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Old 2010-09-04, 13:46   Link #4281
giorno
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Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen View Post
Erm, can you spell 'overkill' ?
overkill??? the target is Fiamma....
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Old 2010-09-04, 14:56   Link #4282
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I've always wondered about the differences and similarities between magic and esper abilities as well, and why the two seem, for the most part, to be mutually exclusive. Magic utilizes arrays or spells to summon power supposedly from a higher plain, while espers utilize their AIM fields to "project their own reality".

The esper side is referred to as the science side and is regulated by scientific principles, but in reality, the only reason the magic side is referred to simply as the magic side is because the abilities magicians use aren't scientifically documented or explained (yet). I'm willing to bet there are scientific mechanics guiding magic just as there are for espers, just a different set that may or may never be explained or revealed.

I've asked before, but I wonder what the difference between an esper's flame and a magician's flame is on the most basic of levels. Do pyrokinetics project a flame from their AIM field spontaneously, or do they speed up the particles in the air, creating friction, and thus fire (the latter would be a far more scientific method than the first; the first explanation wouldn't seem, to me at least, to be any more explainable than magic)? As for a magician's flames, are they created similarly through the array/spell creating friction, or do magicians simply manifest/summon them from a "higher plane"? I suppose Stiyl's Innocentius would fit the latter description, though is it truly a "monster" or just a mass of flame capable of being manipulated?

Last edited by oldmanpoo; 2010-09-04 at 15:54.
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Old 2010-09-04, 15:58   Link #4283
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Originally Posted by Cosmic Eagle View Post
So....?

He's still utilizing another Archangel's power. That of Michael. How is that " La persona superior a Dios?"
I'm interested about this. The goal of God's Right Seat is to attain La persona superior a Dio, right? As far as I know, Lidvia Lorenzetti says in Vol 14 that the steps needed to attain this are:
  1. Cleansing of the Original Sin
  2. Take the 'right seat' of God, the former position of 'Envoy of the Light' Lucifer
  3. Harnessing and using the power of an archangel
  4. Imagine Breaker (?)
For some reason, Fiamma still needs IB to unlock the full potential of his Holy Right, so I'm guessing that IB would be one of the ingredients for the third step. Also of note here is that God's Right Seat's steps for La persona superior a Dio are quite similar to Crowley's plans (for Accelerator) for achieving Level 6 (switch 1 and 2 and they're pretty much analogous):
  1. Posses divine powers (Accelerator, Kakine)
  2. Awakening; realizing the true nature of AIM
  3. Merging with the Imaginary Number Sector; utilizing the power of artificial angels
  4. Imagine Breaker (?) -> Crowley ordered for IB's retrieval, so it must either be quite important, or he's trying to prevent Fiamma from getting hold of it
Please correct me if I am mistaken.



Spoiler for Reply to oldmanpoo:
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Old 2010-09-04, 16:29   Link #4284
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Originally Posted by Cosmic Eagle View Post
Not exactly true......else Gabriel wouldn't have kicked Accel's ass even if he is in Black Wings mode. Or died instantly the moment Hyouka fought it.


It depends on individual level of user.Concentrated enough Telesma (like Angels, artifacts like Curtana Original etc) can kill AIM.
wat? so Telesma is like a counter AIM? Is it to AIM what AIM is to normal magic? I thought it was just that FUZE didnt have a dense enough AIM field to harm gabriel
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Originally Posted by tsunade666 View Post
.................ah I did say magicians. No ordinary magicians can't enter the academy city after the incident in vol 13. Or rather no one tried to go against them unless they want to be slaughtered mercilessly. Well my fault for not pointing out that strong magicians even if they are broken apart can still fight in the broken field like vent but they are literally broken inside out. Angels aren't affected with this one unless a stronger form of AIM field shows up. The level should be obvious on the level that can go against an christian angel.

EDIT:

now that the black wing mode is mentioned. Anyone notice that accelerator can't use it again? or rather he didn't use it against gabriel or did he use it? it's just that no one mentioned him using it in the battle.
i thought accelerator used black wing in the fight, he used it to manipulate FUZE's wings to attack gabriel
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Originally Posted by Cosmic Eagle View Post
Yes but Academy is the core of the AIM field after all, the place where Hyouka and Aiwass reside/manifest. So it goes without saying that the place is magician bane. It's like claiming ESPers can assault St Peter's Basillica and live to tell the tale.
im pretty sure accel and maybe Kakine can go on a successful "instance" as long as Fianma isnt there XD
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Old 2010-09-04, 17:17   Link #4285
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Telesma is essentially "Angelic mana". I suppose you could consider it a sort of counter-AIM, in the same way that ESP and magic are incompatible.

