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Old 2010-07-02, 12:03   Link #401
Ithekro
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She did say to Kyon when he asked her why she didn't tell him before hand, that if she had the errors would have just erased his memory of it and changed the situation anyway. Also she said there was no gaurantee that she hadn't done that already. Just like she said there was no proof she was telling the truth to Kyon about everything in Sigh.

So it is possible that she did tell Kyon at some point, but he won't remember it.

Also while Yuki believes in free will, she also knows when something is unavoidable...at least until post-Dispapearance...due to her synchronization with herself. Though via Endless Eight she also knows that different events can happen even on a small scale if the same viables are presented repeatedly.
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Old 2010-07-02, 16:10   Link #402
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Agreed on the Disappearance being unavoidable. If she could have changed it, she would have, as you suggested, even though she knew how and when it would happen (the "how" being nebulous, as she knew it was because of the "errors", but still didn't know enough about those "errors" to keep them from occurring).

Let me see if I can put it into what is likely more familiar terms... Let's say you're a respected and prodigiously intelligent scientist in an extremely advanced society, yet for all your brains and scientific abilties, you're able to do no more than predict the upcoming destruction of your planet by [sources vary], and do nothing about it directly, because you left your fix for [sources vary] in your other pants, with your time machine. That's Yuki prior to Disappearance, with the impending error build-up. Now, let's say that despite your inability to combat the problem directly, you can make sure that your society lives on, by sending your infant son to a planet far far away where the yellow sun will yadda-yadda-yadda... That's letting Kyon keep his memories. Now let's say that—purely hypothetically, mind you—somewhere down the road, that infant son grows up on that other planet to be a widely loved helper of society who flies around in tights and a cape, wearing his underwear on the outside, and through his travels, comes across the ticket you left him to pick up your other pants from the cleaners. That's the Emergency Escape Program. Get it now? ^_^
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Old 2010-07-03, 16:41   Link #403
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Wait, wait wait. Did you just compare Kyon to Superman?
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Old 2010-07-05, 08:51   Link #404
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Originally Posted by Ithekro View Post
Wait, wait wait. Did you just compare Kyon to Superman?
Given that Superman's an alien, Haruhi would love that.


I get quigon's point. It's a fairly accurate analogy, actually.
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Old 2010-07-05, 08:59   Link #405
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His girls would probably find the comparison apt.

But this whole Yuki foreknowledge/free will discussion has been beaten to death long before.
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Old 2010-08-30, 09:32   Link #406
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Let us put ourselves in Yuki’s shoes for a minute, we know that we will do an error in the future but is unable to stop the error from actually occurring. As time passes by, she get closer to committing the error and her foreknowledge of the future is gone. Soon, Yuki knows something will cause her to change her current mindset and make her go astray. That is probably a very scary possibility and she must have been trying very hard to prevent it to no avail. And then, time began to continually loop around her, no one is actually getting hurt and the IDTE is still getting their data. Thus, Yuki allows the loop to continue with minimum interference in her part. No matter how much boredom Yuki will get from undergoing this loop, it is familiar and safe and as long that time is looping disappearance won’t happen.

The sad thing about this is it’s because of endless eight that Yuki got those errors that caused said disappearance. Thus, by trying to prevent disappearance from happening endless eight occurred which made disappearance happen. When you think about it, is it no wonder Yuki sealed the ability to synchronize...
That's a very interesting way of looking at it. I'd like to believe it because it's a very cool way of interpreting things, but I also think it's flawed. Remember, E8 isn't some black hole for Yuki where she doesn't know what will happen or how long it will last. Her memories persist throughout each iteration, so it only makes sense that she could synchronize with herself over those 600 years.

Yuki's not trying to change or prevent the future. She never does that. In fact, like the time travelers, she feels forced to act a certain way because she knows that's how she'll act. She knows she'll go through 15000-something iterations of summer, so when it gets to that point, she just accepts it.

We think it's bad to go back in time and screw up the past, because it might change the present and the future. We generally have no similar reservations about changing the future, because hey, it's the future. Who know what'll happen? But in the Haruhiverse, where we KNOW future time travelers exist, everyone is in the "past" for those people. Yuki can't allow herself to change their present, because it could have serious repercussions on her present.

