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Old 2010-09-12, 23:06   Link #1281
TehChron
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DgBarca View Post
I seriously encourage the use of Van Dine 18 here.
I counter that with the death of Kanon in the first game.

Moreover, the suicide itself isnt the crime of the story, therefore Dine's 18th doesnt apply to a suicide being a part of the story being told itself.

Quote:
Rika-style but with a stake?
A truly epic head-desking, but yes.

We would be using "motive x", but it'd work.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
Right, I would definitely argue against the statement that a coffin is a closed room. A coffin can't possibly be a closed room if according to the definition it must be closed from inside.
Personality death, followed by a suicide? Or perhaps someone faked their death?

Actually, if we take the tact that someone faked their death in that room, then we could only conclude the individual to be George, since he's the only one of those three Battler didn't check.

Shannon personality death followed by George stomping Yasu's face into a stake and leaving it on the dresser?
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Old 2010-09-12, 23:18   Link #1282
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TehChron View Post
I counter that with the death of Kanon in the first game.

Moreover, the suicide itself isnt the crime of the story, therefore Dine's 18th doesnt apply to a suicide being a part of the story being told itself.
Uh....

(referring to Kanon's death in ep1)

All of the survivors have alibis! Let us include the dead as well!! In short, no kind of human or dead person on the island could have killed Kanon!

Kanon did not commit suicide

Kanon did not die in an accident!

again only pseudocide is left as an answer.
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Old 2010-09-12, 23:23   Link #1283
Frisko
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
Uh....

(referring to Kanon's death in ep1)

All of the survivors have alibis! Let us include the dead as well!! In short, no kind of human or dead person on the island could have killed Kanon!

Kanon did not commit suicide

Kanon did not die in an accident!

again only pseudocide is left as an answer.
Couldn't he have been killed by a trap set by someone who wasn't currently on the island?
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Old 2010-09-12, 23:23   Link #1284
TehChron
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
Uh....

(referring to Kanon's death in ep1)

All of the survivors have alibis! Let us include the dead as well!! In short, no kind of human or dead person on the island could have killed Kanon!

Kanon did not commit suicide

Kanon did not die in an accident!

again only pseudocide is left as an answer.
I was getting into personality death.

>_>

But w/e.
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Old 2010-09-13, 00:05   Link #1285
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I can name one theory that has to do with Kanon that has nothing to do with personalities, and fulfills the Red TRUTHS.

He faked his DEATH.

Where does it say in Red that he had DIED? It was never confirmed, Jessica and Nanjo were the ones who told the rest of Kanon's STATUS.
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Old 2010-09-13, 00:23   Link #1286
LyricalAura
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TehChron View Post
I was getting into personality death.

>_>

But w/e.
In this case at least, I can deny that personality death occurred.

Kanon didn't commit suicide, so he didn't kill his own personality. And, all of the survivors have alibis! Let us include the dead as well!! In short, no kind of human or dead person could have killed Kanon! This rules out all of the other human characters. The killer can be an alternate personality of Kanon, but only if personalities don't count as "survivors" or "humans".

However, it was established in EP3 that absolutely no factors other than humans participate in this game board. Therefore, personalities may not participate in this game board unless they are humans. Based on that contradiction, any kind of split personality is also ruled out as Kanon's murderer, so it's impossible for Kanon to be dead (barring Frisko's theory, which is probably a Knox violation).
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Old 2010-09-13, 03:28   Link #1287
cmos
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Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
Then she can just fake her death or take sleeping pills and let the bomb kill her. She doesn't need to shoot herself so that her brain are falling out. She wouldn't even need to because nobody is going to find her body after it blows up anyway.
But that won't look like the closed room murder. Battler will find it out. Her goal isn't just to kill herself, but to create a mystery. Impossible locked room murder, that proves that the witch did it. And don't forget that this episode is a pure fiction, meant to give us clues to her nature.

