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Old 2010-09-12, 07:14   Link #1261
Leafsnail
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cmos View Post
Good thing, then, that the stake wasn't smashed in her head like that and just lied nearby. And it's not that hard to shoot yourself in the head and use some simple device to make a weapon disappear after that. Ryu sure loves the tricks from classics.
No, the stake was in her head. Battler just pulled it out.

And, considering how much trouble that closed room gave Battler, there isn't all that much red about it.
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Old 2010-09-12, 08:51   Link #1262
cmos
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Originally Posted by Leafsnail View Post
No, the stake was in her head. Battler just pulled it out.
I've posted the direct quote on the previous page. Battler described the lying stake even before he had touched Shannon to check.
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Old 2010-09-12, 10:49   Link #1263
LyricalAura
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Originally Posted by cmos View Post
I've posted the direct quote on the previous page. Battler described the lying stake even before he had touched Shannon to check.
In the anime, however, the stake was stuck in Shannon's head shallowly. It fell out when Battler checked her wound.

I also think you'll have a hard time arguing for the existence of Weapon Hiding Device X when Battler found no evidence of such a thing.
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Old 2010-09-12, 11:44   Link #1264
cmos
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Originally Posted by LyricalAura View Post
In the anime, however, the stake was stuck in Shannon's head shallowly. It fell out when Battler checked her wound.
In the anime, Gohda was lying face up, even though it's plainly stated in the vn that he was face down. And George and Gohda had the stakes in their hearts, even though it's supposed to be the center of the stomach and the center of the chest.
Spoiler for anime caps:

Such glaring factual mistakes make you doubt the rest of information.
Quote:
I also think you'll have a hard time arguing for the existence of Weapon Hiding Device X when Battler found no evidence of such a thing.
There were no clues for such "device" in the classics, IIRC. That gives Ryu a moral right to skip them too.
In any case, it's much easier to argue about some rubber band than about how the stakes ended up in their places in another way, especially if you don't want to accept suicide.
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Old 2010-09-12, 11:57   Link #1265
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Actually, yeah, that's probably where I got it, since I remember Battler pulling it out of her head.

...Hmm, how was it not in George's stomach in the anime, anyway?
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Old 2010-09-12, 12:49   Link #1266
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Originally Posted by Leafsnail View Post
Actually, yeah, that's probably where I got it, since I remember Battler pulling it out of her head.

...Hmm, how was it not in George's stomach in the anime, anyway?
lolDEEN.

As for the death of Shannon, I maintain it was a physical suicide.
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Old 2010-09-12, 12:55   Link #1267
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Originally Posted by TehChron View Post
As for the death of Shannon, I maintain it was a physical suicide.
Rika-style but with a stake?
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Old 2010-09-12, 13:30   Link #1268
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Originally Posted by TehChron View Post
lolDEEN.

As for the death of Shannon, I maintain it was a physical suicide.
I seriously encourage the use of Van Dine 18 here.
Quote:
18. A crime in a detective story must never turn out to be an accident or a suicide. To end an odyssey of sleuthing with such an anti-climax is to hoodwink the trusting and kind-hearted reader.
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Old 2010-09-12, 13:53   Link #1269
LyricalAura
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Originally Posted by cmos View Post
Such glaring factual mistakes make you doubt the rest of information.
Or else we should conclude that the wound locations and whether Gohda was face up or face down were irrelevant. Arguably we should have concluded that already. The culprit has never been particularly careful about whether the stakings exactly lined up with the epitaph or not, and Battler wasn't in a frame of mind to nitpick about it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cmos
There were no clues for such "device" in the classics, IIRC. That gives Ryu a moral right to skip them too.
In any case, it's much easier to argue about some rubber band than about how the stakes ended up in their places in another way, especially if you don't want to accept suicide.
The facts of the crime scene are that Shannon had a head wound resembling a gunshot, but she was slumped face-down on the dresser in front of a shattered mirror. Battler wondered if she saw her face in it before she died, so she probably wasn't lying on any of the glass shards, which means that it was broken at the moment of her death or afterwards. What device can you propose that will both shoot her and shatter the mirror and leave her in that position?

If you want another explanation, how about someone locking the door after being mortally wounded? Either George or Gohda could have done it.

EDIT:
Additionally, didn't Beato repeatedly tell Battler that Device X was a worthless argument? She doesn't like them, so why would she include them in her story?
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Old 2010-09-12, 13:57   Link #1270
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Originally Posted by LyricalAura View Post
Or else we should conclude that the wound locations and whether Gohda was face up or face down were irrelevant. Arguably we should have concluded that already. The culprit has never been particularly careful about whether the stakings exactly lined up with the epitaph or not, and Battler wasn't in a frame of mind to nitpick about it.
My thoughts exactly.

