AnimeSuki Forums

Register Forum Rules FAQ Members List Social Groups Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   AnimeSuki Forum > Anime Discussion > Older Series > Nanoha

Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 2010-09-09, 13:23   Link #1001
itanshi1
Writer, Jester, MtG nerd
 
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Nanoha Used Car Dealership. RERISE!
Send a message via AIM to itanshi1 Send a message via MSN to itanshi1
They were not talking about a specific tank, but tanks in a general sense, were they not?
__________________
For those that belittle their favorite characters, complain about pairings, complain about oversexed images. Stop, thank you.

Fear Anxiety Doubt is but a fad. The life of a fad depends entirely on the willingness to support it. Difficulty is a choice. Determination is a path. Your next great idea after your destination is the true goal.
itanshi1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-09-09, 13:41   Link #1002
Kaijo
Banned
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Somewhere over the rainbow, in a house dropped on an ugly, old woman.
Send a message via AIM to Kaijo Send a message via MSN to Kaijo
Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
What's so hard to understand that a HEAT round, which has a different mode of destruction, can destroy targets that a HE round cannot. Some targets are better engaged with HE (like soft, fleshy humans/mages and weak Kampfwagens) and others with HEAT (like better defended targets).
Yeah, on one hand we have an HE round that can take out a tank. And on the other we have an HEAT that can take out a tank. Wow, big difference there. ;p

Quote:
As for the HE round, the very fact that a small caliber HE round can do the job says much about the tank, because while a HE round has a larger blast radius and thus may be loosely be called "more destructive", its omnidirectionality limits intensity and the nature of its blast makes it weak against hard targets. Not that the weakness of the tank does anything to save a mage's reputation, because a mage apparently won't have survived that round.
Of course! It's so obvious now that the mariage was referring to a paper mache tank! Your insights are brilliant, because obviously any hardened, armored, mobile object must certainly be using paper mache for protection. Thus, we have an HE round that can take out a tank, but not a cyborg!

Hmm, of course, we're left with the problem that a normal unshielded human would be able to survive against such an attack, too, since it take destroy paper. Darn it....

Quote:
Besides, I don't think my answer is necessarily more complicated. I've decided on a layered scheme. The BJ with individual variation is basically useless (kinetically) so it can be blamed for all the weak spots. Active defenses with individual variation are more useful. It is not only very simple, but it layered structure allows its to capably cover all the situations w/o further discomfort PLUS it allows the maximum possible adherence to scientific principles.
Good thing we're dealing with science and not magic, then! Oh wait....

Quote:
Your answer is to say that the the AB/BJ is integral. Now that you have already concluded it can guard against most mass-based weapons, an explanation has to be come up with for each time it does not, even when it actually is contradictory to the information available.
Of which there is exactly two. A scientist must ask themselves: "Is there anything unique or different about these two cases, considering mages have come away unharmed from every other kinetic impact?"

The answer is yes. Anyone who tries to claim otherwise, is being disingenuous.

Quote:
That's not called one explanation that covers both, because then you have the very obvious question for WHY the AB/BJ was weakened, and you had to use two explanations, which would have been disadvantageous, but not an instant killer if not for the fact that one of them doesn't even fit the facts as given (so technically, your "one explanation" leaves 1 unexplained), and neither considered the problem of magnitude. IN short, your theory didn't even make the starter's gate, let alone to Occam's Razor.
Just a word of advice. You really don't want to invoke a rule that is already working against you; if anything, you should be trying to argue why it's not applicable. Occam's Razor is already working against your 1001 explanations, since 1 explanation is simpler than 1001. But hey, if you want to invoke it, then I have no argument. It just means all your arguments go out the window. =)

Quote:
Except they move at reasonably normal speeds in their lives. Next.
Do they? They do seem slower at a lot of other things, come to think of it. Such as thinking slowly about things. I mean, I've seen some thoughts take up several seconds, in and out of combat. I should know, because I've timed it! They seem to run slower, and everyone goes slow enough to allow people to speak things during combat. I mean, it's so convenient for people to have their enemies moving slow enough that they can chant out a spell, or yell something, and NOT fly away quickly enough to get out of range.

Or maybe everyone is just nice and kind and patient to their opponents? Hmmm....

Oh, stupid me, I totally forgot that one of your many explanations is that everyone is an idiot, deliberately using slow attacks (magic AND mass-based!) all the time! That's our lovable resident genius here ark, here. Naturally, since you're pretty smart, if you were in the series then you wouldn't give people a chance to speak because they'd all be moving like molasses compared to you, ya?

