AnimeSuki Forums

Register Forum Rules FAQ Members List Social Groups Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   AnimeSuki Forum > Anime Discussion > Older Series > Retired > Umineko

Notices

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old 2010-08-28, 21:40   Link #1041
Disz
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Floor eh duh?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Will Wright View Post
I seriously go out of my way to make George seem like the worst person possible in any interpretation of the game I have. For some reason I just hate him so much.
*Satisfied*

Disz is offline  
Old 2010-08-28, 22:00   Link #1042
chounokoe
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Düsseldorf, Germany
Age: 30
Send a message via MSN to chounokoe Send a message via Skype™ to chounokoe
Quote:
Originally Posted by TehChron View Post
Actually, we don't even have to go that far, we can just outright claim that since this is Bernkastel's game, it's entirely divergent from the other games up until this point. Or at least an entirely new gameboard constructed by Bernkastel for the sake of trolling Ange for the amusement of Featherine and herself.
But doesn't that sound terribly like 'I don't like it -> doesn't count!!'?!
I still do not want to go down that path, because it would basically make all of Chiru practically worthless in any kind of reasoning.
__________________
愛が無ければ・・・視えない!!
chounokoe is offline  
Old 2010-08-28, 22:00   Link #1043
Used Can
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Quote:
Originally Posted by TehChron View Post
The definition of "Revival" has always been murky at best, actually.

Chick-Beato regains the memories of Yasu-Beato in Episode 6, near the end. Independently of Battler, but also for the sake of rescuing him and understanding herself.

So rather than a "revival", more like a "reincarnation"? In understanding and grasping the true nature/purpose of her own existence, Beatrice is able to complete herself once more? In that case, while it's true that "That Beatrice can not be resurrected", it's more like she...fixed herself?

I understand that the connotation of a revival is someone bringing another back from the dead, so in that case, as it was Chick-Beato that came back to her full self under her own volition, it'd be a self-reincarnation, which is something done independently, I believe.
The problem with this is Featherine's Red:

あのベアトリーチェが蘇ることは、二度とない。

The word used by her for revival is 蘇る, which also works for resurrection as well. She's basically saying the old Beatrice will never be back again.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TehChron View Post
I may just be grasping at straws here, however. So if we put this in perspective of Yasutrice, then that would mean that...Yasu would have fallen in love with Battler again? Or decided to pin her hopes on him again, now that he needed her most?

Either way, the central trait of Yasu-Beato is "Loving Battler", right? Therefore, in order for Yasu-Beato to exist, requires that Yasu be in love with Battler, or else it's simply not the same thing.

So if the death of Beato in Episode 5 is due to the death of those feelings. Then Beatrice's revival would be to those feelings of love being rekindled? In that sense, Beatrice would be the "love Yasu has for Battler from 6 years ago". And Beato's revival at the end of Episode 6 is "The love Yasu has for Battler right now". Including the feelings from six years ago.

I understand that both points Ive made in this post are mostly unrelated...But I put a lot more store in the latter point.

Beatrice is Yasu's love for Battler. Chick Beato is an echo of that, and Yasu's love for Battler would have been revived in full at the end of Episode 6, hence the memories and personality returning.
Well, I think a way to see it would be to remember the 2 Beatrices in EP4 and what we've learned about her creation in EP6 & EP7. We've learned that one girl fell in love with Battler, she waited him for years, but at some point she just lost all hope. I believe we may think of this person as the original Beatrice - i.e. the "Mother" chick-Beato was talking about. This makes even more sense if we remember Yasu was already playing the whole witch thing even before she met Battler. Anyway, after she lost hope on Battler returning, she "transferred her feelings to Beatrice". So, Beatrice's purpose was no longer to help Yasu play pranks and/or idle from her life as a servant, but to love Battler. If we remember, it was at this point that Beatrice no longer looked like Claire, but took the figure of the woman in the portrait. Then she solved the Epitaph and became the Golden Witch.

