 19:42   Link #965
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Blue is actually strategically interesting but was never actually used in the manner it was intended because Battler isn't very good at what he's doing.

So although he didn't need it, it could have been useful if he knew what he was doing with it. And for that he has only himself to blame because Beatrice and Ange explained it pretty damn clearly.
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Old 2010-08-27, 19:53   Link #966
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Bah... I think blue is only really necessary when you don't have a cooperating witch to play with. The only thing blue does is to force a witch to give an answer in red or fall victim of excruciating pain. But until that point Beatrice either answered in red or gave up, so in a way she did the same she would have done if Battler used blue, except she didn't receive any injury.

The shotgun system is also a brute force method that really doesn't sound cool in my book.
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Old 2010-08-27, 20:02   Link #967
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The blue is useful because it can force an answer, but otherwise using it is just Jerk White Text. It seems like there really ought to be a rule about how often it can be used, but oh well.
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Old 2010-08-27, 21:00   Link #968
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But it's pointless against a witch that would give you an answer anyway, plus it isn't even true that it forces a witch to give an answer. The witch can simply choose to endure the pain and not answer, as it happened in EP4.

For Battler it didn't change a thing, Beatrice kept on giving the answers she wanted to answer and didn't give the answers she didn't want to give. There was just more blood involved.
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Old 2010-08-27, 21:02   Link #969
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Yes, but that means you win as the human side. It's just the witch and human side have rarely (if ever in Umineko) been trying to earnestly beat each other (at least at the same time).
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Old 2010-08-27, 21:07   Link #970
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Will demonstrated you can win without using any blue, so this is yet another unnecessary thing.

I guess that in the end Beatrice has just been masochistic, he put Battler in a position where he had no choice but to use blue text, whereas their battle could have continued without it.

The only real "advantage" for Beatrice is that Battler had to abide the blue truth rules in order to make his moves.

Oh well it also introduced another way for the human side to lose, but I'm not sure this is strictly related to the blue text itself.
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Old 2010-08-27, 21:18   Link #971
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
Yes, but that means you win as the human side. It's just the witch and human side have rarely (if ever in Umineko) been trying to earnestly beat each other (at least at the same time).
Well if the witch acted as described (enduring the pain) it would just mean that the blue truth becomes another part of the cat box, it doesn't actually become true, it's just undisproven.
In a way that's the Erika way of winning, just screaming loud and often enough, the time will come when you're opponent just gives up. Well, Battler in a way did the same, but it wasn't really his goal to make the witch give up, he wanted her to surrender all her bases...which are true terribly different things, as we saw in Episode 4.
So yes, blue is only then an efective weapon, when the opponent plays along. It's like a sword can be a very efective weapon, but not if your opponent has a machine gun.

Quote:
Yeah, the absence of Knox's 5th suggests not all of Dine applies either.
And I think that is a rather unreflected move to make. Japanese mysteries never had the trope of the 'mysterious foreigner' as often and blatantly as it was featured in English and American mystery and suspense writing. Even authors like A.C.Doyle sometimes used that trope (as for example in The Adventure of the Speckled Band), where something was just explained with 'It's one of the mysteries of the orient...deal with it!!'.
Well yes, you could argue that it was left out because it would make Beatrice#1's existence more difficult...but I think it as just what I said above.

Dine's rules are much more focused on actuall plot structure and methods, therefore it would be kinda cheap to use one and not the other.
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Old 2010-08-27, 21:26   Link #972
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You know, I've been thinking. In this game, Will gave us a culprit and that culprit turned out to be Yasu, right? However, there's something I had forgot and that I've just remembered right now, and that's that the question given to Will was: "Who killed Beatrice?" That's what he was trying to find out. Bern never really asked him to find out the culprit behind Rokkenjima, did she? Of course, EP7 pointed out Yasu was directly related to the incidents in Rokkenjima. But, does that mean she's the real mastermind?

Personally, I think, if we take into account question that was posed by Bern to Will (i.e. "Who killed Beatrice?"), then I think many of the answers we got from EP7, especially most of Claire's testimonies make much more sense.

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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
The only real "advantage" for Beatrice is that Battler had to abide the blue truth rules in order to make his moves.
Perhaps, this can be seen as one of Beatrice's crazy bets. In fact, out of several outcomes, only one was good for her.