It's weird, because there's that concept of predestination that defines character growth. Nothing Yuki does is anything but living out how she "knows" things will happen. She's only developing because it's predetermined that she'll develop, and she only lets E8 continue because she knows she'll let E8 continue. Even if she has feelings about it and about her future, they don't come into play.


Concerning Yuki being Rei 2.0 (a discussion from the first page):
Yuki is undoubtedly based on Rei (look no further than the name), but she's not really "Version 2.0." As someone else said, she's just a different take on the "emotionless girl" trope. Rei is the way she is because she's kept secluded, with limited human contact. She acts like a robot because she's treated like one, and she changes (quite quickly, actually) once she's thrust into real society. I have an image on my computer with all sorts of instances of Rei showing emotion (ironically titled "Rei Ayanami is an Emotionless Doll"). She's completely human and she reacts to many things just as an other human would.

Yuki, on the other hand, is not human. She's a computer, and honestly, the fact that she develops feelings at all (regardless of what Kyon thinks of the matter in Disappearance) is completely ridiculous. Compare Asakuru. She's immersed in the world just as much as Yuki is, and she has no trouble dealing with people. But in truth, her emotions are just what one might expect from a computer: pure facades, and nothing more. She uses emotions as a tool, nothing more. A computer picking up emotions because it's surrounded by humans is as ridiculous as a computer generating fiction because there are a bunch of e-books on its hard drive.

Rei makes sense as a character. Yuki does not. But there's a very crucial reason why Yuki does not, and it's because she's a better character that way. She's better for the stories, and she's better for the audience. I like her the most of all the characters because of it.

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Old 2010-08-30, 10:07   Link #407
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It is interesting though that Yuki looks somewhat surprised when Kyon breaks the endless loop.
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Old 2010-08-30, 13:23   Link #408
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Originally Posted by Gamer_2k4 View Post
Yuki's not trying to change or prevent the future. She never does that. In fact, like the time travelers, she feels forced to act a certain way because she knows that's how she'll act. She knows she'll go through 15000-something iterations of summer, so when it gets to that point, she just accepts it.
Remember, she's an alein android with a mission to "observe". She's accepted that the entire time and Disapperance is the only time she hasn't accepted this duty. You could say she went almost as awal as Asakura in ignoring orders from the IDTE. If she knew about the iterations when say, she was talking to Kyon about aliens and such, she would have aleady accepted it and she would have already been planning to go astray, which I believe was the case. When she got to that point of the 15,000 iterations, she was "observing" even though there was nothing much to really observe. I believe hat by then, she had given up syncronizing since she knew how it would end and since every single iteration was almost the same, all she did was sit around.

Just wanted to point that out, but I do agree that Yuki was forced like the time travelers to act in ceirtan ways which is why Yuki is envious of Mikuru since she doesn't exactly know what will happen.

You probably already knew that though, in which case, I'm just stating it so I could understand it myself .
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Old 2010-08-30, 15:41   Link #409
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Remember, she's an alein android with a mission to "observe". She's accepted that the entire time and Disapperance is the only time she hasn't accepted this duty. You could say she went almost as awal as Asakura in ignoring orders from the IDTE. If she knew about the iterations when say, she was talking to Kyon about aliens and such, she would have aleady accepted it and she would have already been planning to go astray, which I believe was the case. When she got to that point of the 15,000 iterations, she was "observing" even though there was nothing much to really observe. I believe hat by then, she had given up syncronizing since she knew how it would end and since every single iteration was almost the same, all she did was sit around.

Just wanted to point that out, but I do agree that Yuki was forced like the time travelers to act in ceirtan ways which is why Yuki is envious of Mikuru since she doesn't exactly know what will happen.

You probably already knew that though, in which case, I'm just stating it so I could understand it myself .
Othello~.... That sounds way to confusing for me to absorb
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Old 2010-08-30, 17:43   Link #410
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It is interesting though that Yuki looks somewhat surprised when Kyon breaks the endless loop.
There's also a great shot of her in #4 after Kyon does his little "how are you? good? uh...alright then" bit. She has this regretfully resigned expression, which I interpret as, "Oh, Kyon...you know something's wrong, but you don't know what it is, and you don't know what to do about it, meaning I'm stuck here for another loop. Oh well."

