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Old 2010-09-11, 06:16   Link #17581
cmos
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Originally Posted by erneiz_hyde View Post
In Lion's world, the epitaph doen't exist in the first place.
The chapel was constructed along with the mansion, when Kinzo bought the island. The epitaph device is inbuilt in it, therefore Kinzo must have thought about some riddle at that time already. It would be hard to modify it afterwards with his children living on the island. So it's perfectly possible that the relatives would kill each other for the gold and headship in Lion's world too.
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Old 2010-09-11, 07:02   Link #17582
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The explosion only needs to kill the people near it that way. And if the victims are localized to the primary blast area (wherever that is), it's possible that they were blown up while the external radius just collapsed.

It's not clear how many victims there were, and there was only one identification of any kind made. This opens up a few prospects:
  • Only a few people exploded; the rest died in the collapse and were buried.
  • Some people were already underground for whatever reason, so their bodies would never be located after a collapse.
  • The explosives were distributed in such a fashion that likely refuge sites would have been fatal.
  • Certain individuals survived the explosion(s) and collapse, but avoided or escaped notice of the searchers (due to being trapped, unconscious, conscious desire to not be found, etc.).
Also, let's not forget that we're having it alleged that Kinzo was a construction engineer with the backing of the IJN and later, the Americans. I believe it is entirely plausible such a person would have the knowledge (and possibly the resources) to engineer a controlled demolition, which would leave Kuwadorian intact short of a lot of dust. This is, of course, dependent on the existence of underground tunnels, but if we're willing to believe the rest of this I don't see why we'd consider those unconfirmed at this point.

To a create a crater 1km wide from a ground collapse you need a whole geofront under Rokkenjima. I know we do have EVA ANGE LION but....
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Old 2010-09-11, 12:36   Link #17583
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Well, we really don't know. But a series of specifically placed explosives in the caverns, assuming they're as extensive as we're being led to believe, is certainly an easier way to create a 1km crater with less explosives and less ejection of debris. It would also appear to the outside observer to more readily be ruled an accident. I'm sure the more experienced investigators wouldn't think so, but if there were a coverup, it'd be easy to say something like "unknown disturbance caused caverns to collapse" or something and write that off as an accident. Blame it on an earthquake, or gas, or volcanic activity, make up whatever story you like and declare the island off-limits due to "seismic instability."
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Old 2010-09-11, 13:27   Link #17584
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Or they actually just said that the old self-destruction device and ammunition storage detonated by an unfortunate accident and the island is off-limits due to various spread out unexploded shells or something. They can't prosecute Eva without any evidence, can they?
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Old 2010-09-11, 18:14   Link #17585
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Originally Posted by cmos View Post
The chapel was constructed along with the mansion, when Kinzo bought the island. The epitaph device is inbuilt in it, therefore Kinzo must have thought about some riddle at that time already. It would be hard to modify it afterwards with his children living on the island. So it's perfectly possible that the relatives would kill each other for the gold and headship in Lion's world too.
Yes, but that's beside my point. What I meant was that the painting which the epitaph was displayed on was never there in the first place in Lion's world.

But if you think about it, Lion's world is full of non-sense. Why display a freaking book while Kinzo is supposed to have Beatrice's body and why hold a funeral THEN when Lion's already a freaking adult? Why hold any funeral at all? Why the 19 years delay to hold a funeral? And how come Rosa never get any punishment beside her self-imposed guilt (perhaps because she never said anything about the incident, and everyone else just thinks Beatrice met her demise truly by accident herself)?
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Old 2010-09-11, 18:27   Link #17586
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Originally Posted by erneiz_hyde View Post
And how come Rosa never get any punishment beside her self-imposed guilt (perhaps because she never said anything about the incident, and everyone else just thinks Beatrice met her demise truly by accident herself)?
About that-

I think that Beato-2 and Kinzo's wife died around the same time. It would explain that whole 'We haven't seen Kinzo cry this hard since Mom died' statement that's been irking me to no end. If you felt no love for another person and just... went with the flow, there would no reason to cry so much (unless you had guilt). But to cry just as much for a person you really did love (well, obsess over)...it's kinda...odd.
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Old 2010-09-12, 00:57   Link #17587
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Originally Posted by erneiz_hyde View Post
Yes, but that's beside my point. What I meant was that the painting which the epitaph was displayed on was never there in the first place in Lion's world.
Indeed it wasn't, but that doesn't mean it didn't exist. In EP7's Tea Party, Kinzo gave it to the siblings when the fuss over the headship succession started. Of course, if you believe the Tea Party on its entirety was falsity, then you can say nothing happened. But at this point it's hard to tell whether it was a complete lie or not. Personally, I think it wasn't a complete lie.