Spoiler for @IceBlock::

Last edited by oldmanpoo; 2010-09-04 at 19:40.
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Old 2010-09-04, 20:43   Link #4286
Cosmic Eagle
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ice Block View Post
I'm interested about this. The goal of God's Right Seat is to attain La persona superior a Dio, right? As far as I know, Lidvia Lorenzetti says in Vol 14 that the steps needed to attain this are:
  1. Cleansing of the Original Sin
  2. Take the 'right seat' of God, the former position of 'Envoy of the Light' Lucifer
  3. Harnessing and using the power of an archangel
  4. Imagine Breaker (?)
For some reason, Fiamma still needs IB to unlock the full potential of his Holy Right, so I'm guessing that IB would be one of the ingredients for the third step. Also of note here is that God's Right Seat's steps for La persona superior a Dio are quite similar to Crowley's plans (for Accelerator) for achieving Level 6 (switch 1 and 2 and they're pretty much analogous):
  1. Posses divine powers (Accelerator, Kakine)
  2. Awakening; realizing the true nature of AIM
  3. Merging with the Imaginary Number Sector; utilizing the power of artificial angels
  4. Imagine Breaker (?) -> Crowley ordered for IB's retrieval, so it must either be quite important, or he's trying to prevent Fiamma from getting hold of it
Please correct me if I am mistaken.



Spoiler for Reply to oldmanpoo:
Yeah....basically that. I can understand Crowley's plan since he's using AIM instead of traditional magic but God's Right Seat basically bind themselves to Archangels and harness their power then via IB boost that power to what they want. But thing is an Archangel is forever inferior to God. So seems like a failed method they are using...


As for Aiwass, I wouldn't say it's the outright top...top tier yes but not top. And top tier only because it makes Black Wings Accel look like nothing and is more powerful than Hyouka herself. How it fares compared to Gabriel or Fianma is unknown. So any of these three (so far) could be the top.

Quote:
wat? so Telesma is like a counter AIM? Is it to AIM what AIM is to normal magic? I thought it was just that FUZE didnt have a dense enough AIM field to harm gabriel
Telesma is the stuff Angels and their power are comprised of. The kanji for it is literally "power of angels" 『天使の力』

And yes, Hyouka could harm Gabriel. That's why Accel assisted by deflecting her attacks onto it. Accelerator himself was nothing to Gabriel, he couldn't even deflect the Sweep.
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Last edited by Cosmic Eagle; 2010-09-04 at 21:13.
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Old 2010-09-04, 21:26   Link #4287
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Originally Posted by oldmanpoo View Post
[...]
I've asked before, but I wonder what the difference between an esper's flame and a magician's flame is on the most basic of levels. Do pyrokinetics project a flame from their AIM field spontaneously, or do they speed up the particles in the air, creating friction, and thus fire (the latter would be a far more scientific method than the first; the first explanation wouldn't seem, to me at least, to be any more explainable than magic)? As for a magician's flames, are they created similarly through the array/spell creating friction, or do magicians simply manifest/summon them from a "higher plane"? I suppose Stiyl's Innocentius would fit the latter description, though is it truly a "monster" or just a mass of flame capable of being manipulated?
Let's go back to basics: AIM, An Involuntary Movement, is the tiny amounts of power a esper give out unconsciously. ie Mikoto's electromagnetic waves that make cats afraid of her, and for a Pyrokinetic it would be heat.

Combine that with 'Personal Reality' and how a esper's level is dependant on how much they can bring their personal reality into the 'objective reality' (for a lack of better term), A esper create fireballs, thundershocks etc from their AIM field that overwrites 'normal' reality. It can be argued all espers are in a way 'Reality Warpers' to a small extent, overwriting the world with their own 'delusions', so to speak.
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Old 2010-09-04, 21:37   Link #4288
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^I suspected as much. It seems esper abilities aren't much more scientific than magic, just somewhat better documented and explained within the Index universe.
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Old 2010-09-04, 21:54   Link #4289
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Do you think that the esper's ability to create their own "personal reality" comes from an outside source? I remember that right before Kakine died he realized where his "Dark Matter", which did not exist in our world, was coming from, or in other words realized that his "personal reality" had a source. Is it possibly like that for all espers?
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Old 2010-09-04, 21:57   Link #4290
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Originally Posted by oldmanpoo View Post
^I suspected as much. It seems esper abilities aren't much more scientific than magic, just somewhat better documented and explained within the Index universe.
Well not quite... the exact quantum mechanics for esper abilities have been figured out to a extent by scientists, as shown in various places in the novels and in the Railgun anime (in one of the episodes in the Level Upper arc) - though scientists haven't figured exactly out why some people can't go past being Level 0 when subjected to the same processes as Level 5 espers. The exact details of this science aren't mentioned in the novels though.

