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Old 2010-09-07, 17:51   Link #381
Wiggy Fuzz
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Stark never came about as one who enjoyed fighting anyway. and shunsui's attack was pretty devastating - regular "slash you in half x9001".

Toshiro vs luppi was the classic case of "i was just studying you powuh, while pretending to be getting my arse beat. you k with dat?" - that trope has been done to death.

of course, now the captains are made to book kinda useless in front of Ichigo - help, even urahara showed them up.
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Old 2010-09-07, 18:10   Link #382
sayde
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Originally Posted by secretzfan View Post
Exactly that is why I use the fact that Ulquirra had a second release that he kept secret to tell that the rankings were inaccurate.
Here's the thing about Ulq's second release with regards to his ranking and this little debate--It really doesn't matter. He had Ichigo beaten with his first released form. So even if segunda etapa did somehow make him the true primera, it still wouldn't change the fact that an Espada like Halibel should've been stronger than Ulquiorra's 1st release (and therefore significantly stronger and faster than someone like Hitsugaya).

With all of this said, I'm reminded of something plausible I once heard on this board to introduce some level of logic back to these completely illogical turn of events.

Back in chapter 259, Chad stated that his hollow-based powers were reacting to Hueco Mundo -- and as a result, he was able to realize his full power. So perhaps just by being present in Hueco Mundo can make both hollows, Vizards, and anyone else with hollow-based power stronger. Of course, then you would have to assume that the gap between Espada's #4-1's strength and speed was relatively small. You'd then have to assume the power boost from being in Hueco Mundo is so great, that it allowed Ulquiorra to overshadow Espada's 3-1 the moment they left for the world of the living.

If it's true, it would definitely explain how Grimm and Ulquiorra managed to keep up and outspeed an opponent who should be faster than any of the captains (minus the old man maybe). It'd also help explain part of the reasons why Ichigo's hollow powers were able to get increasingly stronger throughout the arc.
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Old 2010-09-07, 18:15   Link #383
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Originally Posted by sayde View Post
Here's the thing about Ulq's second release with regards to his ranking and this little debate--It really doesn't matter. He had Ichigo beaten with his first released form. So even if segunda etapa did somehow make him the true primera, it still wouldn't change the fact that an Espada like Halibel should've been stronger than Ulquiorra's 1st release (and therefore significantly stronger and faster than someone like Hitsugaya).

With all of this said, I'm reminded of something plausible I once heard on this board to introduce some level of logic back to these completely illogical turn of events.

Back in chapter 259, Chad stated that his hollow-based powers were reacting to Hueco Mundo -- and as a result, he was able to realize his full power. So perhaps just by being present in Hueco Mundo can make both hollows, Vizards, and anyone else with hollow-based power stronger. Of course, then you would have to assume that the gap between Espada's #4-1's strength and speed was relatively small. You'd then have to assume the power boost from being in Hueco Mundo is so great, that it allowed Ulquiorra to overshadow Espada's 3-1 the moment they left for the world of the living.

If it's true, it would definitely explain how Grimm and Ulquiorra managed to keep up and outspeed an opponent who should be faster than any of the captains (minus the old man maybe).
That could explain why Starrk didn't seem that powerful. He didn't have the full power of Hueco Mundo to help him. I still believe however that Kyoraku could have beaten him any way kinda because just by saying black the hole could engulf him and any other hollow. I guess it is weird for Starrk because figuring out the color game is tough in the anime yet in the manga your explanation would be valid and could make sense out of the power levels in Bleach that I always found can be made sense
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Old 2010-09-07, 18:23   Link #384
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Any predictions for the next chpt ppl? (just to see how much kubo trolls)
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Old 2010-09-07, 18:29   Link #385
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None yet maybe tomorrow
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Old 2010-09-07, 18:33   Link #386
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I still believe however that Kyoraku could have beaten him any way kinda because just by saying black the hole could engulf him and any other hollow.
why do you keep saying this when i just got though explaining via PM that's NOT how Kyoraku's powers work... His powers do not engulf anyone, they just make it so this his attack has a lot of extra power to it if he hits the right spot (which if stark was as powerufl as he SHOULD have been would have been impossible to hit)
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Old 2010-09-07, 18:35   Link #387
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Originally Posted by Slayerx View Post
why do you keep saying this when i just got though explaining via PM that's NOT how Kyoraku's powers work... His powers do not engulf anyone, they just make it so this his attack has a lot of extra power to it if he hits the right spot (which if stark was as powerufl as he SHOULD have been would have been impossible to hit)
Oh hey yea I already knew that I am talking about that anime and that is still weird to me.
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Old 2010-09-07, 18:40   Link #388
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Originally Posted by secretzfan View Post
I still believe however that Kyoraku could have beaten him any way kinda because just by saying black the hole could engulf him and any other hollow. I guess it is weird for Starrk because figuring out the color game is tough in the anime yet in the manga your explanation would be valid and could make sense out of the power levels in Bleach that I always found can be made sense
My sentiments pretty much match up with Slayerx's comments. Even though saying a particular color has the potential to dish out great damage, there's still the fact that shunsui or stark must actually land a hit on the said color for the damage to be done. So despite how cheap everyone says Shunsui's shikai is, so long as that particular game doesn't restrict one's ability to simply move out of the way, I don't see why Stark couldn't avoid the attack (if he was as fast as he should've been). Shunsui's ability sounds terrific providing he has the speed and skills necessary to keep up with his opponent. And thanks to Kubo's writing, that's exactly what happened.
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Old 2010-09-07, 19:03   Link #389
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Originally Posted by sayde View Post
My sentiments pretty much match up with Slayerx's comments. Even though saying a particular color has the potential to dish out great damage, there's still the fact that shunsui or stark must actually land a hit on the said color for the damage to be done. So despite how cheap everyone says Shunsui's shikai is, so long as that particular game doesn't restrict one's ability to simply move out of the way, I don't see why Stark couldn't avoid the attack (if he was as fast as he would've been). Shunsui's ability sounds terrific providing he has the speed and skills necessary to keep up with his opponent. And thanks to Kubo's writing, that's exactly what happened.
I just found out about that, but what I don't get is the color game