So, basically, we have proto-Beatrice, which is the one who fell in love with Battler, and final-Beatrice which is the one who received the love towards Battler from proto-Beatrice. In EP4, after battler failed his test, we saw two Beatrices. I believe the one who tested him was probably proto-Beatrice, who hadn't completely given up on him. However, after her failed, she gave up completely and only final-Beatrice remained. However, Battler beat the shit of that Beatrice in EP4, and then after all the events in EP5, Yasu finally gave up, and as a result killed Beatrice.

Now, why can the Beatrice we saw in EPs 1-4 cannot be revived? I believe there are several possibilities. 1) The original Beatrice is from 6 years ago, as time passed she changed too. Thus, she cannot go back to who she was. 2) She has no purpose, if Battler has remembered, then there's no need for the previous Beatrice to exist (i.e. the one who trolled Battler, etc.). 3) She's moved on. 4) Featherine's Red refers to something else. 5) There may be another person who also uses the legend of Beatrice and loves Battler. There may be other possibilities, but I cannot think of any.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Will Wright View Post
I seriously go out of my way to make George seem like the worst person possible in any interpretation of the game I have. For some reason I just hate him so much.
Haters gonna hate.

Quote:
Originally Posted by littlegal100 View Post
I have a small question. For people who believe that the EP7 tea party was just some well made story from Bernkastel, what does it say about that incomplete red truth Bern was going to say?
It's hard to say. Sometimes I even believe that Red didn't even happen, since you cannot back-log to it.
__________________
"The name is Tin; Used is just an alias. I'm everything Shoe Box would like to be." - Used Can of the Aluminium Kingdom
Used Can is offline  
Old 2010-08-29, 00:05   Link #1044
Disz
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Floor eh duh?
EP8:

George is culprit.

Kannon is real.

Shannon and Jessica and all moms fall for Ghoda.

Ghoda vs George.

Ghoda wins and solves epitaph.

He becomes MAGICAL CHEF Ghoda.

Kinzo sacrifices sheep to god.

Ghoda and Battler later grow up to be best friends with Amasuka and go on great gun action adventure as the three musketeers.

Yes!
Disz is offline  
Old 2010-08-29, 00:09   Link #1045
TehChron
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by Disz View Post
EP8:

George is culprit.

Kannon is real.

Shannon and Jessica and all moms fall for Ghoda.

Ghoda vs George.

Ghoda wins and solves epitaph.

He becomes MAGICAL CHEF Ghoda.

Kinzo sacrifices sheep to god.

Ghoda and Battler later grow up to be best friends with Amasuka and go on great gun action adventure as the three musketeers.

Yes!
That would be possibly the most epic opening to Episode 8 that could be imagined, only to be followed up with a grinning BATTLER telling Kid-Ange "Got ya there didnt I? Ihihihihihi!"
TehChron is offline  
Old 2010-08-29, 00:13   Link #1046
Disz
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Floor eh duh?
Quote:
Originally Posted by TehChron View Post
That would be possibly the most epic opening to Episode 8 that could be imagined, only to be followed up with a grinning BATTLER telling Kid-Ange "Got ya there didnt I? Ihihihihihi!"
If that were to happen I would punch a pregnant lady in the stomach.Then cry myself to sleep.
Disz is offline  
Old 2010-08-29, 00:19   Link #1047
TehChron
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by Disz View Post
If that were to happen I would punch a pregnant lady in the stomach.Then cry myself to sleep.
Yes.

YES

Such trolling is indeed something to look forward to after all this time. It's high time Ryukishi pulled out all the stops here, we need something on the same level as Akasaka appearing out of nowhere and demolishing an entire detachment of goons single-handed.

Hope being fulfilled? Psh?

Love? Boring.

Murder? Passe'.

Umineko has always had trolling at it's heart, it's time Ryukishi took off the gloves and show us what hes really made of.

Last edited by TehChron; 2010-08-29 at 00:20. Reason: Clarification
TehChron is offline  
Old 2010-08-29, 07:22   Link #1048
Jan-Poo
別にいいけど
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
Quote:
Originally Posted by chounokoe View Post
But doesn't that sound terribly like 'I don't like it -> doesn't count!!'?!
I still do not want to go down that path, because it would basically make all of Chiru practically worthless in any kind of reasoning.
But I always said from the time I developed my author theory that red truths only refer to the truth of the games when they are related to events that happens in the games.