1. He finds the truth. Battler wins. Beato is happy.
2. He doesn't find the truth, but beats the shit out of her (i.e. what happened at the end of EP4).
3. He fails and loses the game.

The only way for Beato to win, was that #1 happened.
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Old 2010-08-27, 21:55   Link #973
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What do you mean Knox 5th doesn't apply? Hasn't Kinzo been presented as a crazy enough "Chinaman" with all his described unusal activities in his later life.
To abide by the rules of classic mystery, Kinzo MUST be dead before the events of 1986, otherwise a living Kinzo during the ordeal would clearly be too much of a disruption to the mystery at hand.
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Old 2010-08-27, 22:19   Link #974
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You know, I've been thinking. In this game, Will gave us a culprit and that culprit turned out to be Yasu, right? However, there's something I had forgot and that I've just remembered right now, and that's that the question given to Will was: "Who killed Beatrice?" That's what he was trying to find out. Bern never really asked him to find out the culprit behind Rokkenjima, did she? Of course, EP7 pointed out Yasu was directly related to the incidents in Rokkenjima. But, does that mean she's the real mastermind?

Personally, I think, if we take into account question that was posed by Bern to Will (i.e. "Who killed Beatrice?"), then I think many of the answers we got from EP7, especially most of Claire's testimonies make much more sense.

That's right but there's a problem. Lion most definitely ends up believing that Beatrice (in other words the herself of another world) is the culprit and mastermind behind the rokkenjima massacre. Why Will never clarified this misunderstanding? Also Claire herself confirms it.
In my opinion Beatrice is just the culprit of the fictional serial murder mystery she created, and she did it because she wanted Battler to understand her heart. In order to understand the whydunnit of a crime you need to understand the heart of the culprit. So in other words I don't believe that Beatrice is actually the responsible of the Rokkenjima explosion.
However why nobody cared to tell Lion all of this? Why they let her believe that she had more than 99% chances to become the mass murderer of her whole family?
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Old 2010-08-27, 22:31   Link #975
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However why nobody cared to tell Lion all of this? Why they let her believe that she had more than 99% chances to become the mass murderer of her whole family?
Because all that info may have been reserved for EP8.
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Old 2010-08-27, 23:01   Link #976
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
However why nobody cared to tell Lion all of this? Why they let her believe that she had more than 99% chances to become the mass murderer of her whole family?
Maybe...she wasn't the one who would murder her whole family?

-OR-

Bern never got around to saying it. It should have been on the list of things to tell Lyon: "Oh, hey, by the way, did you know that you end up murdering your whole entire family and feed their corpses to demon goats all because you took a 12 year old's promise too seriously?*Ahahaha.wav*"
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Old 2010-08-27, 23:20   Link #977
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And I think that is a rather unreflected move to make. Japanese mysteries never had the trope of the 'mysterious foreigner' as often and blatantly as it was featured in English and American mystery and suspense writing. Even authors like A.C.Doyle sometimes used that trope (as for example in The Adventure of the Speckled Band), where something was just explained with 'It's one of the mysteries of the orient...deal with it!!'.
Well yes, you could argue that it was left out because it would make Beatrice#1's existence more difficult...but I think it as just what I said above.

Dine's rules are much more focused on actuall plot structure and methods, therefore it would be kinda cheap to use one and not the other.
Yes, yes, we get it, you're an expert. I'm not really comfortable relying on fancy academical book-learnin' when the author is explicitly writing a genre-busting work. There's also a number mismatch, and all that.

So then what was Will's answer to the actual question, anyway? Who killed Beatrice? Answering the question of who Beatrice may be is a hint, but does it actually demonstrate her "killer?"