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Old 2010-08-31, 02:39   Link #411
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Yuki, on the other hand, is not human. She's a computer, and honestly, the fact that she develops feelings at all (regardless of what Kyon thinks of the matter in Disappearance) is completely ridiculous. Compare Asakuru. She's immersed in the world just as much as Yuki is, and she has no trouble dealing with people. But in truth, her emotions are just what one might expect from a computer: pure facades, and nothing more. She uses emotions as a tool, nothing more. A computer picking up emotions because it's surrounded by humans is as ridiculous as a computer generating fiction because there are a bunch of e-books on its hard drive.

Rei makes sense as a character. Yuki does not. But there's a very crucial reason why Yuki does not, and it's because she's a better character that way. She's better for the stories, and she's better for the audience. I like her the most of all the characters because of it.
To look at her as a computer is a very simplistic, and possibly wrong way of looking at her. At the very least, she's a very advanced artificial intelligence. I personally consider her (and her "species") to be sentient beings in their own right. Thus, I don't see why it's so ridiculous that she develops emotions.
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Old 2010-08-31, 05:01   Link #412
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I see no problem with thinking it odd that she'd develop emotions ("ridiculous", maybe not so much), because as advanced (and clearly sentient) as the IDSE and its interfaces are, they are on a fundamental level so alien to humans that it is unexpected that they would develop human emotions, as Yuki appears to have done (jury's still out on the other two). On a certain level it makes more sense that a dog or cat would develop human emotions, because at least dogs and cats, like humans, are biological. Yuki, even though she may be in an organic interface body isn't, entirely...
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Old 2010-08-31, 05:09   Link #413
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I see no problem with thinking it odd that she'd develop emotions ("ridiculous", maybe not so much), because as advanced (and clearly sentient) as the IDSE and its interfaces are, they are on a fundamental level so alien to humans that it is unexpected that they would develop human emotions, as Yuki appears to have done (jury's still out on the other two). On a certain level it makes more sense that a dog or cat would develop human emotions, because at least dogs and cats, like humans, are biological. Yuki, even though she may be in an organic interface body isn't, entirely...
The thing is though, as far as I know, nobody really has any idea what the IDSE REALLY is like. At least, I don't recall their true nature being mentioned in the anime or the novels. Thus it is premature to assume that emotions are the exception rather than the rule.
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Old 2010-08-31, 12:21   Link #414
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I need to amend my previous statement. It's not at all unreasonable for Yuki to pick up emotions. It's simple adaptation, and for all we know, Asakuru went through a similar (albeit much accelerated) process. If Yuki develops emotion as a way of appearing more normal, that's pretty understandable.

However, what's not understandable is Yuki developing MOTIVATION. It's one thing to win a computer game because that's what will make Haruhi happy and less likely to break things (which is part of your job description). It's a completely different thing to win a computer game because you personally want to be victorious.

When we see other people act, we can empathize because we too are human. We are intrinsically emotional, so we can grow and learn by seeing what other people do. In engineering terms, other people are white boxes to us. However, a humanoid interface like Yuki wouldn't have this insight. She'd have to approach things from a black box perspective; she'd see people acting a certain way, but she wouldn't know why. The best she could do was mimic the emotions she observed. She would develop a database of proper emotional responses for particular situations, and that would be the extent of the adaptation. That's it. How can you acquire intrinsic motivation, something you can't observe or relate to?

And even if that was possible, I don't get why the ISDE made Yuki the way they did. This thing is (likely) the most powerful consciousness in the galaxy. Didn't they do any quality assurance before shipping her out? How could they let a flaw like personal motivation through?
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Old 2010-08-31, 12:46   Link #415
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As far as I know, both Asakura and Yuki were designed that way. Kyon said something to that effect I believe.