Quote:
If we can apply Natsuhi isn't the culprit to all games, and Krauss isn't the culprit to all games, and Nanjo, Kumasawa and Genji aren't murderers to all games. Then I am allowed to apply all deaths were homicides to all games as a core truth without any kind of hypocrisy.
I don't see a logic here. Ok, some information is true for all games for some reason (in this case the reason is clear - because the culprit in all games is another person). Does it mean that all information is true for all games? Does it mean that a random, unrelated other piece of information is true for all games? No.
Until a certain twilight, all deaths were homicides in any game. The late games were stopped early, so there were only homicides.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
What exactly does this mean?

I mean.. "the closed room is a coffin", "there are no persons that can give problems", or whatever... I don't understand what exactly Will is telling us, how does it explain the closed room?
It explains that they really are dead and not just faking. After that there are not so many possibilities left, especially if you know who the culprit is.
When Will detects that someone has faked their death or some other trick, he uses "Illusion to illusion" line. See his ep1 1st twilight (Shannon faked), 5th twilight (Kanon faked) explanations, for example. However, when the victims are really dead and there are no major illusions he uses "Earth to earth". See the murder of Rosa and Maria in ep3, that was almost immediately confirmed with red and he used that line for it.
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Old 2010-09-13, 07:47   Link #1288
Will Wright
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As for Will's "A coffin is not a locked room" I thought it was a reference to one of Ellery Queen's novels, that has almost the exact same quotation.

Spoiler:


So yeah, that's what I took it as. Almost all of Will's responses were, word per word, a quotation from some Golden Age detective. I just automatically assumed the same tricks were used for those locked rooms as the locked rooms/quotations were very similar.
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Old 2010-09-13, 08:03   Link #1289
cmos
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Originally Posted by Will Wright View Post
As for Will's "A coffin is not a locked room".
It may be a reference, but Will said that "There is no one who would argue against a coffin being a closed room.", not that "a coffin is not a locked room".
Could it be that the trick used is the opposite of what you've described and the victims really died in that room?

Last edited by cmos; 2010-09-13 at 08:21. Reason: better use LyricalAura's translation, I guess
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Old 2010-09-13, 08:08   Link #1290
Will Wright
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Originally Posted by cmos View Post
It may be a reference, but Will said that "no one would argue that a coffin is a closed room", not that "a coffin is not a locked room".
It's close enough. Besides I'm fairly sure Ellery says that as well. He rants about coffin and locked rooms a lot during his explanation. Let me check.

Alright, this part fits a bit better, though it still has locked room over closed room.

"The criminal wanted us to be chasing a ghost, chasing an illusion. But this locked room he so carefully prepared to us is useless. After all, a coffin is a coffin. No one would argue that a coffin is a locked room. Yet one person did. That person was, of course, the true murderer. Isn't that right, [here he points to the killer, so I'm going to cut it here]"
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Old 2010-09-13, 09:19   Link #1291
LyricalAura
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Then, what about a theory like this?

At the time Rosa had Battler open Natsuhi's room, she had all five master keys. The keys never left her hands after she gained possession of them. However, it was never confirmed that Rosa received each key at the time she believed she did. One of the "master keys" she acquired earlier was a fake. The culprit used the real key to construct the locked room, and then had Maria switch it with the fake key in her bag. This could have been done most easily during the time when Rosa and Battler were both asleep in the parlor.

...Although, the door and windows were locked from the inside so external tricks are probably all denied anyway.

EDIT:
Another version. Rosa was still in fake murder mode, and was fully aware that she'd received a fake key because this was planned ahead of time. While Battler was asleep in the parlor, the culprit passed the real key to her through the window. This is why she checked the window locks before leaving with Genji.
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Last edited by LyricalAura; 2010-09-13 at 10:07.
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Old 2010-09-13, 10:28   Link #1292
Will Wright
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Originally Posted by cmos View Post
Could it be that the trick used is the opposite of what you've described and the victims really died in that room?
It's possible, but it feels like too much of a stretch. But to be honest maybe Ryuukishi just felt like quoting random novels. Most of the novels he quoted are out of print(at least in the west), so he sure did his homework. Seriously some of the ones he quoted are so obscure that you can't even find it online, without looking hard. I don't believe Ellery Queen and Ngaio Marsh got translated in Japanese very often, but they could have.