What is the point of saying a color to slash someone's body and just make them feel like they have felt more damage than I really have. Really it doesn't make any sense. As for Starrk's speed to evade umm I don't get it at all because what if it was Yammy he dosn't move very afst either and he is 0 and he would lose to that ability. Then what you said about Hueco Mundo just might be a large factor too
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Old 2010-09-07, 19:45   Link #390
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What is the point of saying a color to slash someone's body and just make them feel like they have felt more damage than I really have. Really it doesn't make any sense.
Sure it does... both players are under the influence of the shikai and it's rules. If you don't allow you enemy to know the rules then you are untouchable, or if the enemy knows he might call out a color that has low effect... in turn if you make proper use of the game you can make your normal slash do a lot more damage... if you don't actually play with your enemies it could easily take an even fight and give you a surprise victory

ofcourse our complaint is manly that it should not have ever been an "even fight" to begin with, and that shunsui should have been hopelessly outclassed
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Old 2010-09-07, 19:50   Link #391
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Originally Posted by sayde View Post
I don't see why Stark couldn't avoid the attack (if he was as fast as he should've been). Shunsui's ability sounds terrific providing he has the speed and skills necessary to keep up with his opponent. And thanks to Kubo's writing, that's exactly what happened.
Shunsui stabbed Stark in the gut with kageoni sneak attack before he challenged him to irooni. Most of the Espada don't have regeneration so the injury would've slowed him down. Both were moving slower than before and focusing on attacking rather than dodging.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Slayerx
ofcourse our complaint is manly that it should not have ever been an "even fight" to begin with, and that shunsui should have been hopelessly outclassed
And most likely he would've been, if he hadn't played dead and waited for Stark to use his most dangerous attack on the vizards that is.
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Old 2010-09-07, 19:56   Link #392
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Originally Posted by Slayerx View Post
Sure it does... both players are under the influence of the shikai and it's rules. If you don't allow you enemy to know the rules then you are untouchable, or if the enemy knows he might call out a color that has low effect... in turn if you make proper use of the game you can make your normal slash do a lot more damage... if you don't actually play with your enemies it could easily take an even fight and give you a surprise victory

ofcourse our complaint is manly that it should not have ever been an "even fight" to begin with, and that shunsui should have been hopelessly outclassed
I don't know maybe he should have it could have just been Tite wanting to keep all the good guys alive after all he does that or it could be what the other guy said about the power of Hueceo Mundo
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Old 2010-09-07, 20:10   Link #393
MikeyGrey
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Originally Posted by sayde View Post
Back in chapter 259, Chad stated that his hollow-based powers were reacting to Hueco Mundo -- and as a result, he was able to realize his full power. So perhaps just by being present in Hueco Mundo can make both hollows, Vizards, and anyone else with hollow-based power stronger.
he said that "something is different about my power compared to real world" and afterwards he said that "from now on ill be able to fight at full strength". his strength wasnt boosted or anything; just temporary disruption from change of location. as proof, in the next chapter, he refers to his combat abilities as "his true power". and if the top 3 espadas suffered from "temporary disruption" throughout their fights then.... what use are they?