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But if you think about it, Lion's world is full of non-sense.
I think that's the point of it. It is a special kakera in which Yasu/Beatrice didn't have to go through the things (s)he did, and can be happy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by erneiz_hyde View Post
Why display a freaking book while Kinzo is supposed to have Beatrice's body and why hold a funeral THEN when Lion's already a freaking adult? Why hold any funeral at all? Why the 19 years delay to hold a funeral? And how come Rosa never get any punishment beside her self-imposed guilt (perhaps because she never said anything about the incident, and everyone else just thinks Beatrice met her demise truly by accident herself)?
As for the book, I'm not sure, but it can be related to the initial scene with Battler, Virgilia and what looked like Beatrice's funeral. As for why the delay in Beatrice's funeral in Lion's world. Well, if I come up with a quick idea, then... Lion is nearing his/her 20s, at which point Kinzo is planning on giving him/her the family headship. This being a special event, Kinzo decided to make a funeral to Beatrice - possibly for both of them (i.e. Castiglioni and his daughter). Probably, none of them had a proper burial ceremony, and Kinzo decided to hold this event in their memory.
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Old 2010-09-12, 03:12   Link #17588
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Originally Posted by erneiz_hyde View Post
But if you think about it, Lion's world is full of non-sense. Why display a freaking book while Kinzo is supposed to have Beatrice's body and why hold a funeral THEN when Lion's already a freaking adult? Why hold any funeral at all? Why the 19 years delay to hold a funeral?
That's because the chapel in which Will's investigation takes place, strictly speaking, wasn't a Lion's world. It's a fusion, superposition of two worlds: Lion's and Beatrice's. It's a special world set up by Bern. You know, with all these time barriers, golden roses, characters from both worlds, etc. Pieces act accordingly to GM's orders. That's why they don't question this funeral of our Beatrice, with a book as the corpse. The question Bern proposes to Will is who killed this Beatrice, not the one, Rosa saw.
In the real Lion's world (well, as much as Lion's world could be real at all) these fantasy events probably don't exist at all.
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Old 2010-09-12, 03:51   Link #17589
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Originally Posted by Helmet-kun View Post
About that-

I think that Beato-2 and Kinzo's wife died around the same time. It would explain that whole 'We haven't seen Kinzo cry this hard since Mom died' statement that's been irking me to no end. If you felt no love for another person and just... went with the flow, there would no reason to cry so much (unless you had guilt). But to cry just as much for a person you really did love (well, obsess over)...it's kinda...odd.
That's interesting. When did Kinzo's wife die again? If she died at around the same time at Beato-2's death, then Yasu's fall would be around the same time as well. Wow, three women deaths for Kinzo. No wonder he went insane.
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Old 2010-09-12, 07:53   Link #17590
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I don't think she died in 1967. I thought about that before and realized that logically it shouldn't be possible.

We know that Rosa told everyone that she ran away from her house because she had a quarrel with her mother and she told them that it was about 20 years before.

So 20 years before, Kinzo's wife was still alive, else everyone would decidedly think that Rosa is telling a lie.
Then if Rosa's story is true, Kinzo's wife was alive in 1967 when Beatrice2 died.

Now the point here is that Rosa isn't sure about the exact year, but if that was the very same year her mother died, do you think she wouldn't remember? It's unthinkable.
You would definitely remember the year your own mother died, and Rosa should remember it happened a little after she experienced a very traumatic event.

The other siblings also should have mentioned something like "so it was around the time mother died".
Logically that's what I would expect... but this is a story where people forget that Ange exists so who knows...

There is also Natsuhi's story about the baby. She explained how Krauss and Rosa weren't around... but she didn't say anything about her mother in law.


"My husband had been on a business trip. Rosa-san, who had still lived on the island at the time, had been traveling with her friends.
......Father and I were the only ones on Rokkenjima!"


Yes this is a story were people forget about the existence of their closed relative.
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Old 2010-09-12, 12:04   Link #17591
Helmet-kun
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
Logically that's what I would expect... but this is a story where people forget that Ange exists so who knows...
Y'know, Ange could have never existed until the games began in EP2.