Compare this with Magic, where it's pretty much 'draw this rune to manipluate fire' or 'do X to get result Y', but they don't tell you why this is the case. Mostly magicians just chalk it down to 'I'm borrowing power from God/angel/some other supernatural source', knowing what works to channel these powers but normally leave the details out of it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Suzuku View Post
Do you think that the esper's ability to create their own "personal reality" comes from an outside source? I remember that right before Kakine died he realized where his "Dark Matter", which did not exist in our world, was coming from, or in other words realized that his "personal reality" had a source. Is it possibly like that for all espers?
Just to be picky, Kakine's Dark Matter ability is that he can create materials not present in this world. In Vol15 Ch4, there IS one sentence that stated his power is of another world, but not that Kakine's Dark Matter are material from another world (at least not SPECIFICALLY STATED. I will have to grudingly admit it's not impossible for that to be the case instead).
For all intents and purposes, Kakine creates his 'Dark Matter' out of his AIM field, according to Vol15 Ch4; at least that's how I see it.

Last edited by Flere821; 2010-09-04 at 22:07. Reason: Double post
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Old 2010-09-04, 22:14   Link #4291
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Suzuku View Post
Do you think that the esper's ability to create their own "personal reality" comes from an outside source? I remember that right before Kakine died he realized where his "Dark Matter", which did not exist in our world, was coming from, or in other words realized that his "personal reality" had a source. Is it possibly like that for all espers?
Would be ironic if ESPers actually channel power from gods (Aiwass's side or hell, even the Christian God itself)

But no...I think it more likely that humans have innate powers, kind of like Angels but to a lesser extent seeing as they are God's creations as well. Gather enough of that power in one being and you get an AIM Angel.
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Old 2010-09-04, 22:29   Link #4292
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Suppose it comes down to the degree to which something is understood to be dubbed scientific.

Seems strange though. Considering Aiwass is the one who taught Aleister Crowley magic and (I believe) how to write The Book of the Law, which is a spellbook, she's utilizing AIM fields to manifest in Academy City. Makes it difficult to place her on any one side (magic/science), though she seems to favor Aleister's plans.

Makes me think both sides are intertwined in some way. Speculation on my part.
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Old 2010-09-04, 23:24   Link #4293
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Originally Posted by oldmanpoo View Post

Seems strange though. Considering Aiwass is the one who taught Aleister Crowley magic and (I believe) how to write The Book of the Law, which is a spellbook, she's utilizing AIM fields to manifest in Academy City. Makes it difficult to place her on any one side (magic/science), though she seems to favor Aleister's plans.
No, Aiwass is there just for fun, it doesn't cares if Aleister's plans are falling apart piece to piece.

About the book, I think the same, Aleister is just using his magic theory on science which he got from Aiwass.
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Old 2010-09-04, 23:44   Link #4294
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No, Aiwass is there just for fun, it doesn't cares if Aleister's plans are falling apart piece to piece.
Somehow I seriously doubt that.....else why did it send Hyouka to Russia to fight Gabriel and spread the AIM field there? Feels as if Aleister is acting just the way Aiwass intended
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Old 2010-09-05, 00:43   Link #4295
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Aiwass certainly has some interest in what Aleister is doing. It is somewhat fun after all. But Aiwass is completely unaffected by the out, he neither support or work against it. He simply tweaks it in the that can entertain him.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wilfriback View Post
No, Aiwass is there just for fun, it doesn't cares if Aleister's plans are falling apart piece to piece.

About the book, I think the same, Aleister is just using his magic theory on science which he got from Aiwass.
Looking back at Index's comment when Fuse=Kazakiri appeared for the first time, this really should be the case. At least, I think ESP power has the same methodology as magic. But generated using different types of hardware that runs on different energy.
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Old 2010-09-05, 00:59   Link #4296
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Originally Posted by Flere821 View Post
Well not quite... the exact quantum mechanics for esper abilities have been figured out to a extent by scientists, as shown in various places in the novels and in the Railgun anime (in one of the episodes in the Level Upper arc) - though scientists haven't figured exactly out why some people can't go past being Level 0 when subjected to the same processes as Level 5 espers. The exact details of this science aren't mentioned in the novels though.

Compare this with Magic, where it's pretty much 'draw this rune to manipluate fire' or 'do X to get result Y', but they don't tell you why this is the case. Mostly magicians just chalk it down to 'I'm borrowing power from God/angel/some other supernatural source', knowing what works to channel these powers but normally leave the details out of it.