If my theory is correct,then if something in the anime is shown differently in the VN,then that is to make sure you know that it could have been done either way.
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Old 2010-09-12, 15:59   Link #1271
cmos
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Originally Posted by LyricalAura View Post
Or else we should conclude that the wound locations and whether Gohda was face up or face down were irrelevant.
They are relevant when you try to construct an alternative explanation. This is a crime scene, you know. You shouldn't just disregard everything there. And if the details of the killings are irrelevant, don't use them as your proofs at all.
Quote:
The culprit has never been particularly careful about whether the stakings exactly lined up with the epitaph or not
Except he was. The gun-like wounds are always at the right spots. Sometimes stakes "fall out" from the wound and lay nearby. Well, except for ep4, but there Beatrice had her reasons to not care enough already. Anime failed at this.


Quote:
What device can you propose that will both shoot her and shatter the mirror and leave her in that position?
Do I really need to explain such trivial things, that were probably discussed in a hundred threads? Read "And Then There Were None", the favorite novel of Yasu.
Shannon (or should I say Beatrice) killed the other two, staked them properly, shattered the mirror (nowhere it says that it was shattered by the stake), put the stake on the dresser, tied one end of some rubber band or something similar ("spiderweb" against the witch, stealing things) to a back of the dresser, or under the bed, or somewhere else and another end to the gun. Shot herself in the head. The gun slided somewhere.

Quote:
If you want another explanation, how about someone locking the door after being mortally wounded? Either George or Gohda could have done it.
They probably could (except the stakes in the hearts in anime kinda disprove this), but try to reconstruct the whole scene without contradictions and in a way that would make sense by itself and with the rest of the story. And if the culprit wasn't planning to commit suicide in this room, that means that his death was an accident. Dine's rule (in your interpretation) doesn't work nonetheless. Unless you want to say that the culprit is someone else. Well, we only have Genji, but that violates another Dine's rule, because he was declared to be not the culprit in ep1. Not to mention Clair's confession.

Quote:
Additionally, didn't Beato repeatedly tell Battler that Device X was a worthless argument?
Because he doesn't actually explain anything or uses a ridiculous, almost fantasy explanation. When you've explained the trick it becomes a legitimate trick for a closed room and not just "some unknown trick X".


Quote:
Originally Posted by DgBarca View Post
I seriously encourage the use of Van Dine 18 here.
The crime wasn't just suicide. The crime was killing the other 15-16 people.
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Old 2010-09-12, 16:16   Link #1272
Judoh
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Originally Posted by cmos View Post
There's no such red in ep2. You have no proof at all, that Will's rules apply.
I'm not talking about Will's rules. My point was that every other closed room hasn't been suicide. I'm not the one with the burden of proof. You have to prove that the author would use suicide in only this closed room murder when every other murder has always been a homicide or a pseudocide.

And Again like I said 'all deaths were homicides' has been proclaimed with the red truth.

Quote:
He clearly narrates it from the first person:
[I]Shannon-chan's corpse was face down in front of the dresser, lying in a sea of blood.
...Because she was face down, I couldn't see her face, but I could imagine even without seeing it.
Nearby, in the sea of blood she lay in, a demon's stake had fallen...
Maybe my heart was completely tired out and dead...
Like I said he's clearly saying in his narration that he imagined the stake fell. He never saw Shannon's stake fall at all.

Last edited by Judoh; 2010-09-12 at 16:42.
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Old 2010-09-12, 17:19   Link #1273
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It could be the old ep2 trick of "The door was never locked in the first place". I think a fake death from George or Gohda are still possible for that one, too.
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Old 2010-09-12, 17:22   Link #1274
cmos
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Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
My point was that every other closed room hasn't been suicide. I'm not the one with the burden of proof. You have to prove why the author would use suicide in only this closed room murder when every other murder has always been a homicide or a pseudocide.
Just because some trick was used only once doesn't mean that it couldn't have been used once. All the twilights were over and it was a nice opportunity to create a good locked room.
Strictly speaking she always uses suicide as her last measure, because she always sets up the bomb, which kills her in ep1, for example.

Quote:
And Again like I said 'all deaths were homicides' has been proclaimed with the red truth.
...for the unfinished games 5-6, that is.

