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Old 2010-09-07, 21:36   Link #401
MikeyGrey
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Originally Posted by MikeyGrey View Post
Now if they fought in Hueco Mundo they all captains would be dead
and y would they be all dead? being in hm gives no apparent boost to either side. if ur still referring to chad being stronger i already disproved that earlier. i do agree that different match-ups would have different results but that holds true for both sides. either arrancars or captains could have an outright victory depending on the pairing.
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Old 2010-09-07, 21:41   Link #402
Wargumm1i
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Sado´s power up was never really power up, its more like because his powers were always in a different environment, that he never knew his powers were hollow related.

And when he was in HM he notes how his powers worked while fighting the other guy (forgot his name) and when he arrived at HM he was always trying to figure his powers out when he notes something, somewhere around the time when they arrived at HM he notes his powers were hollow related.
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Old 2010-09-07, 22:02   Link #403
secretzfan
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Originally Posted by Alchemist007 View Post
Well obviously it is better, the question we can't answer is how much better? Kubo needs to be straight up with it.
This is why I wanted something on the VL or Ulquirra
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Old 2010-09-07, 22:16   Link #404
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Originally Posted by MikeyGrey View Post
try not to use ichigo as a reference; his abilities are way too unstable. even way back when yammy & ulqqoirra faced him first time, ichigo's raiatsu was high enough to take em both out & moments later low enough for him to get crushed
Ichigo's powers were only unstable because he did not have control of his inner hollow... by his second fight with Grimjow that was no longer a problem. And what we saw in the second fight was that Grimjow was able to beat the crap out of Ichigo the moment the mask was gone (and Grim was missing an arm)... and this doesn't change how badly ulq beat him without the mask

if their was any meaning beyond that to ulq's words, he was likely feeling the power hidden deep within ichigo, the hollow form that tore Ulq to shreds... ofcourse this inner power was not a factor in any of his fights till ulq

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Well obviously it is better, the question we can't answer is how much better? Kubo needs to be straight up with it.
how so? Chad true powers awakened in HM but in no way shape or form has it EVER been indicated that hollows are stronger while they are in HM... frankly i would not be surprised if Chad can continue to use his powers when he returns to earth... HM just helped awaken his powers

not ot mention Yammy is still in HM and so far he's being beaten by a pair of captains who are just playing with him.
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Old 2010-09-07, 22:36   Link #405
sayde
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Originally Posted by MikeyGrey View Post
he said that "something is different about my power compared to real world" and afterwards he said that "from now on ill be able to fight at full strength". his strength wasnt boosted or anything; just temporary disruption from change of location. as proof, in the next chapter, he refers to his combat abilities as "his true power".
Yes, but here's the thing...being in Hueco Mundo literally made his power "feel" different than it did in the material world. In chapter 260 he goes onto to state that his power went through "a joyous unrest as if returning home". So my point here is that there's no denying the fact that chads powers were having a positive reaction to being in Hueco Mundo. Even though it's this very reaction which lead him to finally realize the truth behind his power, it doesn't completely negate the possibility of Chad being stronger than usual (due to the reaction his powers had by being in hollow-home territory).