Ah, it's so much fun coming up with baseless theories! I'm really starting to love your modus operandi! You're right; one unified theory is no fun at all. It's much better to come up with 1001 of them!

Quote:
Originally Posted by itanshi1 View Post
They were not talking about a specific tank, but tanks in a general sense, were they not?
Yep. No specific tank is mentioned. That's part of ark's problem, because he wants to put words in the mariage's mouth that she was referring to a paper mache tank, when nothing of the sort was said. That's the big problem he's having a real hard time explaining away. His theory depends on the fact that a highly advanced killing machine using weaponry that can't defeat Earth's primitive ground units. His theory really falls apart even if we assume the mariage was referring the lightest armed tank in existence. A highly explosive round that could take out the lightest tank, will still fuck up a cyborg. Why? Because scientifically speaking, the cyborg has less much less mass. There is considerably more physical material in a tank, and thus the explosion is spread over more material. Each part takes less damage.

It's the difference in taking out 6-12 tons of material, vs. several hundred pounds. Anything that can take out 4 tons of material, is going to simply vaporize the smaller, less-dense object. Simple math.

Last edited by Kaijo; 2010-09-09 at 14:02.
Kaijo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-09-09, 13:54   Link #1003
itanshi1
Writer, Jester, MtG nerd
 
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Nanoha Used Car Dealership. RERISE!
Send a message via AIM to itanshi1 Send a message via MSN to itanshi1
I hate the tank strength argument. It's strictly disingenuous.

I mean, you;d been making these devil advocate arguments, although interesting, they are more theory than anything. I break a wall with my fist, was the fist strong or the wall weak? Structural damage does not occur in battles because the walls were weak. The walls are strong and their breaking is supposed to show how hard they are being hit. Likewise when they say an HE round can bust a tank it is for an effect that is supposed to say 'this is a damn good weapon ( that didn't work)' otherwise they would not even had said anything! it'd be anticlimatic and meaningless. Speaking of, is there any evidence that the marriages have a sense of humor?

Alright, *i hit you with a spit ball. You block it with another paper* i then say 'That spit ball was strong enough to take out a tank' For what reason does my saying this make my attack sound powerful? Its unrealistic. Try to understand motivation of the speaker's language instead of undermining it into insensibility.
__________________
For those that belittle their favorite characters, complain about pairings, complain about oversexed images. Stop, thank you.

Fear Anxiety Doubt is but a fad. The life of a fad depends entirely on the willingness to support it. Difficulty is a choice. Determination is a path. Your next great idea after your destination is the true goal.
itanshi1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-09-10, 00:29   Link #1004
arkhangelsk
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaijo View Post
Yeah, on one hand we have an HE round that can take out a tank. And on the other we have an HEAT that can take out a tank. Wow, big difference there. ;p
Huge difference. Let's try formula. Assume the Resistance of a Tank is 1, and it can be destroyed with a HEAT round with a Power of 1 and Penetration efficiency vs armor of 1 (so 1x1). A HE round is less efficient, so say an efficiency of 0.1. So, if it has to destroy the same tank, it'll need a Power of 10 (10x0.1=1).

If we assume the Power of HEAT and HE round is both 1, then the HEAT round with an efficiency of 1 can defeat a tank with a resistance of 1x1=1. A HE round can only defeat a tank with a resistance of 1x0.1 = 0.1.

Quote:
Hmm, of course, we're left with the problem that a normal unshielded human would be able to survive against such an attack, too, since it take destroy paper. Darn it....
Thus, we may safely say the tank involved was made of something somewhat tougher than paper-mache.

Quote:
Good thing we're dealing with science and not magic, then! Oh wait....
Since we are dealing with magic's effects on our physical world, YES.

Quote:
Of which there is exactly two. A scientist must ask themselves: "Is there anything unique or different about these two cases, considering mages have come away unharmed from every other kinetic impact?"
Actually, there are 5. You waved 2 more away under the broad, unspecific, unfalsifiable banner of invisible magic, and the last you again tried to rewrite the scenario given. Remember?

But 2 or 5, you did manage to get one correct answer: that we should find a pattern. And the simplest pattern is: The BJ simply isn't as good as some think it is. This leaves the problem of what to do with the better instances, and a dual layer system using already established components handles that.

