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Old 2010-09-05, 13:50   Link #261
secretzfan
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Originally Posted by Stormwhite View Post
"Vasto Lordes surpass CONSIDERABLY captain-class shinigami in strength and speed"

Then why the hell could Shunsui not only dodge Starrk's Cero Metralleta, fight on par with him with swordplay and take a cero to the face and be pretty much unharmed?

Yeah, VLs were overhyped. I was one of the people hoping that the Espada were Adjuchas, but as we've seen in the latest data book, most of the stronger espada were VLs. Which leaves Soul Society or the King's Realm to be the next enemy.
Considering you actually thought they weren't VL there is actally none of this having to do Shusui's zanpaktou. I mean come on how can you not say that is what helped him win. If Starrk was weak he wouldn't have defeated the Vizards and cause so much trouble for Shunsui . I am actually one of those who are extremly happy to find out that the top 3 espada are VL's and I'll be even more happy to find out Ulquirra was one too. I mean the pushed Toshiro too the brink and if you saw the manga Halibel still broke out of his icy glacier. Soifon's attack did nothing to Barragan.
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Old 2010-09-05, 13:53   Link #262
dragonmeister
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I've just been thinking (I know, it's not a regular occurrence ), and I've had an odd thought - could Ichigo's new form actually be his proper bankai? That could be why he was able to get Tensa Zangetsu in just 2 days and why he can't seal Zangetsu. I know the Getsuga Tenshou use when "sealed" doesn't make that much sense, but the way that his new form's powers are extensions of Tensa Zangetsu's powers conforms to the examples of bankai we have so far (e.g Byakuya's lots of petals going to 8 bajillion blades, Gin's spear going to 13km, Soifon's 2-hit kill becoming 1-hit kill, etc.), and it also goes with the "bankai is bigger than shikai" rule. It would require Ichigo to be stupidly powerful, but it doesn't require as many new rules to be invented just to make Ichigo more hax than everyone else - it could just be a quirk of Ichigo being part-human, part-shinigami, part-hollow. For all we know "Bankai" could be Tensa Zangetsu's release command. This way Ichigo's learning curve isn't so stupid - if power growth simulates aging, then Ichigo gaining bankai in a human 3 months (several shinigami years) makes more sense, as most of the most powerful captains could probably have learned bankai in 3-4 years if on a deadline similar to Ichigo's (the destruction of much he holds dear).
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Old 2010-09-05, 14:31   Link #263
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It doesn't really matter whether or not they're Vasto Lorde really because...well...they're already dead. And Aizen has clearly proven that he doesn't even need them, so they don't really have any place in the plot anymore (aswell as about 90% of the cast).

The Vasto Lordes were made out to be an incredible threat to Soul Society. And in the end the top three went out before even being confirmed as Vasto Lordes. If Kubo hadn't confirmed it, then no one would've known for sure. Pretty anti-climactic if you ask me.
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Old 2010-09-05, 14:32   Link #264
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Originally Posted by Slayerx View Post
no... Shusui's shikai is NOT and excuse
Pretty much what Stormwhite has just said... Shunsui should have been so HORRIBLY out classed that he would not have had any hope of even laying a finger on Stark

Consider this... Ichigo, without his Vizard powers is a captain-level shinigami, just below Byakuya in terms of strength... yet even while using his bankai, an un resurrected Grimjow was able to comepletely wipe the floor with him. Hell Ulq proved to be so powerful that he could have killed Ichigo in mere seconds if he so desired... it was only by the AMAZING boost of his Vizard powers that Ichigo was bale to stand up to them (and even that was not enough for the resurrected Ulq)

For Stark and Halibel it should have been the same; even worse actually since they are SUPPOSED to be even stronger than Ulq... Every Attack Shunsui made should have been dodged or blocked effortlessly by Stark. Shunsui's shikai would be meaningless since Stark's speed and power would be too great for him to touch him with his blade (much less a specific spot)... and when i say this i mean WITHOUT resurrection... Resurrection itself should have been practically an instant kill

Stark and Halibel should have been so fast that they would have made the SS captains head spin, and should have been so strong that they could have ended their fights in mere seconds...
Yeah this is what made me doubt that even Starrk was the Primera, I mean I know that Shunsui, Yamamoto, Ukitake and Unohana were powerful but Shunsui should've at least had to go bankai to take him out but that would require Kubo being creative and doing more work so screw the idea of VLs being stupendously strong.

I mena Starrk was such a strong VL that everyone around him disintergrated just from his reiatsu similar to what Aizen did, it seems to me like arrancarization just made the hollows weaker.

I wouldn't be surprised if Unohana heals Halibel, Stark and Barragan and the three use Segunda Etapa to help Ichigo fight newly formed 50 foot tall One Winged Butterfly Aizen, this would be the only way to redeem them IMO, that the 3 were simply dealt with before they decided to use their true powers.
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Old 2010-09-05, 14:38   Link #265
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Originally Posted by nicepace View Post
no swords play...strategy...miss the old bleach?! just another raw power up...just like a child's play.
Couldn't agree with you more.
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Old 2010-09-05, 15:00   Link #266
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Originally Posted by Cub-Sama View Post
Yeah this is what made me doubt that even Starrk was the Primera, I mean I know that Shunsui, Yamamoto, Ukitake and Unohana were powerful but Shunsui should've at least had to go bankai to take him out but that would require Kubo being creative and doing more work so screw the idea of VLs being stupendously strong.

