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Old 2010-09-05, 01:10   Link #7681
Nobodyman9
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Originally Posted by Hooves View Post
Code Geass is like a combination of Death Note + Gundam

Lelouch tries his best to keep his identity hidden from the world, trying to bring world peace through rebellion. Trying to create a figure of peace "Zero"
Except they completely missed the point of Light Yagami's character.
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Old 2010-09-05, 01:14   Link #7682
Kittenlady
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Lelouch and Light are completely different, they're practically foils of each other. It irritates me when people go on about how similar they are.

Being melodramatic and killing lots of people =/= carbon copies of each other.
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Old 2010-09-05, 01:20   Link #7683
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I completely agree.

Light Yagami was an egotistical bastard with a god complex who wanted to take a semi-decent version of our world and make it into something akin to the Holy Britannian Empire.
With Light as the God Emperor.

Lelouch was a Dark Hero intent on reshaping the crappy alternate Earth he lived on where the Holy Britannian Empire was about to take control of everything.
Lelouch chose to try and make his world into something worth being alive in.

I'd say their motivations were completely different.
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Old 2010-09-05, 02:13   Link #7684
Nobodyman9
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Originally Posted by Arbitres View Post
I agree in all seriousness though. They are intelligent, they are insane, but Lelouch definitely doesn't consider himself god-like/A god. He and Light wear the guise of Justice, but there is something about that.
So the guy who said, "I destroy worlds and create them anew" didn't have a god complex?

Look, I'm sorry, but Light and Lelouch are strikingly similar, almost the point that I would guarantee you that it was Sunrise's intention to make a Light clone. They're both egotistical geniuses who are given mystical powers by supernatural beings and then embark on a campaign to revolutionize the world through questionable methods all while being in close proximity to their greatest enemy.

"Oh, but they have different motivations and backstories."

Oh please. Don't try to give the writers of this show more credit than they deserve. In fact, this is what I was talking about in how they missed the point of Light's characters. Ohba was never under any delusion that Light was anything more than a calloused psychopathic monster, and that's why they didn't make him a sympathetic character. Of course, that's not to say Ohba was against him either. Ohba just showed Light for who he was and left it up to the reader to decide whether he was right or wrong.

But with Code Geass they did try to make Lelouch a sympathetic character and did claim that he ultimately was right in the end. Bite me, Sunrise. "Oh, he may have killed a bunch of people, but he felt sorry about it and he was doing it all for his crippled blind sister" (seriously, why didn't they just give her cancer while they were at it?). You know, he can feel sorry about it all he wants and keep using his sister as a pretense, but don't expect e to have even an ounce of sympathy for him.

"Oh, but he had good intentions."

You know who else had good intentions? Abraham Lincoln. Mahatma Ghandi. Fidel Castro. Genghis Khan. Adolf Hitler. And, of course, Light Yagami. Were they all good people? Not necessarily, and it depends on who you ask. As the old saying goes, the road to hell is paved with good intentions.

So yeah, you can talk all you want about Lelouch was more humble than Light or that he knew what he was doing was wrong, but if he's not going to change and keep doing what he's doing despite it being wrong, then it doesn't make a damn bit of difference.
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Old 2010-09-05, 02:28   Link #7685
Kittenlady
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They also had completely different philosophies and sets of morals. Light was closer to Schneizel and Charles than he was to Lelouch, if anything. I won't deny the obvious surface similarities, but they're still completely different characters.

For example, while Light was essentially was going to try and create a perfect world ruled by fear where no one was allowed to make mistakes or commit crimes, Lelouch advocated free will (harr harr irony), and believed that people should be able to make mistakes and make up for them.

It's implied that Lelouch knew from the beginning that his new world wouldn't have a place for him in it, he knows that what he's doing is wrong, but he does it anyway because he believes it's worth it. Light considers himself a perfect judge and always justified in what he was doing and plans on ruling the world he changes. And he had much less trouble getting over any moral dilemmas than Lelouch, who was physically sick because of it.

And as already said, let's not forget the settings. What seems essentially to be the world we live in VS Code Geass world with an Empire like Britannia ruling a third of the planet.

Similar, but still very, very different. That's why I think they make good foils, if anything.
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Old 2010-09-05, 02:30   Link #7686
Cephei Mordred
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The big difference is, Lelouch probably had more awareness that he was on the road to Hell. Light? Not so much.
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Old 2010-09-05, 03:01   Link #7687
Nobodyman9
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Originally Posted by Kittenlady View Post
A very nice post.
To give credit where credit is due, that was very convincing and well-written post. The way you explain, I can certainly see how the two can be seen as having many dissimilarities.

Anyway, it was Hooves that originally made the comparison to Death Note, and it was me that said they missed the point of Light's character. So yeah, in a way, I guess I was agreeing that they were different.