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Actually in the manga Tia broke herself out of the shards. She didn't need the help of WW. This proves Tia's power
nope thats incorrect. ww's scream shattered the ice. re-read ch-364 pg: 9-11
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Old 2010-09-07, 20:13   Link #394
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nope thats incorrect. ww's scream shattered the ice. re-read ch-364 pg: 9-11
WTF that can't be right I swear I saw Tia brkae on her own after a couple of chapters
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Old 2010-09-07, 20:16   Link #395
MikeyGrey
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WTF that can't be right I swear I saw Tia brkae on her own after a couple of chapters
ill put up the pics... gimme a sec
Spoiler for pic:

Spoiler for pic:

edit: comp crashed midway of 2nd pic crop (impeccable timing) so i just pasted the whole page
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Old 2010-09-07, 20:42   Link #396
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Originally Posted by Sabaku Kyu View Post
Shunsui stabbed Stark in the gut with kageoni sneak attack before he challenged him to irooni. Most of the Espada don't have regeneration so the injury would've slowed him down. Both were moving slower than before and focusing on attacking rather than dodging.
Ya, Barragan, can shrug off a nuke to the face but Stark can't handle a stab wound... not to mention how many (vizard enhanced) attacks it took for Grimjow to finally go down

Quote:
And most likely he would've been, if he hadn't played dead and waited for Stark to use his most dangerous attack on the vizards that is.
again, people seriously underestimate how powerful Stark should have been... Again recall ichigo's fights without his mask. Without his mask he was getting the ever loving crap beaten out of him by an unreleased Grimjow and unreleased Ulq... neither of them were even using any kind of special power or abilities. Their basic strength and speed had Ichigo hopeless outclassed and he was tossed around like a rag doll... Stark should have been even stronger than that. In his Released form he should have had such incredible basic strength and speed that Shunsui could not hope to keep up.

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I don't know maybe he should have it could have just been Tite wanting to keep all the good guys alive after all he does that
considering the condition of hiyori... no Shunsui winning the fight was not necessary for survival
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Old 2010-09-07, 20:49   Link #397
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ill put up the pics... gimme a sec
Spoiler for pic:

Spoiler for pic:

edit: comp crashed midway of 2nd pic crop (impeccable timing) so i just pasted the whole page
Okay that's it some one edited the manga chapters from One Manga later after I saw them obviously, because beyond WW yelling I am fore sure Tia came out dramatically making it look she broke out herself.

No mater Tia still pushed Toshiro too using those shards.

I had too think about it for a while and it make sense if were using the manga as a reference after all Starrk still beat Love and Rose it didn't matter if they couldn't use there mask because at a them they were both captains and Starrk easily disposed of them. Proving Starrk can beat a high level captain. Looking back at the Kyoraku fight it still sense to me. After all Starrk was at close range. Very close at that. Hmm what if he fought Ichigo a person who is only power. Who would win.

I also think the speed of Starrk could also be overestimated. I mean Starrk's realease was awesome and cool looking, but I think Starrk simply made the mistake of trying to Kyoraku's bankai out.

Edited: Tite Kubo simply wounded Hiyori very badly by cutting off her legs, but of course she still could have been healed. The fact is Tite wanted to rush the rest of the Espda because he didn't want to waste any time on them and instead of haxing the Espada he'd rather hax Aizen day and night
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Old 2010-09-07, 20:53   Link #398
MikeyGrey
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Again recall ichigo's fights without his mask.
try not to use ichigo as a reference; his abilities are way too unstable. even way back when yammy & ulqqoirra faced him first time, ichigo's raiatsu was high enough to take em both out & moments later low enough for him to get crushed
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Originally Posted by secretzfan View Post
beyond WW yelling I am fore sure Tia came out dramatically making it look she broke out herself.

No mater Tia still pushed Toshiro too using those shards.
the cracks on ice are working their way outside in. if it were her strength it would be other way around. not to mention hitsugaya held back his strongest attack till it was weak enough so that it doesnt hurt others around. had he unleashed it asap it is possible that even his scream would not have broken the ice (although i doubt that...ww's abilities are hard to judge)
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Old 2010-09-07, 21:04   Link #399
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Originally Posted by MikeyGrey View Post
try not to use ichigo as a reference; his abilities are way too unstable. even way back when yammy & ulqqoirra faced him first time, ichigo's raiatsu was high enough to take em both out & moments later low enough for him to get crushed

the cracks on ice are working their way outside in. if it were her strength it would be other way around. not to mention hitsugaya held back his strongest attack till it was weak enough so that it doesnt hurt others around. had he unleashed it asap it is possible that even his scream would not have broken the ice (although i doubt that...ww's abilities are hard to judge)
Tia is still debatable although I still think I either was reading jacked chapters of FKT ARC or at a time One Manga chapters were invalid.

Now what about Hueco Mundo there power could be turned around then.

Also guys remembering what Toshiro said about the VL I still think we might get more info on them because we never saw what 10 could do all we saw were three and all though it didn't seem like much it was a problem for Gotei.

Tite put them the fights toghter in order of behavior, but what if it was like this.

Kyoraku vs Barragan = Barrgan wins by aging Kyoraku's zanpaktou

Soi Fon vs Tia Tia loses to Soi fon's bankai

Toshiro vs Stark Starrk wins easily

Now if they fought in Hueco Mundo they all captains would be dead
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Old 2010-09-07, 21:30   Link #400
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He could have beat Ichigo with just his first release and as for his second one he murdered Ichigo then. The second realese is more powerful than the first I can tell because his second release speed increases and he become more flexible and the second was so much more cooler so Ulquirra could might just be the the number 1 Espada
Well obviously it is better, the question we can't answer is how much better? Kubo needs to be straight up with it.
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