Quote:
Just a word of advice. You really don't want to invoke a rule that is already working against you; if anything, you should be trying to argue why it's not applicable. Occam's Razor is already working against your 1001 explanations, since 1 explanation is simpler than 1001. But hey, if you want to invoke it, then I have no argument. It just means all your arguments go out the window. =)
If you don't see how 4 explanations for 5 scenarios, even leaving out the part that they are unproven, un-necessary or even contradictory to the scenarios given are more complicated than a simple 2-layer theory, one can hardly help you.

Quote:
Yep. No specific tank is mentioned. That's part of ark's problem, because he wants to put words in the mariage's mouth that she was referring to a paper mache tank, when nothing of the sort was said.
Kaijo's problem is that he wants to assume the Miriage was at least talking about a medium tank, even when the observations don't pan out.

Quote:
That's the big problem he's having a real hard time explaining away. His theory depends on the fact that a highly advanced killing machine using weaponry that can't defeat Earth's primitive ground units.
Your theory is based on allowing your fantasies to override the actual results.

Quote:
His theory really falls apart even if we assume the mariage was referring the lightest armed tank in existence. A highly explosive round that could take out the lightest tank, will still fuck up a cyborg. Why? Because scientifically speaking, the cyborg has less much less mass. There is considerably more physical material in a tank, and thus the explosion is spread over more material. Each part takes less damage.
The ability to destroy an object in real life is not determined solely by the ratio of its mass vs the projectile. It includes the toughness of the target (including resistance to stress and heat), the amount of explosion actually absorbed ... etc. In fact, a lighter target may have the advantage in survivability because it is easier to blow away, thus dispersing the force of the blast than something that can't move.

Quote:
Originally Posted by itanshi1 View Post
Try to understand motivation of the speaker's language instead of undermining it into insensibility.
You can write the author, telling him that when he next writes about rounds that can take out tanks, he should use the correct type of ammunition, and he should make reality fit his boast. Otherwise, it'll be his boast that adapts to maintain canonicity. Don't write letters to the messenger.

BTW, real disingenuity is to continue to allow your GUESSES about what the Miriage is saying to override the reality fed into your face.
arkhangelsk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-09-10, 00:32   Link #1005
itanshi1
Writer, Jester, MtG nerd
 
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Nanoha Used Car Dealership. RERISE!
Send a message via AIM to itanshi1 Send a message via MSN to itanshi1
As if I never claimed the author doesn't know what he's doing. I stopped posting here because people hated me for pointing that fact out.

How about the HE rounds in Nanohaverse being capable of destroying a tank unlike our own, eh? Your logic.
__________________
For those that belittle their favorite characters, complain about pairings, complain about oversexed images. Stop, thank you.

Fear Anxiety Doubt is but a fad. The life of a fad depends entirely on the willingness to support it. Difficulty is a choice. Determination is a path. Your next great idea after your destination is the true goal.
itanshi1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-09-10, 01:01   Link #1006
Jimmy C
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
If we assume the Power of HEAT and HE round is both 1, then the HEAT round with an efficiency of 1 can defeat a tank with a resistance of 1x1=1. A HE round can only defeat a tank with a resistance of 1x0.1 = 0.1.
And why isn't it possible to flip the argument over and say, since a HE round of 10 is needed to destroy a tank, then the HE round had a power of 10 instead of 1. Why are you insisting that the HE round must be equal in power and therefore too puny to destroy a tank, when you are conceeding that it's a proper tank already?

Edit: Nevermind that. I just realized you're doing what I called you on some time ago, piling speculation on top of speculation and calling the result a conclusion. You assume the Mariage's HE round was of a certain power with no further indications as to whether your assumption was justified or not. Then you further assumed that this would be inadequate to destroy what you consider a tank. Finally, you make a "conclusion" that a defense against this attack was weak because the attack itself was weak. Actually, that's just further speculation.

Last edited by Jimmy C; 2010-09-10 at 05:30.
Jimmy C is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-09-10, 07:55   Link #1007
arkhangelsk
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimmy C View Post
And why isn't it possible to flip the argument over and say, since a HE round of 10 is needed to destroy a tank, then the HE round had a power of 10 instead of 1. Why are you insisting that the HE round must be equal in power and therefore too puny to destroy a tank, when you are conceeding that it's a proper tank already?

Edit: Nevermind that. I just realized you're doing what I called you on some time ago, piling speculation on top of speculation and calling the result a conclusion. You assume the Mariage's HE round was of a certain power with no further indications as to whether your assumption was justified or not. Then you further assumed that this would be inadequate to destroy what you consider a tank. Finally, you make a "conclusion" that a defense against this attack was weak because the attack itself was weak. Actually, that's just further speculation.
Having decided to join a debate by asking clarification, I must say I'm hurt that you chose to cut to an accusatory mode, especially an accusation that is defaming and IMO flat out wrong.