Quote:
Like I said he's clearly saying in his narration that he imagined the stake fell. He never saw Shannon's stake fall at all.
Actually, there are 2 more lines after this that I skipped as unimportant.
Quote:
...Because she was face down, I couldn't see her face, but I could imagine even without seeing it.
Nearby, in the sea of blood she lay in, a demon's stake had fallen...
......Only the fourth twilight was left.
Gouge the head and kill...
He just says, that after clearly seeing the stakes in Gohda's chest and George's stomach, it's easy to guess where Shannon's wound is.
Now, if he didn't see it, why would he imagine that the stake had fallen from her head? It's natural to assume that the stake wound be stuck in her head, and not lying nearby, but he clearly "imagines" that it had fallen.




Quote:
Originally Posted by Leafsnail View Post
It could be the old ep2 trick of "The door was never locked in the first place".
Except unlike the chapel it's clearly stated as locked: Natsuhi's room was exactly the same, just like usual! The door and the windows were locked from the inside. There is no fraud or trick, there is no means of secret passage and no hidden place! Natsuhi's own key was in George's pocket, and the inside of the room was closed off. Only the five master keys were left, and 'Rosa' was holding all of them! And let me say this, the parlor's the same. The original key to the parlor is sealed in the servants' room. So unlocking it without the master key is impossible! The definition of a closed room is the same as always!
Quote:
I think a fake death from George or Gohda are still possible for that one, too.
「第2のゲーム、第四、第五、第六の晩。夏妃の密室にて生き残りし者はなし。」
「土は土に。……棺桶が密室であることに、疑問を挟む者はいない。」
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Old 2010-09-12, 17:27   Link #1275
Judoh
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Originally Posted by Leafsnail View Post
It could be the old ep2 trick of "The door was never locked in the first place". I think a fake death from George or Gohda are still possible for that one, too.
Nope Battler did some actual detective work there.

Quote:
This time, Genji-san asked Rosa oba-san to unlock the door, instead of the other way around. After making a slightly unhappy face, Rosa oba-san handed me a master key, and told me to open the door.

Rosa:......Battler-kun, would you open it for me with this?"

Battler: Just trusting Genji-san with something like that wouldn't..."

Rosa oba-san glared at me with an intense gaze.......Getting into a fight here would only make the environment turn even more sour.

Without talking back any more, I approached that creepy door, and tried the knob. ......It didn't open. It was definitely the resistance of the lock.
I stuck the master key into the keyhole.

*clunk*. There was a light resistance.

While listening to Rosa oba-san as she told me to take care, I opened the door without taking any particular care.
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Old 2010-09-12, 17:34   Link #1276
Judoh
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Strictly speaking she always uses suicide as her last measure, because she always sets up the bomb, which kills her in ep1, for example.
Then she can just fake her death or take sleeping pills and let the bomb kill her. She doesn't need to shoot herself so that her brain are falling out. She wouldn't even need to because nobody is going to find her body after it blows up anyway.

Quote:
...for the unfinished games 5-6, that is.
If we can apply Natsuhi isn't the culprit to all games, and Krauss isn't the culprit to all games, and Nanjo, Kumasawa and Genji aren't murderers to all games. Then I am allowed to apply all deaths were homicides to all games as a core truth without any kind of hypocrisy.

Last edited by Judoh; 2010-09-12 at 17:49.
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Old 2010-09-12, 19:32   Link #1277
Jan-Poo
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Originally Posted by cmos View Post
「第2のゲーム、第四、第五、第六の晩。夏妃の密室にて生き残りし者はなし。」
「土は土に。棺桶が密室であることに、疑問を挟む者はいない。」
What exactly does this mean?

I mean.. "the closed room is a coffin", "there are no persons that can give problems", or whatever... I don't understand what exactly Will is telling us, how does it explain the closed room?
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Old 2010-09-12, 20:02   Link #1278
LyricalAura
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
What exactly does this mean?

I mean.. "the closed room is a coffin", "there are no persons that can give problems", or whatever... I don't understand what exactly Will is telling us, how does it explain the closed room?
"In the second game, at the fourth, fifth, and sixth twilights. No survivors remain within Natsuhi's closed room."
"Dust to dust. ...There is no one who would argue against a coffin being a closed room."

There's two ways to interpret that.
  • The person who created the closed room died inside it.
  • All the observers think that the victims died inside the locked room, when they actually didn't.
Depends on how indirect Will is being, but the answer to that question seems to be "very" based on his other answers.
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Old 2010-09-12, 20:17   Link #1279
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Uh... but you close a coffin by nailing it shut, right? You don't throw a living person in, get them to lock it inside and wait for them to die...
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Old 2010-09-12, 20:28   Link #1280
Jan-Poo
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Right, I would definitely argue against the statement that a coffin is a closed room. A coffin can't possibly be a closed room if according to the definition it must be closed from inside.
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