I mena Starrk was such a strong VL that everyone around him disintergrated just from his reiatsu similar to what Aizen did, it seems to me like arrancarization just made the hollows weaker.

I wouldn't be surprised if Unohana heals Halibel, Stark and Barragan and the three use Segunda Etapa to help Ichigo fight newly formed 50 foot tall One Winged Butterfly Aizen, this would be the only way to redeem them IMO, that the 3 were simply dealt with before they decided to use their true powers.
Barragan disintegrated, but Stark and Halibel should be lying around FKT somewhere being cut up.

I don't see how they could both die from one slash when some characters survive their arms being torn off, but oh well.
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Old 2010-09-05, 15:19   Link #267
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>enter everyone we didn't see disintegrated.
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Old 2010-09-05, 19:24   Link #268
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Originally Posted by JustRob View Post
I don't see how they could both die from one slash when some characters survive their arms being torn off, but oh well.
I think "Survived getting CUT IN HALF" would be a much more blatant example...
those espada sure are flimsy by comparison

Quote:
Originally Posted by secretzfan View Post
I mean the pushed Toshiro too the brink and if you saw the manga Halibel still broke out of his icy glacier
Actually I find toshiro to be another blatent example to how screwed up the power levels are in bleach...
When he first fought the fraccion, he stated that he felt that they only won because of the surprise factor from their limit break; he thought they were in real deep shit
Then along comes Luppi, temporary espada #6 (who was easily killed by the real #6), who manages to give Toshiro serious trouble and knocks him out for a while; Toshiro beat him in the end, but it was only with a huge surprise attack... and now we have Halibel, Espada #3... she should be VASTLY stronger than the previous arrancar and yet he was still holding his own for the most part... she was stronger than Luppi but it seemed like it was only by a relatively small margin, because honestly, by all logic she probably should have finished him in seconds
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Old 2010-09-05, 20:14   Link #269
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I don't understand why Hitsugaya would of even thought that about Grimmjow's Fraccion. If the Fraccion were a real threat to Hitsugaya and Co at full power...they wouldn't of been one-shotted, even if they were surprised. But that's just imo.
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Old 2010-09-05, 20:28   Link #270
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Originally Posted by Slayerx View Post
... and now we have Halibel, Espada #3... she should be VASTLY stronger than the previous arrancar and yet he was still holding his own for the most part... she was stronger than Luppi but it seemed like it was only by a relatively small margin, because honestly, by all logic she probably should have finished him in seconds
I think he held his own only because they were pretty much fooling around there for awhile, trying to get the battlefield full of water. Plus, Toshiro was a good opponent to Halibel, seeing how they can both find ways to nullify the other's powers.

You also seem to be forgetting Halibel was holding her own against 2 Vizards (who we can assume after 100 years they're on a captain level) and Toshiro, so she was considerably powerful.
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Old 2010-09-05, 20:45   Link #271
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Originally Posted by Slayerx View Post
I think "Survived getting CUT IN HALF" would be a much more blatant example...
those espada sure are flimsy by comparison


Actually I find toshiro to be another blatent example to how screwed up the power levels are in bleach...
When he first fought the fraccion, he stated that he felt that they only won because of the surprise factor from their limit break; he thought they were in real deep shit
Then along comes Luppi, temporary espada #6 (who was easily killed by the real #6), who manages to give Toshiro serious trouble and knocks him out for a while; Toshiro beat him in the end, but it was only with a huge surprise attack... and now we have Halibel, Espada #3... she should be VASTLY stronger than the previous arrancar and yet he was still holding his own for the most part... she was stronger than Luppi but it seemed like it was only by a relatively small margin, because honestly, by all logic she probably should have finished him in seconds
But Toshiro was forced to use his strongest attack
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Old 2010-09-05, 21:55   Link #272
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Originally Posted by secretzfan View Post
But Toshiro was forced to use his strongest attack
This "strongest attack" was replaced by another "strongest attack" as needed against Halibel
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Old 2010-09-05, 21:57   Link #273
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This "strongest attack" was replaced by another "strongest attack" as needed against Halibel
What are you talking about?
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Old 2010-09-05, 22:01   Link #274
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What are you talking about?
The snow/flower attack
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Old 2010-09-05, 22:22   Link #275
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Originally Posted by Slayerx View Post
I think "Survived getting CUT IN HALF" would be a much more blatant example...
those espada sure are flimsy by comparison