My point still stands though that, regardless of his intentions or philosophy, and I agree with Arbitres, I can't sympathize with a man who slaughters countless thousands, despite the fact that Sunrise was trying to make me do so.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arbitres View Post
He never said, anywhere, or showed any indication, he considered himself anything but Lelouch. Lelouch wasn't a God.
Aside from when he said, "I destroy worlds and create them anew."
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Old 2010-09-05, 03:04   Link #7688
Cephei Mordred
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I don't know...he certainly seemed to accord God his proper place when he geassed him into pwning Charles.
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Old 2010-09-05, 11:57   Link #7689
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nobodyman9 View Post
To give credit where credit is due, that was very convincing and well-written post. The way you explain, I can certainly see how the two can be seen as having many dissimilarities.

Anyway, it was Hooves that originally made the comparison to Death Note, and it was me that said they missed the point of Light's character. So yeah, in a way, I guess I was agreeing that they were different.

My point still stands though that, regardless of his intentions or philosophy, and I agree with Arbitres, I can't sympathize with a man who slaughters countless thousands, despite the fact that Sunrise was trying to make me do so.


Aside from when he said, "I destroy worlds and create them anew."

I see your point Nobdyman9.
In so far as Sunrise is concerned I agree with you that they were trying to capitalize on the popularity of Death Note at the time and thus in all likelihood requested that Lelouch be more like Light Yagami.

However, the whole "I am the destroyer of worlds and the creator of worlds" is as much Lelouch's style of bravado and flair as it was a serious plan of action.

The world he lived in was horrible, it's no wonder he choose to destroy it and create a new one.

The world Light lived in was like our own and didn't need destroying to save anybody or change to stop some horrible war of conquest or some evil Tyrannical government from ruling the world.

Light actually had it easy in the begining of Death Note.
He was slated to have a good job, a nice career, a decent girlfriend (not Misa Misa, that other woman he knew whose name escapes me at the moment), thus a great life.

Lelouch's life was destroyed by his own father and the Empire it represented.
From a story standpoint that's a pretty darn big difference.

A good example of what I'm trying to say would be from Star Wars.
Senator Palpatine wanted to become Emperor for power and to become essentially a god.

Anakin wanted to stop people from dying and to protect people no matter the cost.

They were both Dark Lords of the Sith, but their motivations and reasons for doing evil were very different.

Lelouch, like Anakin, thought he was doing the world good by committing acts of evil.

Light and Palpatine on the other hand, knew they were doing evil for the sake of a selfish, self-centered goal.

I hope that explains my position adequately?
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Old 2010-09-05, 16:04   Link #7690
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GundamFan0083 View Post
Light and Palpatine on the other hand, knew they were doing evil for the sake of a selfish, self-centered goal.
I actually wouldn't give Light that much credit. Light believed himself to be the ultimate judge, worthy of being called a god.... the God. As the highest moral instance, it was up to him to decide what the world needed - and of course, it needed him. Light did what he thought was completely and utterly right. His moral failure was a failure of epistemic duty, of clinging to unwarranted beliefs born from greed and selfishness. I do not think that Light would ever have acknowledged his less than noble motivations. He only saw what he wanted to see.

In that way, he's the complete opposite of Lelouch, who can not admit to having any noble motivations more than half the time. In the beginning, he says he wants to make the world a better place for Nunnally, not himself, even though it's clear that he has a sense of justice himself, far from perfect as it might be. Lelouch lives the moral dilemma Light so easily avoids by proclaiming himself God - he claims to do evil for the sake of good. I agree that Schneizel is more similar to Light, as he simply decides on a more utilitarian approach and only values the result, meaning that methods themselves cannot be evil. It's actualy a more logical approach than that of Lelouch, I believe, but that doesn't make it right.

Lelouch, unlike Light, is willing to kill with his own hands. He does not put himself above regular human beings by trying to be both executioner and ultimate judge, and he does not proclaim himself God. Even Schneizel doesn't do that, though he says that he will become God if it's necessary. He seems to think that he is, if not God, then at least the best judge around.

Light is pretty much a sociopath, while Lelouch knows guilt and remorse as well as he knows hatred. When Light loses his memories, he actually disagrees with Kira, be it because he's not a complete sociopath without supernatural abilities or because of mere social conventions, while Lelouch simply becomes cynical and decides that he can't change anything, anyway. Even with Charles' influence, he does not completely disegard his beliefs - he just considers "Zero" to be a hopeless idealist. I think he believes in what he does a lot more than Light does once you remove their obvious biases.
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Old 2010-09-05, 17:44   Link #7691
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When you consider the final tally, one's a positive influence on their world and the other is not. I'm not referring to Zero requiem but rather the fact that Lelouch prevented a second anime being wrapped up with a bleeding instrumentality project. That's enough brownie points to pardon a small scale genocide in my book...