Either way I have to say I was impressed with his quotations. They could be just obscure references that only 3 people in the world will get or clues. Either way I'm one of those 3 people so I'm happy.
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Old 2010-09-13, 10:43   Link #1293
Oliver
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Will Wright View Post
I don't believe Ellery Queen and Ngaio Marsh got translated in Japanese very often, but they could have.

Either way I have to say I was impressed with his quotations. They could be just obscure references that only 3 people in the world will get or clues. Either way I'm one of those 3 people so I'm happy.
I found that Erika's swimsuit and duct tape are a shout out to a short story by Clayton Rawson. Who's books in English are not just out of print but aren't even available in major paper libraries. The story was basically the only piece of his writing I was able to find online, and I looked hard.

Turns out, the most exhaustive reference list of his works is in Japanese. It's quite possible that more than three people in the world will get those references, but most of those who will are in Japan.
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Old 2010-09-13, 11:09   Link #1294
Will Wright
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It's worth noting that Clayton Rawson's novel Death from a Top Hat was ranked #7 in the list of best locked room mysteries of all time.

Which is worth noting, since the top 10 is pretty much taken over by Carr(who won 1st place, of course.)

Ryuukishi sure did his research. I was able to find Death from a Top hat, No Coffin for the Corpse and The Headless Lady. I found those 3 together last year. But I have yet to find his short stories anywhere.
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Old 2010-09-13, 11:35   Link #1295
Renall
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We checked on this; Rawson's work is, amusingly, vastly more available in Japan than it is in his native America. I'm quite surprised, honestly; you'd think there'd be some mystery libraries in America or something. It's possible there are, they're just probably a bit obscure. Certainly you can't find anything by Rawson at a public library in New York or Dallas (places I've lived and have library cards).

Except, amusingly, a book on children's magic by Rawson (a stage magician, he apparently did a lot of magic books in addition to mysteries) which the Dallas Public Library has.

EDIT: Now if we can just get a John MacDonald shout-out, I'll be content, but I suspect post-Golden Age American mystery fiction becomes a tenuous thing for Japanese consumption after Chandler or so.
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Old 2010-09-13, 11:52   Link #1296
cmos
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Originally Posted by LyricalAura View Post
Then, what about a theory like this?
So who's the culprit then?
Also:
Spoiler for ep4:


Do you trust Beato's non-red words by now, after 7 episodes, unlike Battler at that time? It's the matter that is directly connected with the point of her game, understanding her goals and her means.
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Old 2010-09-13, 13:04   Link #1297
Will Wright
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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
We checked on this; Rawson's work is, amusingly, vastly more available in Japan than it is in his native America. I'm quite surprised, honestly; you'd think there'd be some mystery libraries in America or something. It's possible there are, they're just probably a bit obscure. Certainly you can't find anything by Rawson at a public library in New York or Dallas (places I've lived and have library cards).

Except, amusingly, a book on children's magic by Rawson (a stage magician, he apparently did a lot of magic books in addition to mysteries) which the Dallas Public Library has.

EDIT: Now if we can just get a John MacDonald shout-out, I'll be content, but I suspect post-Golden Age American mystery fiction becomes a tenuous thing for Japanese consumption after Chandler or so.
From what I've heard, Chandler and so on are not very popular in Japan, though the Golden Age is very well known.
Japan took Britain's crown as the nation of mysteries some time ago, so it doesn't surprise me that they have those novels available.

It is also why I began to study Japanese literature.

Even with those novels available, it's still impressive how much Ryuukishi has read.

I mean, I don't know many mystery writers who actually read that much about mysteries. Even in Japan, for people to catch those ALL those references is...Yeah.