Or was this a big ego trip for Bernkastel, with the answer "me?"
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Old 2010-08-27, 23:28   Link #978
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So then what was Will's answer to the actual question, anyway? Who killed Beatrice? Answering the question of who Beatrice may be is a hint, but does it actually demonstrate her "killer?"
I think answering who Beatrice is demonstrates her killer, since this person is the one who created Beatrice. Now, I believe, if we follow the love showdown in EP6, then we may be able to understand why this person killed Beatrice.
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Old 2010-08-28, 02:06   Link #979
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Yes, yes, we get it, you're an expert. I'm not really comfortable relying on fancy academical book-learnin' when the author is explicitly writing a genre-busting work. There's also a number mismatch, and all that.
Well, many people here are throwing mathematical, physical or chemical equations and technical facts on military history around, to try and prove why or why not explosions, WWII stories or Italians on Rokkenjima might or might not be true. So I hope you excuse, if I'm offended at you telling me off for raising that point.
In the end every guess made regarding the internal logic of Umineko might turn out wrong, because maybe Ryukishi won't abide by any of them. So while some find musing about genre-rules annoying, others don't care much for why it could only be 620t of explosives instead of 900.

And where exactly is the number mismatch you say?!

Quote:
So then what was Will's answer to the actual question, anyway? Who killed Beatrice? Answering the question of who Beatrice may be is a hint, but does it actually demonstrate her "killer?"
As far as I understood the whole excercize of EP7, the ''killer'' was basically everybody who would be involved in furthering the legend of the golden witch in any other world.
The Golden Witch Beatrice is only born, because so many people are dependant on her existence. Back in 1945 Kinzo created her because he needed to keep people away from Rokkenjima and some excuse to explain his sudden wealth, while at the same time creating a diversion to smuggle Beatrice Castigliani into the country.
The 2nd Beatrice was kept under the same cover of legend, so that nobody might venture into the forest and find her, while she herself was also confined in a similar manner.
And with the 3rd Beatrice it would start to split into 2 pathes. In the worlds we've seen so far, the witch lives on, but in Rion's world there is no reason to keep the witch alive and so they 'killed her off'. That's why the mystery can exist without there being a body, because Beatrice was never confined to a single body and in the moment she wasn't necessary anymore, she died and was buried by all the people who came in contact with her.
So as far as I understood it, there cannot be a 'Murder of the Golden Witch', because there never actually was a Golden Witch.

So the question for me isn't as much, who let Beatrice die in Rion's world, but who wouldn't let Beatrice die in the scenarios we've witnessed so far.
Because even if Shannon or Kanon (or both) was Beatrice, leaving with George or Jessica would have marked an end to the necessity of the legend.
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Old 2010-08-28, 02:10   Link #980
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Well, many people here are throwing mathematical, physical or chemical equations and technical facts on military history around, to try and prove why or why not explosions, WWII stories or Italians on Rokkenjima might or might not be true. So I hope you excuse, if I'm offended at you telling me off for raising that point.
In the end every guess made regarding the internal logic of Umineko might turn out wrong, because maybe Ryukishi won't abide by any of them. So while some find musing about genre-rules annoying, others don't care much for why it could only be 620t of explosives instead of 900.

And where exactly is the number mismatch you say?!


As far as I understood the whole excercize of EP7, the ''killer'' was basically everybody who would be involved in furthering the legend of the golden witch in any other world.
The Golden Witch Beatrice is only born, because so many people are dependant on her existence. Back in 1945 Kinzo created her because he needed to keep people away from Rokkenjima and some excuse to explain his sudden wealth, while at the same time creating a diversion to smuggle Beatrice Castigliani into the country.
The 2nd Beatrice was kept under the same cover of legend, so that nobody might venture into the forest and find her, while she herself was also confined in a similar manner.
And with the 3rd Beatrice it would start to split into 2 pathes. In the worlds we've seen so far, the witch lives on, but in Rion's world there is no reason to keep the witch alive and so they 'killed her off'. That's why the mystery can exist without there being a body, because Beatrice was never confined to a single body and in the moment she wasn't necessary anymore, she died and was buried by all the people who came in contact with her.
So as far as I understood it, there cannot be a 'Murder of the Golden Witch', because there never actually was a Golden Witch.

So the question for me isn't as much, who let Beatrice die in Rion's world, but who wouldn't let Beatrice die in the scenarios we've witnessed so far.
Because even if Shannon or Kanon (or both) was Beatrice, leaving with George or Jessica would have marked an end to the necessity of the legend.
Oh.

That's a simple question to answer: Maria.

Maria wouldn't let Beatrice die, obviously.
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