The short answer to your question is that the scenario as presented in the soundtrack demanded it.

The long answer goes like this. We are first given the following facts. First, we are told the round is HE, and that it is to be fired from a arm-based howitzer.
  • From this, we can already infer that the gun's caliber and length is limited due to the origin of its material with 2nd order consequences on the shell's likely caliber (it'll be small) and speed, and further, because it is fired from a roughly man-sized hull, its recoil is limited for simple reasons of balance, which naturally has consequences for the launched shell's speed and weight.
  • As a bonus, you may choose to read the word "howitzer" literally (historically, length of 15-25 calibers), and along with knowledge of the length of a human arm, come up with a likely range of calibers for the weapon, which will come out to around ~30-45mm (I divided my arm length of ~700mm by 15-25). This answer also seems to have a fair correspondence to the likely width of a arm-based weapon.
Please let me know what substantial objections you have to this part.

Next, we are given the actual sound of the shot and impact (a long delay). We can thus confirm the initial estimate that the shot speed would be low with observation. I hope this settles any objections you have with the speed.

Next, we are told that the shot just fired can kill a tank. The type of tank is not specified. We may wait for the actual damage observation to show up, but in the meantime:
  • The round type has already been identified as HE, which means this tank will be destroyed by a round with an extremely inefficient mode of destruction against armor. No matter how high a capability one fantasizes a Belkan HE round to have, on the question of armor-piercing as long as geometry still exists it'll be a pale shadow of a Belkan HEAT round. So, unless we assume without proof that Belkan projectiles overmatch Belkan armor by an absurd amount (to the point where ironically an unarmored Belkan combat vehicle gains plausibility because the armor is too useless), I think we'll have to conclude that even on this basis alone, it is a light tank (by Belkan standards) that's being discussed here).
  • The approximate round speed has been plotted.
  • According to the best available information (the fact it is arm-morphed and its name can hardly hurt), we have also managed to localize the probable size - small caliber
Small, slow, inefficient round. Now, JimmyC, if you don't conclude from the above information that the tank is very weak for such a round to be able to destroy it, I'm eager to hear your reasons.

Now, we are actually given a candidate observation of the damage done. I say candidate here because it is in a source that's definitely secondary relative to the main source (SSX soundtrack), and the very previous picture shows that it is probably not meant to be literal. I'm very happy to just ignore it and go on prediction here. Nevertheless, Kaijo ironically shows more enthusiasm than me for taking it literally (if only he can show such enthusiasm regarding other, more-highly canon visuals). Fine.

The candidate observation shows a very low amount of damage (confirming our prediction) on target. Since at Kaijo's insistence I've included it as valid, I'm forced to feed him what the image means. Which is, of course, round destructive power is extremely low.

As for the whole thing about paper mache tanks or firecrackers, they are entirely Kaijo's exaggerated assertions. I do not violently object to them only because he has nevertheless correctly identified, IMO, the author's basic drive on this.

As you can see, every step of the procedure leading up to the conclusion that the rounds are rather weak has its origins in canon. As usual I'm sure some would oppose my ultra-literalist take, but I don't see why a theory that actually uses every piece of available in-zone evidence should be considered inferior to one that uses one piece (the word "tank") to the exclusion of all others, much less be considered a "piling of speculation on speculation".

I am hurt, and puzzled.
arkhangelsk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-09-10, 10:26   Link #1008
Jimmy C
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
First, we are told the round is HE, and that it is to be fired from a arm-based howitzer.
From this, we can already infer that the gun's caliber and length is limited due to the origin of its material with 2nd order consequences on the shell's likely caliber
No we cannot. Have you forgotten the size difference between a Device's inactive and active modes? Is it that hard to believe the morphed cannon had a larger diameter than the original arm? Do you have absolute proof that this cannot have happened? If you say, "there was no sfx to indicate it did." I'll say, "it was silent, so?" In the end, we're both making assumptions that best help our position.