Quote:
There is also Natsuhi's story about the baby. She explained how Krauss and Rosa weren't around... but she didn't say anything about her mother in law.
It's about a one year gap, isn't it? So, around that time, their mother had to have died -or- one of their stories is placed on the wrong year or something. Most likely Rosa's, but...
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Old 2010-09-12, 12:43   Link #17592
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Originally Posted by Helmet-kun View Post
Y'know, Ange could have never existed until the games began in EP2.
She was also mentioned in Episode 1 briefly near the beginning.
Quote:
It's about a one year gap, isn't it? So, around that time, their mother had to have died -or- one of their stories is placed on the wrong year or something. Most likely Rosa's, but...
Rosa's given year is by far the most suspicious, simply because it doesn't add up with the rest of the timeline.
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Old 2010-09-12, 22:45   Link #17593
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It's very weird that we have no idea when Kinzo's wife died. It might help at least reconcile a few issues, but if what Rosa said is accurate, her mother's been dead no earlier than after her alleged incident in 1967ish and Natsuhi either forgot (or Ryukishi did) that Kinzo's wife was on the island thereafter, she wasn't on the island but Natsuhi forgot to say why, or she was already dead at that point.

I'm not at all sure what that means. Does it fix the date of Kinzo's wife's death to that time? What does that mean? Did ryukishi just forget, like he did on occasion with Ange?
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Old 2010-09-12, 22:52   Link #17594
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Well he hasn't even given us the courtesy of knowing Grandma's name yet.

I wonder if Kinzo's wife might have been one of the grandparents they say died while Battler was away. I think it might make some sense for Rudolf to beg Battler to come back with the pretext of going to grandma's funeral as an Ushiromiya.
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Old 2010-09-13, 00:11   Link #17595
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Thinking about themes...

I had a theory that each episode of the first four arcs is meant to represent the thematic elements advanced initially: Fantasy, Mystery, Anti-Fantasy, and Anti-Mystery. For example, with the first epsiodes we'd have:

EP1 - Mystery: Whodunnit? No explicit supernatural elements.

EP2 - Fantasy: A magical witch appears! Everything is the result of magic! Surrender to the witch!

EP3 - Anti-Fantasy: Supernatural elements are explicitly and aggressively denied. Events deemed suspect are declared to have never happened at all. We will finger a culprit in the end because we must to deny what we see.

EP4 - Anti-Mystery: We have no information to go on. The crime is unsolvable without information from an external source.

So I don't think that's too implausible. And I've noticed thematic parallels in each episode to the corresponding one in the main arcs, so while they're not "answer arcs," I do think they're meant to show us something.

Only recently did I think about "chiru" -> "breakdown." There are too many cracks in Chiru's facade for it all to be accidental and I've thought of too many things that just "don't click" in each episode for me to accept that they aren't somehow flawed. However... what if those flaws are intentional? Chiru arcs are a literal thematic "breakdown" where the themes are taken to their extreme?

EP5 - Mystery Breakdown: A super detective solves the crime with every trick in the book. A culprit is fingered and forced to the point of confession... but everything was wrong and she's not confessing to the right thing.

EP6 - Fantasy Breakdown: Fantasy to its logical extreme produces contradictory puzzles. Too much fantasy done wrong and things stop making even fantasy-sense.

EP7 - Anti-Fantasy Breakdown: Go to any lengths to make all the facts fit an answer which denies fantastic elements by explaining everything, even if you aren't sure it actually fits. Gloss, throw in a freakin' submarine and an alternate timeline, do whatever it takes.

EP8 - Anti-Mystery Breakdown: What is the ultimate scenario in which incomplete information exists...?

Note that these thematic problems are not their opposites - the breakdown of Mystery is not Anti-Mystery and the breakdown of Fantasy is not Anti-Fantasy. I'm not sure what else there is to that, though... and ep8 can always prove me wrong.
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Old 2010-09-13, 00:32   Link #17596
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EP8 - Anti-Mystery Breakdown: What is the ultimate scenario in which incomplete information exists...?.
Incomplete information scenario = unsolvable mystery

The ultimate scenario can either be:

A. The mystery is actually an illusion which hides the answer.
B. The mystery is full of facts, but they are all misleading, making them factual errors.
C. Some other thing that slipped my mind.

Meaning:

Evasion of the Red Truth, In which Beato never died, which is why she can't be revived.