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and if the top 3 espadas suffered from "temporary disruption" throughout their fights then.... what use are they?
If you put it that way, then the scenario I posted makes even more sense. Ironically, both fans and Aizen alike ended up feeling the exact same way about the Espada's --temporary disruption or not. In other words what use were they?
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Old 2010-09-07, 23:42   Link #406
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Originally Posted by Slayerx View Post
not ot mention Yammy is still in HM and so far he's being beaten by a pair of captains who are just playing with him.
Just to gauge Ichi's power level increase...through everything that's happened.
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Old 2010-09-08, 00:02   Link #407
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Originally Posted by sayde View Post
My sentiments pretty much match up with Slayerx's comments. Even though saying a particular color has the potential to dish out great damage, there's still the fact that shunsui or stark must actually land a hit on the said color for the damage to be done. So despite how cheap everyone says Shunsui's shikai is, so long as that particular game doesn't restrict one's ability to simply move out of the way, I don't see why Stark couldn't avoid the attack (if he was as fast as he should've been). Shunsui's ability sounds terrific providing he has the speed and skills necessary to keep up with his opponent. And thanks to Kubo's writing, that's exactly what happened.
Apparently Shunsui is naturally faster than Ichigo's vizardized bankai. That seems to be the only logical conclusion.
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Old 2010-09-08, 00:28   Link #408
sayde
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Originally Posted by astrallionheart View Post
Apparently Shunsui is naturally faster than Ichigo's vizardized bankai. That seems to be the only logical conclusion.
Except that this conclusion implies Stark to also be faster than Bankai+Vizard Ichigo. And if we're only assuming Stark is faster than Bankai+Vizard Ichigo because of his ranking (in relation to Ulq) we then have to assume Hallibel is also faster then Bankai+Vizard Ichigo--which means by default so is hitsugaya. And that's about where the logical conclusion falls apart. I wish it were that simple though.
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Old 2010-09-08, 00:32   Link #409
quigonkenny
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All this arguing is pretty pointless... Kubo has X person win when it suits the plot, and X person lose when it suits the plot, regardless of how powerful the opponent is. We usually don't notice this, because most the time it's explained away as Ichigo or his peers having to overcome some deficiency or properly control their powers (or show a burst of ingenuity, awaken a new power, etc.), which we expect in this genre of writing. It happens to all young shounen fighters as a fairly artificial plot device that we mostly ignore precisely because it happens so often. When it happens with characters who shouldn't have a fluctuating level of power, like the Vaizard, VL Espada, and captains (except for Shiro, and to some extent Kenpachi), it's really obvious how artificial it all is, because none of these characters are on "the hero's path" of failure and overcoming, which helps to suspend the readers' disbelief. They're already at their "destination", so to speak, and fairly unchanging.

Another prime example of this is Nel. She's the embodiment of a purely artificial method of the character's power being at the whim of plot. Ichico's getting his ass handed to him by Noitra, so she all of a sudden "wakes up" and proceeds to kick Noitra's ass all over HM, but as soon as Kubo needs to raise another character's stock (and advance the plot), he has her magically pop back to her weaker self (and completely out of the storyline) shortly before Kenpachi shows up to continue the tearing of Noitra's new hole.

This is somewhat excusable with Nel, as the plot has given her a reason for her powers to fluctuate. The characters at Fake K-Town have no such excuse, especially in comparison to the ones left in HM. Ichigo had to have his ass kicked in a variety of progressively more dramatic fashions, only to eventually overcome in an even more dramatic fashion. So everyone who wins has to do so in a stronger fashion than the last. In Fake K-Town, since none of those characters are "The Protagonist", it just boils down to the throwaway characters (the remaining Espada, and apparently Tousen) showing off their respective abilities against the characters that will still be alive at the end of this arc (because Kubo doesn't kill good guys), with little question as to who will be left standing for Aizen ex Machina to (temporarily) defeat on his way to advancing Ichigo.

And plus Kubo totally shot himself in the foot with the whole Vasto Lorde thing. If you want to artificially create suspense, say that their powers are unknown, not x times more than a captain's, especially when it's pretty obvious they never had a chance in the first place. Anything short of immediately taking out a bevy of captains (like Aizen did) was going to signify that they were overrated. And that was never going to happen.
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Old 2010-09-08, 00:37   Link #410
Sabaku Kyu
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Originally Posted by secretzfan View Post

I also think the speed of Starrk could also be overestimated. I mean Starrk's realease was awesome and cool looking, but I think Starrk simply made the mistake of trying to Kyoraku's bankai out.
Stark made the same mistake Luppi all villains do...assuming one attack finished off his enemy.

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Ya, Barragan, can shrug off a nuke to the face but Stark can't handle a stab wound... not to mention how many (vizard enhanced) attacks it took for Grimjow to finally go down
Barragan took major damage from Soi Fon's nuke. He even mentions that, but he's a skeleton with no vital organs and his method of fighting doesn't depend on speed or strength. GJ never was ran through like Stark and still basically went down in two hits, both while Ichigo's mask nearly completely crumbled. After Ichigo got "serious" the first hit cause GJ to resort to his ultimate attack which Ichigo tore through like butter. The cut after that caused him to drop. It wasn't flurry of vizard attacks that killed him.

These aren't video game boss that fight at full force until their health meter reach zero then suddenly they're dead x_x. Depending on the extent of the damage, they'll be affected unless they have regenerative ability.

By the time Shunsui used iro oni, neither Stark or Shunsui fighting at the same speed they have at full strength. It was basically an exchange of blows to see who would go down first.