Quote:
Next, we are given the actual sound of the shot and impact (a long delay).
Small, slow, inefficient round. Now, JimmyC, if you don't conclude from the above information that the tank is very weak for such a round to be able to destroy it, I'm eager to hear your reasons.
I have a demo charge in hand, I get within throwing distance to a tank and toss it with all my strength onto the tank. The demo charge travels slooowly (compared to even the slowest fired projectiles) and hits the tank, then the trigger detonates the charge, blowing up the tank. Where in that situation is speed relevant to the destructiveness of the charge?
Similarly, it doesn't matter how fast or slow a high explosive round was going. If the detonation of the explosive charge is adequate to destroy a tank, does it make any difference if it's going at 10m/s or 50m/s? You assumed that the speed of the round mattered, it doesn't.

You also assumed that the charge in the round fired was "light," too light to damage what you consider a "true tank." This time, you feel you have justification from the following:
Quote:
Now, we are actually given a candidate observation of the damage done.
The candidate observation shows a very low amount of damage (confirming our prediction) on target.
As I recall, Kaijo already countered you on this. You cannot definitively state whether the lack of damage is due to weak explosives or strong defenses (including all possible Barrier Jackets, Autobarriers, Shields, Barriers, etc) What do you have to completely negate the "strong defense" argument? Bringing in examples of defenses of other mages in other situations can't count because performance varies, even for the same individual under different situations.

Without that, you're simply disregarding the alternative that weakens your position. You assumed that the explosive used was weak, I assumed Subaru's defenses were strong. Once again, we're both making assumptions that best help our position.

And just in case you try to argue that the round fired cannot contain much explosive material (even though I already point out you cannot state the cannon didn't have a bigger diameter than the arm) I want to ask, do you know exactly how much more efficient was the explosive material the Mariage used compared to contemporary Earth ones? It could be better, could be lots better. You can no more prove that isn't the case than I can prove it is. In the end, you're simply assuming that it isn't while I'm assuming that it is. Once again, we're both making assumptions that best help our position.

This entire farce is due to you arguing from assumptions that best help your position while disregarding those that strengthen your opposition's. I'm not interested in making you change your position. I just refuse to let you carry on thinking that it's based on anything stronger than unprovable assumptions.
Jimmy C is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-09-10, 10:29   Link #1009
Kaijo
Banned
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Somewhere over the rainbow, in a house dropped on an ugly, old woman.
Send a message via AIM to Kaijo Send a message via MSN to Kaijo
Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
Huge difference. Let's try formula. Assume the Resistance of a Tank is 1, and it can be destroyed with a HEAT round with a Power of 1 and Penetration efficiency vs armor of 1 (so 1x1). A HE round is less efficient, so say an efficiency of 0.1. So, if it has to destroy the same tank, it'll need a Power of 10 (10x0.1=1).
Truly you have a dizzying intellect. But I'll play along for the moment, because you've basically admitted a flaw in your plan.

A HEAT round needs a power of 1 to destroy a tank.
An HE round needs a power of 10 to destroy a tank.

Thus, the HE round has a larger destructive capacity, ie, it will make a bigger boom. Place a bomb next to a concrete block the same size as you, and then stand next to the bomb. When it blows up, odds are the block will fare better than you. In order to make the mariage's words true, the blast would have to be big enough to take out the block, so it would need to be much bigger, ie, more powerful. And any such blast that could take out a concrete block, wouldn't leave much of you left over.

The real problem is exactly what Jimmy said; you're speculating. You're making up things in order to make your pet theory work. You're taking things and trying to jam them around your pre-conceived notion. That's not how science works. You take what we know and use that to form the most likely answer.

What the mariage fired can destroy a tank. That requires a fairly large explosion. Any such explosion that would consume a heavily armored target like a tank, would completely vaporize any smaller unarmored target.

That's what we call facts.

Also, you're forgetting that Earth has nothing like the mariage, so even trying to guess a maximum or minimum for its power level is a fool's errand. They are clearly more highly advanced than anything we have, so it's highly likely that they could compensate easily for any recoil or size of shell via any number of advanced methods. Since it's audio only, we can't say.

So again, trying to cram the mariage into your little box is a fool's errand.

Quote:
Since we are dealing with magic's effects on our physical world, YES.
Since you like formula, solve 4x + 5y +6z + 7. Here's a hint: you can't, because there are unknown variables. Since magic doesn't follow physical rules, the only way to formulate any theories is to observe what it does in practice. And given that we are discovering new ways to use magic and new properties or effects all the time, it's almost impossible to sa

Quote:
Actually, there are 5. You waved 2 more away under the broad, unspecific, unfalsifiable banner of invisible magic, and the last you again tried to rewrite the scenario given. Remember?
I was referring to just Vita and Nanoha as they are the only ones of note, but you're the expert on rewriting each situation. I assume one of those other situations you're referring to is Rein's BJ getting cut by the flapping of an insect's wing. You want science, eh? It's scientifically impossible for the flap of an insect's wing to cut Rein's clothing. If it was, then her clothing would dissolve the moment she made any kind of movement.