Ellery Queen and Van Dine were referenced a lot in episode 7, so I imagine those 2 are rather popular over there as well(as they should be!).
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Old 2010-09-13, 14:10   Link #1298
LyricalAura
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Originally Posted by cmos View Post
So who's the culprit then?
Jessica, Genji, Kumasawa, Nanjo. Pick one you like. I'm opening a line of inquiry, not proposing a grand unified theory. Don't give me that line about how Genji, Kumasawa, and Nanjo are not murderers either, because it can also be translated as "They are not the murderers [for the 6th-8th twilights of EP1]."

Quote:
Originally Posted by cmos
Do you trust Beato's non-red words by now, after 7 episodes, unlike Battler at that time? It's the matter that is directly connected with the point of her game, understanding her goals and her means.
I do trust Beato. I trust her intentions; she wants to present Battler with a mystery, but she also wants him to solve it, and she has a message she wants to send him with her writing. I trust her methods; she plays fair by the rules as she understands them, she has principles that she abides by, and she dislikes twisted semantics and things like hidden passages that would interfere with a fair game. I trust that if a scene is presented, she put it there for a reason and I should seek its meaning. Most of all, I trust that she knows what she's doing.

None of these things obliges me to swallow every word she says as truth. She is the witch, and her job is to mislead the detective, especially during a climactic logic battle. It's exactly because I trust her as a fair but skilled opponent that I want to understand her strategy in this scene.

When Beato said before that the door and windows were locked from the inside, it wasn't completely clear if she was confirming that the door was last locked from the inside or not (as opposed to saying that windows were locked from the inside and the door was just locked). If that is what she meant, then the whole premise of Battler's theory should have been denied from the outset. But instead of repeating that and continuing the fight elsewhere, Beato chose to follow that line of reasoning. Even Lambda, who had no trouble mocking Battler's other theories and declaring some of them ineffective, chose to specifically address that one with new information.

Why was this necessary? The information that the door was locked from the inside was already presented in a fantasy scene earlier. Shouldn't reinforcing that with red have just made the witch's illusion more solid? Or was this continuation followed because Battler was close to something important and his theory needed to be deflected, just like in the matter of the person count in EP3?

There is absolutely no conflict with anything Beato or Lambda said if Rosa never came into possession of the missing master key until after the murders occurred. Furthermore, because she was already confirmed to be cooperating with the servants to deceive Battler about a faked second twilight earlier in the day, there's not even any need for her to be a knowing accomplice of the culprit.
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Old 2010-09-13, 14:21   Link #1299
Jan-Poo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Will Wright View Post
As for Will's "A coffin is not a locked room" I thought it was a reference to one of Ellery Queen's novels, that has almost the exact same quotation.

Spoiler:


So yeah, that's what I took it as. Almost all of Will's responses were, word per word, a quotation from some Golden Age detective. I just automatically assumed the same tricks were used for those locked rooms as the locked rooms/quotations were very similar.

This is interesting. Considering this, it is possible that Will's answer doesn't have a meaning by itself.
What Will tried to do was to provide a proof that he solved the mysteries without telling the truth explicitly. The reason is that telling the truth hurts Beatrice (as we have seen in EP4 and EP5), so Will used the most merciful method (he didn't even use blue).

That however was only possible through a certain "code" that he and Beatrice would understand. Will as an inquisitor must certainly know the mystery genre and its canons, Beatrice is also an expert, so probably Will took for granted that Beatrice read Ellery Queen.

If my reasoning so far is correct, then what Will wanted to tell to Beatrice is: "You used the same trick Ellery Queen used in that book".

Now I only need to understand how exactly that can work in umineko.
The victims or one of the victims didn't die inside that room?

I don't get it...
Will can you tell us more about that closed room? Maybe the trick is not related to the bodies... how exactly was the closed room created?
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Old 2010-09-13, 14:49   Link #1300
Used Can
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
Now I only need to understand how exactly that can work in umineko.
The victims or one of the victims didn't die inside that room?
This may be a hint for ye: Natsuhi's own key was in George's pocket, and the inside of the room was closed off.
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