Screwing with the Detective, in which Will must prove Lion is somehow not an illusion, and is seeking and gathering info that's hard to find because the memories of Lion are already fading away.

Screwing with the Detective 2, in which Piece-Battler is confirmed to be the detective and faces...Himself... and Will.

Repeated Episode 1 with Will and more changes. Meaning no meta-world or anything.

Repeated Episode 1 with No Will, meta-world, etc.

There are a lot of scenarios that exist, but to say which one's the ultimate...? Kind of hard.
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Old 2010-09-13, 00:37   Link #17597
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Well, Renall, I hadn't read much on your theory before. I do remember thinking something similar about there being similarities in the core arcs to the question arcs and that they could be representing them in a round about way. I hadn't thought deep enough for it to be thematic like that though. I think that anti mystery could work with episode 8 too to explain some of the more unorthodox mystery elements of the story, and hey we might actually get the "later queen theory" mentioned in game if that's true.

All I can say is that if that's what Ryukishi has been planning all along I think it's really clever.
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Old 2010-09-13, 06:09   Link #17598
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There is something strange with EP4...
Shannontrice is confirmed even by the phone call
Spoiler for EP4 pic:

With the common interpretation of Shannontrice, this is refering to the <See you again> of 6 years ago.
So...this Beatrice would be Shannon...but...the problem is later.
Spoiler for EP4 pic:

You can tell that Suit!Beato = Shannon Personality and Meta!Beato is the Beatrice personnality...but then...there is the You are not Ushiromiya Asumu's son. scene. There is something...strange ? For now, it goes like this :
Quote:
Beatrice wanted to get rid of Battler. However, she could not tell is red that he is not Asumu's son because Shannon/she had no clue of that. She asked Battler to repeat it. Battler succed, and she tries to find a way that would denies that Battler is Asumu's son, and she finds it.
...However...this is pure...luck !
...and this doesn't make sense, because Ange tried to stop her saying "I know what you're to, stop" or something like that.
So I think it's safe that it was not luck.

Now...According to the information in EP1 only, the only one who knows that Battler is not Asumu's son is Rudolf. Therefore, with the Sh(k)annontrice theory, Rudolf must have told Shannon that Battler is not Asumu's son.
But...just tell me if there is a clue of Rudolf telling a servant that...

But ho god the Asumu!Beatrice theory is so wierd...Shannon makes more sense but how would she know that ?

Last edited by DgBarca; 2010-09-13 at 06:48.
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Old 2010-09-13, 14:33   Link #17599
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
EP8 - Anti-Mystery Breakdown: What is the ultimate scenario in which incomplete information exists...?

Note that these thematic problems are not their opposites - the breakdown of Mystery is not Anti-Mystery and the breakdown of Fantasy is not Anti-Fantasy. I'm not sure what else there is to that, though... and ep8 can always prove me wrong.
That was a pretty interesting line of thought. And anti-mystery breakdown... maybe this really means that umineko will be revealed to be not a mystery novel.


@DgBarca
Maybe on Rokkenjima Prime the story of Battler's birth was revealed.
Or maybe Shannon being obsessed about Battler, made some research...
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Old 2010-09-13, 14:40   Link #17600
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That was a pretty interesting line of thought. And anti-mystery breakdown... maybe this really means that umineko will be revealed to be not a mystery novel.
Oliver had a thought of these things as a trinity of sorts.

Mystery, Anti-Mystery, and Breakdown Mystery, or something to that effect.

With mystery, you're concerned with using information available to solve a crime. With anti-mystery, you're positing that a crime exists, but not enough information exists to solve it.

So what is the logical breakdown there? No information? Irrelevant information? A true but incomplete eyewitness account (Oliver suggested this prospect, and it would fit with Ryukishi's "1+1" solution concept)? Not enough information even to know whether a crime happened at all? The revelation that there is no answer?

I have no idea, but I'm confident in saying that ep8 will draw on thematic and character elements from ep4 (so we might expect to see more Ange, more Battler, and perhaps more Rosa and Maria), and yet at the same time play itself up to the extreme variant of ep4. Since ep4 itself ended with a baffled Battler unable to make sense of what happened, it's tough to imagine ending on an even more clueless note... but we'll have to see how he twists it around. Certainly, few people would argue ep6 and ep7 are all that similar to ep2 and ep3, but thematically they certainly are.
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I submit that a murder was committed in 1996.
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