So, how do you rationalize this away again?

But you're still being disingenuous by not acknowledging the unified theory. Everytime a BJ was destroyed by a non-magic attack, it was either due to the target being weakened in some manner already, or a more powerful attack than the target.

That one explanation covers everything. Whereas you continue to want to see the BJ/AB as something so incredibly weak, it'll break and fall apart when someone moves, despite the fact that it's managed to save the lives of numerous mages who have taken kinetic impacts. As was pointed out, Nanoha and Fate smashing into buildings. If an insect's wing can rip a BJ, then there is no way they should have been able to survive those impacts. Even older Nanoha shouldn't have survived being slammed into several walls by Vivio.

Your love of physics says that's impossible.

Quote:
Kaijo's problem is that he wants to assume the Miriage was at least talking about a medium tank, even when the observations don't pan out.
Actually, I only said a medium tank to average the difference as a concession to you. Personally, when she said "tank" I assume any tank, from light to heavy. Doesn't matter, because the explosion from her HE round would have been strong enough to take out any of them. Now, it might have just done enough damage to a heavy tank to render it immobile and ruin the weaponry, but that's sufficient for a kill. Still, such an explosion that would do that, would pretty much render tear apart a light tank.

And any explosion that could do that to tanks, would render any normal humanoid-sized figure into mush. At the least, it would strip Subaru naked by burning away her paper mache BJ (if we go by your theory that it's fairly weak). Even if it's non-flammable, the sheer force of the blast would tear it to shreds.

Quote:
Your theory is based on allowing your fantasies to override the actual results.
As much as I hate saying this, that would be you. You're the one who has a contradiction problem. Since the BJ is so weak, any explosion that could take out even a light tank, should have left Subaru naked. The fact that we have a picture of her not naked, and her BJ still mostly intact, speaks otherwise. You have a problem.

Quote:
The ability to destroy an object in real life is not determined solely by the ratio of its mass vs the projectile. It includes the toughness of the target (including resistance to stress and heat), the amount of explosion actually absorbed ... etc. In fact, a lighter target may have the advantage in survivability because it is easier to blow away, thus dispersing the force of the blast than something that can't move.
But the mass IS a factor. You can't dismiss that. To get an idea of the forces involved, let's take a look at an F-4 crashing into a concrete wall. The wall represents our tank, and the F-4 gives us our explosion. No figure out humanoid sized could withstand that impact.

The problem with all your intellectual masturbation over possible shell size, cannon size, etc. is that we're still dealing with a very advanced piece of technology: the mariage. Your figures really aren't relevant because they can easily have access to shells of the same size, but greater destructive power. So even a 15mm cannon can pack more explosive force than our Earth weapons., thus you really need to stop trying to show off how much you know about Earth military technology, because the analogies don't hold. The only thing we know is that a mariage could take out a tank with an HE shell fired by turning it's arm into a howitzer.

The alternate explanation you are trying to avoid, is that it means the mariage has access to higher technology than Earth, and thus Earth weapons and a mariage's weapons aren't comparable at all.

Quote:
BTW, real disingenuity is to continue to allow your GUESSES about what the Miriage is saying to override the reality fed into your face.
This is real amusing to everyone else here, because we can all see that you are guessing. You can't compare to magic or the advanced tech of a mariage. Those are two big unknown variables in your equation, and thus you can't solve it using Earth weapons.

The reality is that Subaru's BJ survived an HE shot that the technological-advanced weapon of destruction calculated could take out a technological-advanced Belkan tank. No amount of speculation or twisting of reality by you will override that fact.

But we will continue to derive enjoyment from watching you try. So please, keep at it. We're having a lot of fun with this. =)
Kaijo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-09-10, 12:08   Link #1010
Wild Goose
Truth Martyr
*Author
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Doing Anzu's paperwork.
Age: 28
Regards to sizes:

I want to point out that the Panzerfaust 3 and RPG-29 can have warheads ranging from 60mm to 90mm caliber - a tad bigger than ark's guesstimated size, but still fairly smallish.

I'd also like to point out that the original Panzerfaust was utilised in like manner to the Marriage's weapon; in this case instead of the user holding the tube, the tube is built-in.