I would disagree on other people being white boxes to us. If you have ever been in a relationship this you would know very well You never know what your significant other (or someone you are interested in) is thinking

Again, I would not conclude that Yuki, or the humanoid interfaces are incapable of emotion. I'm not saying that you are wrong, just that we don't know enough to conclude either way.
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Old 2010-08-31, 14:16   Link #416
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I would disagree on other people being white boxes to us. If you have ever been in a relationship this you would know very well You never know what your significant other (or someone you are interested in) is thinking
Undoubtedly. However, I was speaking on a more abstract level. The point is that the stuff that drives us is definitely not something that an observer could just "pick up" (especially since, as you say, we're such a mystery even to ourselves). As an example, no matter how long I observe birds, I will never feel the same compulsion they do to migrate. We call it "instinct" because we don't know what it really is. To Yuki, our reasons for taking action would never be more than "instinct." It's something she can't relate to, and it's something that can't just grow on her.
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Old 2010-09-01, 22:39   Link #417
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There's also a great shot of her in #4 after Kyon does his little "how are you? good? uh...alright then" bit. She has this regretfully resigned expression, which I interpret as, "Oh, Kyon...you know something's wrong, but you don't know what it is, and you don't know what to do about it, meaning I'm stuck here for another loop. Oh well."
Where did you find a 1080p version of that? Or is that some promo stuff for the coming Blu-ray release?
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Old 2010-09-02, 00:30   Link #418
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A bunch of HD images from the second season were included in an episode pack I downloaded. I think they came with the DVDs or something.
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Old 2010-09-02, 06:46   Link #419
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Where did you find a 1080p version of that? Or is that some promo stuff for the coming Blu-ray release?
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A bunch of HD images from the second season were included in an episode pack I downloaded. I think they came with the DVDs or something.
Kadokawa included wallpapers on all of the regular Haruhi DVD discs (not the LE discs) in the set except for Episode 00 and Volumes 1 and 2. 2006 had smaller versions while 2009 had the 1080 HD versions.

And to contribute to the topic, I find it interesting how we never hear about any other ITDE interface's experience through Endless Eight. Was it just Yuki that became so depressed? It wouldn't surprise me given how much Tanigawa-sensei likes her character.
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Old 2010-09-03, 05:16   Link #420
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And to contribute to the topic, I find it interesting how we never hear about any other ITDE interface's experience through Endless Eight. Was it just Yuki that became so depressed? It wouldn't surprise me given how much Tanigawa-sensei likes her character.
Frankly, the only other interface we know of that was functional at the time has only shown up 3-4 times in the entire series, and has been quite tacit each of those times. Even if she did experience something similar to Yuki (and there's no reason to assume she didn't), she's not exactly going to call Kyon up and talk it over with him... And if he doesn't hear about it, neither do we.

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I need to amend my previous statement. It's not at all unreasonable for Yuki to pick up emotions. It's simple adaptation, and for all we know, Asakuru went through a similar (albeit much accelerated) process. If Yuki develops emotion as a way of appearing more normal, that's pretty understandable.

However, what's not understandable is Yuki developing MOTIVATION. It's one thing to win a computer game because that's what will make Haruhi happy and less likely to break things (which is part of your job description). It's a completely different thing to win a computer game because you personally want to be victorious.

When we see other people act, we can empathize because we too are human. We are intrinsically emotional, so we can grow and learn by seeing what other people do. In engineering terms, other people are white boxes to us. However, a humanoid interface like Yuki wouldn't have this insight. She'd have to approach things from a black box perspective; she'd see people acting a certain way, but she wouldn't know why. The best she could do was mimic the emotions she observed. She would develop a database of proper emotional responses for particular situations, and that would be the extent of the adaptation. That's it. How can you acquire intrinsic motivation, something you can't observe or relate to?

And even if that was possible, I don't get why the ISDE made Yuki the way they did. This thing is (likely) the most powerful consciousness in the galaxy. Didn't they do any quality assurance before shipping her out? How could they let a flaw like personal motivation through?
So then you agree with me. You're saying it's unsurprising that Yuki would be able to mimic emotions (adaptation and all that) but actually getting real emotion (you say "motivation" but then tie that to us being intrinsically emotional) is the surprise.

And it's hardly surprising that the IDSE would overlook that possibility. We don't know what they are like, but we know that they had to create the human interfaces just to get an indirect observation/communication path going. As alien as their consciousness must be to ours, their ideas of "emotion" should be just as alien. And they'd certainly expect their more advanced consciousness to be able to overcome any "errors" (like human "motivation" or emotion) that might creep in along with the biological body.
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