Actually I find toshiro to be another blatent example to how screwed up the power levels are in bleach...
When he first fought the fraccion, he stated that he felt that they only won because of the surprise factor from their limit break; he thought they were in real deep shit
Then along comes Luppi, temporary espada #6 (who was easily killed by the real #6), who manages to give Toshiro serious trouble and knocks him out for a while; Toshiro beat him in the end, but it was only with a huge surprise attack... and now we have Halibel, Espada #3... she should be VASTLY stronger than the previous arrancar and yet he was still holding his own for the most part... she was stronger than Luppi but it seemed like it was only by a relatively small margin, because honestly, by all logic she probably should have finished him in seconds
yeah, but weren't Toshiro and co training to become stronger in preparation for the winter war? Considering he's a prodigy and has a great amount of potential that just needed experience, I'm not surprised that he's gotten stronger since Luppi and Shawlong, and therefore can stand up to Halibel.
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Old 2010-09-05, 23:50   Link #276
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The snow/flower attack
Yea but you say one attack was replaced by another when he had only one strongest attack
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Old 2010-09-06, 00:36   Link #277
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You also seem to be forgetting Halibel was holding her own against 2 Vizards (who we can assume after 100 years they're on a captain level) and Toshiro, so she was considerably powerful.
people seem to underestimate just how strong i think the top espada should have been (base don what we saw with ulq and grimjow)... even in a three way match like that, Toshiro himself should have been blown away in an instant; hell he should have never even lived long enough to SEE her resurrection... Lisa and Hiyori should have been the ONLY ones able to fight with her and that's ONLY while their masks were on; loss of the mask would be an instant KO


Though actually the vizards themselves i find to be another point of complaint in terms of power levels... namely that they SORELY underperformed much like the espada... I mean, when Ichigo put on his mask, the level of power he exibited was incredible, he was able to go from getting his ass handed to him to being the one delivering the asskicking... The vizards almost never exhibited that same awesome level of power difference... The power increase they received seemed minimal at best. 2 vizard captains go up against stark and loose, but normal captain Shunsui (who again should not even be strong enough to TOUCH Stark) kills stark in two hits?

Unlike Ichigo the masks didn't really feel like they made all that much of a difference. I mean, Love's attacks on stark seemed like they were not really all that more effective whether the mask was on or off... And i don't recall Lisa or Hiyori doing anything special in their fight; those two should have been so strong with their vizard masks that they would make Toshiro dizzy... Also fighting against a resurrected halibel for even a moment without a mask on should be considered utterly insane, but they do so anyway and don't die in seconds...


Mashiro is the exception to all that though... she's the only one i could see the power difference in; what with her kicking wonderweiss's ass one minute and then getting KO'd in one hit the next... That more or less echo'd how ichigo's second fight with Grimjow went... it's more like what i would have expected from these fights. but no, masks didn't seem to make that much of a difference, and people with no masks didn't have much trouble keeping up with the vizards


Though i guess i could switch up the perspective and say that it wasn't the vizards and arrancars underperforming, but the SS captains OVERperforming, being MUCH stronger than they should have been... ofcourse based on this logic, Toshiro might be able to go toe to toe with Vizard Ichigo

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheRime View Post
yeah, but weren't Toshiro and co training to become stronger in preparation for the winter war? Considering he's a prodigy and has a great amount of potential that just needed experience, I'm not surprised that he's gotten stronger since Luppi and Shawlong, and therefore can stand up to Halibel.
If i recall correctly, there was practially no time between his fight with Luppi and the fight with halibel... it was during the fight with Luppi that Orihime had been captured and i don't think Ichigo waited more than a few days before going after her...

And unlike Ichigo, the SS captains take DECADES to make real developments in strength... if they were capable of improving as quickly as ichigo, dramatic leaps in just weeks, then most of the captains would have reach their peak like Aizen did since most of them have been doing this for over a 100 years...

heh, "it is said that the vasto lorde's are stronger than the average SS Captain; as such an arrancarized Vasto Lorde would be a true nightmare... but give us like a week or two of training and we'll match that no problem"

Last edited by Slayerx; 2010-09-06 at 00:55.
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Old 2010-09-06, 00:38   Link #278
dragonmeister
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Yeah but you say one attack was replaced by another when he had only one strongest attack
When fighting Luppi, his strongest attack was the ice prison thing, but after several months of training and having the desperation to use an experimental technique he couldn't be sure to control, the flower thing became his strongest attack
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Old 2010-09-06, 01:23   Link #279
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2 vizard captains go up against stark and loose, but normal captain Shunsui (who again should not even be strong enough to TOUCH Stark) kills stark in two hits?
Yeah... but I'm thinking a lot of ppl are also underestimating how powerful Shunsui is. I honestly don't have any problems with the Shunsui/Stark fight because 1) Shunsui DIDN'T have such an easy time of it and 2) Shunsui is pretty awesome himself. I remember Toshiro's exposition was something like "A VL's fighting capabilities are above that of A captain."

But while all captains have high power, they're hardly on the same level. There are definitely captains more powerful than others, and I think that power difference goes up exponentially with age/experience. I always thought Toshiro was vastly generalizing by saying "A captain," especially if he's using himself as the average example. Shunsui said that "maybe in a 100 (or was it 1000?) years, Toshiro MIGHT be able to surpass him." Which means that now, Shunsui is vastly MORE powerful than Toshiro, who's already pretty powerful.
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Old 2010-09-06, 01:25   Link #280
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In my belief Kyoraku's zanpaktou just isn't fair as it can kill any hollow
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