I'd also like to point out that the Panzerfaust was capable of killing tanks of its era, and that it had a fairly small warhead - the shaped charge was only 800 grams, the rest of the weight of the weapon being propellant, casing, etc; and had a speed of 45m/s. Which meant that for ranges in excess of 45 meters it would take several seconds to travel the distance (admittedly it lacked sufficient propellant to do so - typical engagement being either point blank ambush or from about 60 meters).

So a weapon taking several seconds to hit? Doesn't nescessarily mean anything.

Also, regards HE and HEAT:

Using HE as a catchall term isn't accurate as there are various means of using high explosives to defeat armor. High Explosive Anti Tank is the most common: essentially a warhead that when it detonates, forces a jet stream of metal to punch through armor.

The point about HEAT rounds being less effective on living bodies is probably due to the fact that a human body won't have enough resistance for the warhead to make contact and detonate - it'll just go through the body.

High Explosive Squash Head is a bit different: it uses thin metal shells filled with explosives and a delayed action fuse. The warhead hits the target, the explosive is squashed against the surface, and then the fuze detonates, resulting in transmission of a shockwave through the outer surface and through the tank.

What that means is that the outer armor remains mostly intact but a shockwave is transmitted through the armor along with spalling, causing damage and killing the crew inside the vehicle.

What's pertinent to this discussion? HESH rounds are fired at lower velocities to maximise the amount of explosive sticking in on point, rather than being dispersed from a high velocity impact.

Generally speaking though, using both types of weapon on a human body, it's debatable as to whether the human body would be able to set off the triggers. Though as with the .50cal Raufoss HE/API round, even if the explosive isn't triggered, you've just been hit with a large warhead - the explosion is the least of your worries.
__________________
~Speaking my mind, even when it costs me~
One must forgive one's enemies, but not before they are hanged.Heinrich Heine.

I believe in miracles.

Wild Goose is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-09-10, 21:48   Link #1011
Nagumo
Random Translator
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: New Brunswick
... I have a question, have you considered that Subaru might have cast a barrier type magic off scene as she plunged into the flames? I mean, recall that Erio had to reinforce his Barrier Jacket in SSX to better endure the intense heat of the flames as he fought the Mariage.

Now, what prevents Subaru from using further magic for better protection? Not only is she in a dangerous situation where the very walls and ceilings could collapse on her, but also fire and electrocution risks as well. Not only that, she knows that the Mariage are crawling all over the place....

I don't know guys but you know, there is a chance she decided to double up on protection. She even set up a small barrier to better protect Ixpellia from getting hit but shrapnel/damage.

I was just reading the Japanese Nanohawiki and came across an entire list of protection and shield magic.

# バリアタイプ

* プロテクション(Protection)
* ワイドエリアプロテクション(Wide Area Protection)
* ライトニングプロテクション(Lightning Protection)
* プロテクション・パワード(Protection Powered)
* バリアバースト(Barrier Burst)
* ディフェンサー(Defensor)
* ディフェンサープラス(Defensor Plus)
* サークルプロテクション(Circle Protection)
* スフィアプロテクション(Sphere Protection)
* 防御魔法
* ホイールプロテクション(Wheel Protection)

# シールドタイプ

* ラウンドシールド(Round Shield)
__________________
I do not like Kansai-ben, but I do like Hayate-chan!
Also, Canadian here, not actually Japanese.
Nagumo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-09-10, 22:14   Link #1012
Kaijo
Banned
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Somewhere over the rainbow, in a house dropped on an ugly, old woman.
Send a message via AIM to Kaijo Send a message via MSN to Kaijo
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nagumo View Post
... I have a question, have you considered that Subaru might have cast a barrier type magic off scene as she plunged into the flames? I mean, recall that Erio had to reinforce his Barrier Jacket in SSX to better endure the intense heat of the flames as he fought the Mariage.

Now, what prevents Subaru from using further magic for better protection? Not only is she in a dangerous situation where the very walls and ceilings could collapse on her, but also fire and electrocution risks as well. Not only that, she knows that the Mariage are crawling all over the place....

I don't know guys but you know, there is a chance she decided to double up on protection. She even set up a small barrier to better protect Ixpellia from getting hit but shrapnel/damage.
It's an interesting theory, but there are a few things to keep in mind. The first one being that you have a wide list of spells there, but I doubt she cast a "Protection from powerful HE explosions" spell. Fire, maybe. And as you noted, it wasn't noted at all whether Subaru cast something, so we don't know.