Quote:
again, people seriously underestimate how powerful Stark should have been... Again recall ichigo's fights without his mask. Without his mask he was getting the ever loving crap beaten out of him by an unreleased Grimjow and unreleased Ulq... neither of them were even using any kind of special power or abilities.
I agree it would've been ridiculous if Shunsui had beat Stark in straight 1-on-1 duel but that's not what happened. Shunsui sucker-punched and weakened a distracted Stark facing two vizard captains, lacking his long-range attacks with absolutely broken ability. Add to that the fact Stark sandbags horribly most of the fight.

But that's just the power level game in Bleach. I expected more from the Espada. No doubt they were really ineffective even though their strength was displayed pretty well overall.
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Old 2010-09-08, 00:41   Link #411
sayde
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I'd absolutely love to +rep you for that post. But I can't. Sorry quigonkenny. I suppose you'll have to settle for me stating "I agree".
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Old 2010-09-08, 03:39   Link #412
kiak666
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Looks like spoiler for the next chapter is out:

Spoiler for Chapter 419:

Last edited by kiak666; 2010-09-08 at 03:51.
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Old 2010-09-08, 03:54   Link #413
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When will the transformations stop?! D:
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Old 2010-09-08, 04:06   Link #414
Haak
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Originally Posted by Sabaku Kyu View Post
Using "only" shikai to defeat an opponent isn't any kind of concrete indicator of the enemy's strength. Ichigo used just his shikai to defeat unrestrained Kenpachi but had to use bankai to defeat Byakuya. Does that mean Ken is just that much weaker Bya? Shikai can be ridiculously powerful. Aizen and Yamamoto are proof of that.
True, but that doesn't disprove the fact that defeating someone using shikai still means you're stronger than them, so long as there weren't any signifcant external factors affecting the fight. Even if Shunsui's shikai is odd compared to his bankai, like Ichigo, the fact remains that he still won. The fact remains that a Vasto Lorde got beaten by a captain even though we've been lead to believe they're stronger.

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Originally Posted by secretzfan View Post
It is the color game that beat Starrk don't forget a shikai can be overpowered too. Just like Aizen and Kira. Shunsui zanpaktou engulfed him in the anime when he said black of course though in the manga it may have been a bit diffrent but the color game was what beat Satrrk, but if he fought a battle gainst strengh alone Starrk would win greatly.
And your point is? The color game is Shunsui's own power and he used it to defeat Stark.

Shunsui > Stark

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Actually in the manga Tia broke herself out of the shards. She didn't need the help of WW. This proves Tia's power
Check it again. It's Chapter 364. Look at the bottom left panel in the double page when Wonderweiss screams. The scream reaches the iceberg.
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Old 2010-09-08, 04:10   Link #415
Wiggy Fuzz
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When will the transformations stop?! D:
... mommy... i'm scared...
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Old 2010-09-08, 04:42   Link #416
Calca
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Originally Posted by kiak666 View Post
Looks like spoiler for the next chapter is out:

Spoiler for Chapter 419:
I think I saw an episode of "Mighty Max" where they defeated an antagonist by forcing him to infinitely evolve.

So now he's borrowing from American cartoons.
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Old 2010-09-08, 05:22   Link #417
Haak
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No he's just copying Frieza. Or maybe it's revenge against Nick Simmons.
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Old 2010-09-08, 06:48   Link #418
Frenchie
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Annnnd it's confirmed. I held on to the hope it was a troll, but Kubo is so good at it that I should've known.
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Old 2010-09-08, 08:25   Link #419
Slayerx
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Originally Posted by Sabaku Kyu View Post
Ichigo used just his shikai to defeat unrestrained Kenpachi but had to use bankai to defeat Byakuya. Does that mean Ken is just that much weaker Bya?
God knows i've bitched about it in the past as to why power levels are screwed up...
the only half-way decent explaination for Ichigo's victory has been that he was actually tapping into his hollow powers or something and thus got a huge boost in power that put him on the level of a captain using bankai... other than that, it's a whole lot of bull
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Old 2010-09-08, 08:34   Link #420
Wiggy Fuzz
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i don't take anything kenpachi does seriously anyway. as much as kenny claims to say, though, i think he's gotten at least a little progress with his zanpakuto. he didn't use kendo against ichigo...
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