Anyway, I'm curious, is there any mention of a civilian bodycount taken for the period during his reign as emperor? I know he was described as murderous tyrant , but that could easily be achieved with propaganda and slight of hand instead of going out earning the title the old fashioned way. Just a thought.
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Old 2010-09-05, 23:44   Link #7692
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Originally Posted by Kittenlady View Post
It's implied that Lelouch knew from the beginning that his new world wouldn't have a place for him in it, he knows that what he's doing is wrong, but he does it anyway because he believes it's worth it.
The only thing implied for sure from the beginning was that he was ready to accept the consequences if they came. I mean, for instance, would promising he would return to Ashford for fireworks make sense otherwise?

As for the Zero Requiem, again, it's true that he could have done something much more peaceful, but only went with it because he fell into ultimate despair and wanted to die. He was sympathetic still, due to the circumstances, just no longer all there in the head. Hence, he became a Woobie Destroyer of Worlds.
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Old 2010-09-06, 01:17   Link #7693
Dr. Casey
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In most respects, Light's a better person than Lelouch.
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Old 2010-09-06, 01:20   Link #7694
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In most respects, Light's a better person than Lelouch.
Say what? Light is an almost entirely self indulgent big baby.
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Old 2010-09-06, 02:18   Link #7695
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Originally Posted by Arbitres View Post
Dr. Casey is either stating an opinion, or is trolling. Either way it may be in you're best interest to ignore them.
Arbitres tells the truth, either it be an opinion or an attempt at trolling. Getting involved in the fight and provoking flame will just cause trouble for yourself.
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Old 2010-09-06, 04:19   Link #7696
Cephei Mordred
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Originally Posted by azul120 View Post
Say what? Light is an almost entirely self indulgent big baby.
Yeah...Lelouch honestly had good intentions, and was fighting against an honestly wicked system.

Light had it good, he just wanted it better.

Now, if people in ghettos were being gunned down mercilessly next door to Light, led by Light's father, then a comparison could be made.
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Old 2010-09-06, 20:43   Link #7697
Cephei Mordred
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I just thought of something else.

What would have happened if, despite her best efforts, Sayoko was unable to get away and got captured by Anya during the school event, and forced to relinquish the hat to Milly?

Would she reveal herself, or would she tell Lelouch he had to take this upon himself, or is there a third option here?
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Old 2010-09-07, 02:40   Link #7698
Kittenlady
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nobodyman9 View Post
To give credit where credit is due, that was very convincing and well-written post. The way you explain, I can certainly see how the two can be seen as having many dissimilarities.

Anyway, it was Hooves that originally made the comparison to Death Note, and it was me that said they missed the point of Light's character. So yeah, in a way, I guess I was agreeing that they were different.

My point still stands though that, regardless of his intentions or philosophy, and I agree with Arbitres, I can't sympathize with a man who slaughters countless thousands, despite the fact that Sunrise was trying to make me do so.
Awww, thank you. And sure, works for me!

We'll have to agree to disagree on the last bit. For me, it's fiction, all I care about is how interesting the characters are, regardless of their actions. I actually can't remember the last time I sympathised with a character as much as Lelouch, even if I did disagree with a lot of things he did.

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Originally Posted by azul120 View Post
The only thing implied for sure from the beginning was that he was ready to accept the consequences if they came. I mean, for instance, would promising he would return to Ashford for fireworks make sense otherwise?
Considering the situation? That's pretty much the same thing. And Lelouch is a lying liar who lies. Obviously, we don't know either way, but I think he knew he wouldn't be able to keep that promise.

Quote:
Originally Posted by vk531 View Post
When you consider the final tally, one's a positive influence on their world and the other is not. I'm not referring to Zero requiem but rather the fact that Lelouch prevented a second anime being wrapped up with a bleeding instrumentality project. That's enough brownie points to pardon a small scale genocide in my book...
It's funny how everyone always forgets about that, myself included.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cephei Mordred View Post
I just thought of something else.

What would have happened if, despite her best efforts, Sayoko was unable to get away and got captured by Anya during the school event, and forced to relinquish the hat to Milly?

Would she reveal herself, or would she tell Lelouch he had to take this upon himself, or is there a third option here?
It's Code Geass, there's always a third option so out there we mere mortals could never think of it.
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Old 2010-09-07, 03:00   Link #7699
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Originally Posted by Kittenlady View Post
Considering the situation? That's pretty much the same thing. And Lelouch is a lying liar who lies. Obviously, we don't know either way, but I think he knew he wouldn't be able to keep that promise.
Even he couldn't predict how things would turn out. It was only after he had given up all hope on life following Nunnally's apparent demise and the betrayal that he went ahead and told Rivalz that he wouldn't be around for the fireworks.

Again, it was following the betrayal that he had consigned himself to death. He wouldn't have went ahead and killed all of those people otherwise.

Besides, if he felt he didn't belong in the new world, why couldn't take others like Cornelia and Villetta with him?
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Old 2010-09-07, 04:43   Link #7700
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Say what? Light is an almost entirely self indulgent big baby.
Oh, I meant Light before he was possessed by the Death Note, or that period where his memory was wiped. He was a bad person otherwise, yeah, but blaming him for being under the Death Note's spell is like blaming everyone who does something reprehensible under Lelouch's Geass.
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