It's not like I'm changing anything because I don't want to accept Bern's story.

Yeah, I don't think Bern's story is true and I don't like it one bit, but I'm not creating any new theory to bypass that red truth. Simply using what I've always thought about red truth and author theory, that statement Bern said only means "so far I haven't shown any fake scene", which I can totally believe.

As for her statement that she's not the gamemaster, how can I believe her, when in the ura tea party you clearly see her behind a chessboard?

Plus why Will used quotation marks when referring to Bern's "truth"?

And if it wasn't enough BATTLER tells Ange that the truth about Rokkenjima isn't a scary story.

I think there's more than enough here to doubt what Bern's has shown to Lion and Ange.
__________________

Jan-Poo is offline  
Old 2010-08-29, 11:06   Link #1049
ijriims
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: HK, China
Hmm... in the ???, I suppose Bern took the chessboard from Featherine and said she hadn't been a GM at all, so she had to make her own EP8 and gave the red text "this story will not be given a happy end"

You could say Featherine was the GM (観劇の魔女たち) or there was no GM. But Bern had no reason to lie behind the scene in the ???.
__________________
Kırie, eléison

Battler, you have already known it, right?

Without Love, it cannot be seen.
ijriims is offline  
Old 2010-08-29, 11:50   Link #1050
Jan-Poo
別にいいけど
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
I don't think this is what Bern meant there. The way I see it she simply said she wasn't done being the gamemaster or that she didn't really mastered the game the way she wanted to.

Also Featherinne clearly stated in EP6 that she wanted Bern to be the GM of EP7. What do we do about that? Forget it was ever said?
__________________

Jan-Poo is offline  
Old 2010-08-29, 11:56   Link #1051
ArcticHelm
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Well according to Featherine, Bern wasn't simply the GM, but her "reader" which seems to imply that all the information was from Featherine herself and Bern was just there to spin it into the episode. Perhaps Bern had conclusions of her own that weren't involved in the story?
ArcticHelm is offline  
Old 2010-08-29, 12:06   Link #1052
Jan-Poo
別にいいけど
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
Was it actually ever said? Bern was Featherinne's miko, but I don't remember that the term "reader" was ever used for Bern.
__________________

Jan-Poo is offline  
Old 2010-08-29, 12:10   Link #1053
ArcticHelm
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
It's possible I could be remembering incorrectly, I'll look for it again.


Edit: Bern says that she's the reader, and that the answers will be strangely interpreted since she has no love. Featherine goes further to say she can be the GM of the tale, and that she only cares about the answers not how they're presented as a tale. I suppose it matters if you think "reader of the answers" and "GM of the tale" are mutually exclusive or not, although I'm not necessarily sure they are exclusive.
ArcticHelm is offline  
Old 2010-08-29, 18:09   Link #1054
EndlessMugen
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
There is one thing to ask of a trolling Ryukishi, what will appear in Umineko Daybreak?
EndlessMugen is offline  
Old 2010-08-29, 18:33   Link #1055
momobunny
◔ ◡ ◔
*Artist
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: ImaginaryLand
Age: 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by EndlessMugen View Post
There is one thing to ask of a trolling Ryukishi, what will appear in Umineko Daybreak?
You'd have to ask if it'll come to exist first.
__________________

momobunny is offline  
Old 2010-08-30, 03:39   Link #1056
Gohan78
Awakened One
 
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Northern Italy
Quote:
Originally Posted by Used Can View Post
The problem with this is Featherine's Red:

あのベアトリーチェが蘇ることは、二度とない。

The word used by her for revival is 蘇る, which also works for resurrection as well. She's basically saying the old Beatrice will never be back again.
Red Truth concerning meta characters is tricky. What does it mean for a fictional character to be "dead"?
I think it means that the original author won't write the character anymore.
In this case, Yasu is satisfied that Battler reached the truth and has no need to play Beatrice anymore. Battler can make his own Beatrice with "magic" (=imagination) but she will never be the same as the original. Similarly, I can write a Sherlock Holmes novel but he will never be Doyle's Holmes, even if I understood his character perfectly.
__________________
Tibi, magnum Innominandum,
signa stellarum nigrarum
et bufaniformis Sadoquae sigilim.
(De Vermis Mysteriis)
Gohan78 is offline  
Old 2010-08-30, 15:00   Link #1057
Smeckledorf
Intellectual Rapist
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: 3 12151805142615
Quote:
Originally Posted by chounokoe View Post
But doesn't that sound terribly like 'I don't like it -> doesn't count!!'?!
I still do not want to go down that path, because it would basically make all of Chiru practically worthless in any kind of reasoning.
I wouldn't say that. I also discount Bernkastel's truth. That truth lacks similarity to most of the games we have seen up to this point, I am not going to say that Kyrie and Rudolph have not killed anyone in any other game but take a look back to the original 4 games. To me, we see some of 3 and 4 in Bern's truth but anything we saw in episodes 1 and 2 is pretty much ignored.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
And if it wasn't enough BATTLER tells Ange that the truth about Rokkenjima isn't a scary story.

I think there's more than enough here to doubt what Bern's has shown to Lion and Ange.
But Battler has a reason to lie.
__________________
Smeckledorf is offline  
Old 2010-08-30, 15:10   Link #1058
Renall
BUY MY BOOK!!!
 
 
Join Date: May 2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by Smeckledorf View Post
But Battler has a reason to lie.
But ryukishi doesn't, unless it's the most pointed and important lie in the entire series that makes the right answer click properly and the lie is really easy to spot.

He has a reason to lie, but he can't, or there'd be riots.
__________________
Redaction of the Golden Witch
I submit that a murder was committed in 1996.
This murder was a "copycat" crime inspired by our tales of 1986.
This story is a redacted confession.

Blog (VN DL) - YouTube Playlists
Battler Solves The Logic Error
Renall is offline  
Old 2010-08-30, 15:44   Link #1059
Number1-Syaoran-Fan
Your's In Gold, Beatrice
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
I have a question. Don't judge me... Who is Yasu?
__________________

"I... I really like your bow."
Number1-Syaoran-Fan is offline  
Old 2010-08-30, 15:55   Link #1060
Oliver
Back off, I'm a scientist
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: In a badly written story.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Number1-Syaoran-Fan View Post
I have a question. Don't judge me... Who is Yasu?
Is that a "I didn't read Ep7 and I want to know what the word refers to anyway" question, or a more deep and metaphysical question about the nature of this personage? It's seriously hard to tell.

"Yasu" is the nickname of a certain character, derived from the last name "Yasuda" who is a Fukuin student selected for service at Ushiromiyas at a tender age of six (sounds like someone we know, right?) and is later claimed by other characters to be "the man from 19 years ago", the surviving baby Natsuhi dropped off the cliff. Most of Ep7 is devoted to the life story of that character, who takes over much of Shannon's previously known biographical details. That "Yasu" eventually goes on to become Beatrice through solving the epitaph and being acknowledged by Kinzo as the only child of Beatrice-2 and Kinzo himself. (And thus both Kinzo's child and grandchild, yes.)

The text remains weasely about whether "Yasu" is equivalent to Shannon or Kanon or not, because at least once a character refers both to Shannon and Yasu as distinct people in the same sentence. It does apparently want us to believe it's the hypothetical character who plays both Shannon and Kanon, but it is not quite conclusive on the subject.

"Yasu" is also the name of the culprit in a very famous ancient murder mystery text adventure game for NES and other machines of that era, so the name is clearly a reference.
__________________
"The only principle that does not inhibit progress is: anything goes."
— Paul K. Feyerabend, "Against Method: Outline of an Anarchistic Theory of Knowledge"

This link has been determined hazardous for the spoiler averse
by the Department of Education.
(updated 2010-08-24)
Oliver is offline  
Closed Thread

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 19:55.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
We use Silk.