Just to be picky, Kakine's Dark Matter ability is that he can create materials not present in this world. In Vol15 Ch4, there IS one sentence that stated his power is of another world, but not that Kakine's Dark Matter are material from another world (at least not SPECIFICALLY STATED. I will have to grudingly admit it's not impossible for that to be the case instead).
For all intents and purposes, Kakine creates his 'Dark Matter' out of his AIM field, according to Vol15 Ch4; at least that's how I see it.
kakine's power is to create matter that is not "exists but hasnt been discovered" or "theoretically may exist' but "matter that undeniably cannot exist"

now my physics aint too hawt but i guess maybe somethin like a new element with the same atomic number as an already existing element (current physic laws say only one element can exist with one atomic number no?)

and lol reading chapter 8 part 1 and 2of vol 21. interesting, gabriel seems to attack by flying directly into the ground russian and AC troops a la little meteorite (the novel even describes her as a little meteorite XD)

and (cant really tell with my horrible chinese) Carissa, Grand master knight and maiden of versailles along with their army are all in russia? coz carissa just knocked gabriel out of the sky in russia from 3000 metres up oO and carissa and maiden of versaille suddenly appeared and are now tag teaming it. (their dialogue is quite funny, the girls calling each others barbarians)

apparently gabriel has some sort of "harden" skill, carissa and MoV were chopping its wings to pices but then it put its palms together and they couldnt chop it any more
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Old 2010-09-05, 01:05   Link #4297
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I really don't understand Aiwass and Aleister so I would leave them be on what they want to do.

Quote:
Do you think that the esper's ability to create their own "personal reality" comes from an outside source? I remember that right before Kakine died he realized where his "Dark Matter", which did not exist in our world, was coming from, or in other words realized that his "personal reality" had a source. Is it possibly like that for all espers?
I don't think so.... but maybe but from different source than your christian angel.

Before it would be forever clouded in mystery (persona 4 ) I would like to clear that Accelerator in Black wings mode.... his black wings are composition of telesma . Someone confirm this so reread past post. But when Index saw this she said that it's the same as saint's nature. So YES!!! their are chances but why telesma? As for kakine too. When he realized it. But from what source that comes from.... well his been killed before it's been cleared but Accelerator despite having a sheer force of AIM. Him in Black wings mode had the power house or source of the same as the angels Telesma. I'm not sure on Fuze=Kazakiri because........... Index saw it and understand some parts of it being an ANGEL but because it's been modified by science thus she's an artificial angel.
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Old 2010-09-05, 01:20   Link #4298
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Originally Posted by tsunade666 View Post
I really don't understand Aiwass and Aleister so I would leave them be on what they want to do.



I don't think so.... but maybe but from different source than your christian angel.

Before it would be forever clouded in mystery (persona 4 ) I would like to clear that Accelerator in Black wings mode.... his black wings are composition of telesma . Someone confirm this so reread past post. But when Index saw this she said that it's the same as saint's nature. So YES!!! their are chances but why telesma? As for kakine too. When he realized it. But from what source that comes from.... well his been killed before it's been cleared but Accelerator despite having a sheer force of AIM. Him in Black wings mode had the power house or source of the same as the angels Telesma. I'm not sure on Fuze=Kazakiri because........... Index saw it and understand some parts of it being an ANGEL but because it's been modified by science thus she's an artificial angel.
Kazakiri should be pure AIM......I mean the narrative always calls her Gakuen Toshi's AIM Angel. Plus the fact that her AIM field is anathema to magicians and that she can actually harm Gabriel....

But if Black Wings are Telesma how the hell does Accel not disintegrate or something when his AIM field is second only to Hyouka and Aiwass?
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Old 2010-09-05, 01:31   Link #4299
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Kazakiri should be pure AIM......I mean the narrative always calls her Gakuen Toshi's AIM Angel. Plus the fact that her AIM field is anathema to magicians and that she can actually harm Gabriel....

But if Black Wings are Telesma how the hell does Accel not disintegrate or something when his AIM field is second only to Hyouka and Aiwass?
i really doubt accelerator's black wings are telesma. Aleister plans to make Accelerator a lvl 6 through the imaginary number district, effectively turning him into an artificial angel or something stronger. Since FUZE is an AIM angel it should follow that accelerator who is at this stage like a fledgling artificial angel is AIM based as well

but on the other hand, accelerator was unable to harm gabriel effectively, does this mean that Accel's AIM is not strong enough to hurt gabriel or maybe its because his wings are telesma, so his attacks are the same type as gabriel and so are ineffective?
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Old 2010-09-05, 01:55   Link #4300
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Originally Posted by pikachuwei View Post
i really doubt accelerator's black wings are telesma. Aleister plans to make Accelerator a lvl 6 through the imaginary number district, effectively turning him into an artificial angel or something stronger. Since FUZE is an AIM angel it should follow that accelerator who is at this stage like a fledgling artificial angel is AIM based as well

but on the other hand, accelerator was unable to harm gabriel effectively, does this mean that Accel's AIM is not strong enough to hurt gabriel or maybe its because his wings are telesma, so his attacks are the same type as gabriel and so are ineffective?
I still believe that Accelerator's wings are AIM mainly since his body isn't destroyed whenever he goes Black Wings. And about Telesma not hurting Gabriel.....Carissa was able to down it and break its wings with her early attacks.
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