Also, the auto-barrier and barrier jacket are passive defenses, always on. The other spells need to be cast to be active, and most mages only cast those when there is a direct need, and cancel it as soon as possible afterward. Subaru only shielded Ix to protect her while she fought the Mariage leader, and if such a thing was deliberately done, we probably would have seen any spells Subaru cast on herself.

We can make guesses all day long, but the truth is that it all comes down to what we know for sure. Unless told otherwise, we pretty much have to take things at face value. As long as there is no contradiction, then there really shouldn't be a problem.
Kaijo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-09-11, 02:09   Link #1013
Arkeus
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Another point is Erio is a speedster, while Subaru is a Tank. It is probable Subaru's normal BJ is more armored than Erio's once he cast a field to protect against fire.

And, yes, those are fields.
Arkeus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-09-11, 06:48   Link #1014
Keroko
Adeptus Animus
*Author
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Age: 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arkeus View Post
Another point is Erio is a speedster, while Subaru is a Tank. It is probable Subaru's normal BJ is more armored than Erio's once he cast a field to protect against fire.

And, yes, those are fields.
You're right, Subaru does have a more armored BJ. According to the booklet:



So if both Erio and Subaru switched to their most powerful Jackets, it's very likely Subaru's defenses would outclass Erio's, since hers were designed with armor in mind.
__________________
Keroko is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-09-11, 07:13   Link #1015
Dr. Casey
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Tennessee
Age: 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaijo View Post
Since you like formula, solve 4x + 5y +6z + 7. Here's a hint: you can't, because there are unknown variables.)
22xyz, imo.
Dr. Casey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-09-11, 08:13   Link #1016
Arkeus
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Quote:
Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
You're right, Subaru does have a more armored BJ. According to the booklet:



So if both Erio and Subaru switched to their most powerful Jackets, it's very likely Subaru's defenses would outclass Erio's, since hers were designed with armor in mind.
Yeah, and rmemeber than even then Subaru requested her 'normal' mode to be even heavier after ep 17.
Arkeus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-09-11, 20:43   Link #1017
itanshi1
Writer, Jester, MtG nerd
 
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Nanoha Used Car Dealership. RERISE!
Send a message via AIM to itanshi1 Send a message via MSN to itanshi1
Ah, so Subaru is a tank :3
__________________
For those that belittle their favorite characters, complain about pairings, complain about oversexed images. Stop, thank you.

Fear Anxiety Doubt is but a fad. The life of a fad depends entirely on the willingness to support it. Difficulty is a choice. Determination is a path. Your next great idea after your destination is the true goal.
itanshi1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-09-12, 12:44   Link #1018
DezoPenguin
Beta by Accident
*Author
 
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Maine
Age: 42
Quote:
Originally Posted by itanshi1 View Post
Ah, so Subaru is a tank :3
Well, that explains why Mariage used the "this round can destroy a tank" comparison! Completely logical and meaningful reference, then!
DezoPenguin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-09-15, 20:24   Link #1019
ZeroXSEED
I am no one
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Inside your head
Lightbulb

Quote:
Originally Posted by DezoPenguin View Post
Well, that explains why Mariage used the "this round can destroy a tank" comparison! Completely logical and meaningful reference, then!
Quote:
Originally Posted by itanshi1 View Post
Ah, so Subaru is a tank :3
AND Backtracking to the very first and second season, everyone is thrown here and there into concretes. The most dramatic, for me, when Nanoha cornered by Vita. Seriously, even without the barrier/field/shield, Barrier jacket are stronger than anyone can expect.
Even in the earlier operation in StrikerS, we can see that Erio's getting his ass handed by a giant drone, in a FREAKING train (I suppose it's an armored train, therefore has thick armor). Keep in mind that this is ERIO, a speedster with low protection.

It's no wonder heavy-class barrier jacket like that one worn by Subaru can soak antitank damage when light-class jacket owned by Erio can breaching through a thick metal plate while getting his ass kicked.
ZeroXSEED is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-09-15, 20:40   Link #1020
Random Wanderer
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Barrier Jackets are hardcore protection. Do not be fooled by their appearances. These things keep some rather squishy mages from being splattered by forces that SHOULD reduce a human to a smear on the concrete. I don't know who invented and standardized the concept; this mixing of various protective magics into an easily-summonable and wearable form; but they probably deserved some sort of award for it.
Random Wanderer is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 04:35.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
We use Silk.