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Cael · 2010-09-19, 03:54

The difference between Danzou's and Madara's Izanagi seems unclear.

Madara casts Izanagi with his left eye, closing it permanently. Danzou casts it with 10 different Sharingans on his arm. And he requires Shodai's power to control all 10 sharingans.

But Madara states Danzou's jutsu is 'incomplete' referring to his inability to control Hashirama's power. Hmm, how does his lack of control over Shodai's power affect his jutsu? Well his chakras drop every time a sharingan closes, so this may be the point. Not enough control of Hashirama's power puts a strain on his chakra, causing them to plummet. After all, he did have both Uchiha and Senju Power, which Madara states are the requirements to use this technique. But he also states this is an Uchiha technique.

But how are Uchiha able to use Izanagi without the balance of Senju Power?
There must be a difference. This jutsu is closley tied to the sharingan, this much we know. But because it originates from the Rikudo, sharingan users don't have a complete jutsu. It says the Sage used this jutsu to 'create.' Uchiha it seems, can use Izanagi as a genjutsu, to make death an illusion by casting it on themselves. I believe this is the extent of Danzou's power, the same as the Uchiha. The ability to create, born from both Uchiha and Senju power, the Rikudo's power, is what makes it complete. Since Danzou can not control Shodai's power he can not use Izanagi to create. He can only use it the same way the Uchiha can use it, to make death an illusion for a brief moment. He just uses Shodai's cells to control 10 sharingans which in turn extend the length of the jutsu.

Madara claims to have control of Hashirama's power. So if he had this power since his fight at VotE, why wasn't he able to use or why didn't he use Izanagi against the Fourth? I wonder if he never gained Hashirama's power until after Danzou was defeated. If Danzou has the Shodai's face on his shoulder, then Hashirama must have returned from his fight against Madara. So even though Madara claims he fought to gain access to his abilities, doesn't mean he got those abilities then and there. So it could be that Madara was without the power of the Senju until after he had brought Danzou's body back to his lab with his collection of sharingans.

Madara also wonders to himself, after watching Danzou, that "it can't be easy to control Hashirama's powers..." If he had Hashirama's powers at that time, he wouldn't be wondering, he would know. Yet he claims to be the second Rikudo and Nagato the third. Even though he has Sharingan, not Rinnegan. And we have not seen him with rinnegan or evolved mangekyou sharingan since his battle at the VotE. Is he really the second Rikudo or does he consider himself the second because he is older and created a Rikudo? I don't think Madara is the type of person to relinquish a EMS or Rinnegan to a child. A child would know if his eyes were replaced. What we don't see is Nagato's Mother's face(actually we do, but just once). She is kept in the shadow. It's more likely that Nagato's mother is an Uzumaki. If Madara did not physically give Nagato new eyes, then the only other way is for him to be Nagato's true father. But wouldn't that also make Nagato an Uchiha? Is Nagato the result of an Uchiha father and Uzumaki mother? I've noticed that he has Madara's trade mark 'bag under the eye.' Whatever the circumstance, the man Nagato refers to as his parent, must be his adopted father, he just doesn't know it. He clearly has his mothers hair.

Either Madara is lying and he never had the Rinnegan or was considered a Rikudo, or he gained the Rinnegan/Rikudo Status briefly, and then lost it. As in, while fighting Hashirama, something happened, probably when he had control of the Kyuubi, only he lost it when the Kyuubi was wrestled from him and he was defeated. Because as we know, Naruto has shown signs of becoming the next Rikudo by gaining control of the Kyuubi.

It's also becoming more of a possibility that Zetsu has played a big role in Madara's survival. Madara has now lost his right arm twice and received damage to his left arm via the Fourth Hokage. Each time, a white goo resembling Zetsu's white half, is shown in place of blood. And now the left side of Madara's face is exposed but we see only black. Either because we are not meant to see it or because it is the black half of Zetsu's left face.

If Zetsu helped Madara survive his fight with Hashirama, after having the Kyuubi taken from him, and the Kyuubi's power was the source for him to briefly become Rikudo, and the Third Rikudo (Nagato) is really Madara's son, then the only question that remains is...

Who's in the Box?

If it can't be Madara, then it must be the Fourth. The fourth having already stopped him, coupled with the dark chakra of the Kyuubi, could be enough to scare him. It's believed that Orochimaru tried to summon the fourth, Kabuto being Orochimaru's apprentice would know where the DNA came from, would know about summoning the fourth hokage. Then what's the secret Kabuto refers to? Well, he's saying he knows who was behind the attack on Konoha and he knows the fourth hokage stopped him.

Rahan · 2010-09-19, 05:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by james0246

^Didn't Danzou actually have Hashirama's arm and not just some genetic material?

Actually, he had Shodai's FACE in the ARM.
This manga has become so dumb you better overlook the details if you want to keep enjoying it anyway ...

Now that I think about it, will Naruto's RS mode power up Madara as it powered up Yamato's wood ?

Ero-Senn1n · 2010-09-19, 05:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sabaku Kyu

You know I wonder if Madara having Hashirama's power actually means he has his kekkai genkai. Could he use mokuton like Danzou and control all the bijuu? Or does it only mean he has it in the more general sense that he got Senju powers from Hashirama but not his kekkai genkai abilities.

For some unknown reason Madara's power level is very limited, that limits all of his jutsu. But when that limit will be removed we will finally see the power of the final villain, which i guess will make him an evil sage. When that happens he will be able to create reality from his imagination, and any powers such as Hashirama's mokuton or whatever else will be nothing compared to his powers. I think the only thing standing in his way will be Naruto's and Sasuke's combined power. A grand scale reality alteration battle would be great, i can imagine such a battle destroying entire landscapes and creating others (mountains, rivers, forests, huge summon animals (the summons that exist now were probably created by the sage of 6 paths, based on real animals and adding the sage's imagination), etc...), mind controlling entire ninja armies (just as eternal tsukiyomi would everybody),
predicting the future by creating it and beating the other's prediction by forcing your own creation.

Frenchie · 2010-09-19, 09:17

Wasn't Danzou's Izanagi limited in time as well as scope? It seemed he only used it for self-preservation when, from what Madara is telling us, it could be used to shape anything out of nothing. Ie, a world, a beast, a weapon..

**Hunter** · 2010-09-19, 09:51

That's the point, there is a discrepancy between his explanation and his actual use of Izanagi which may be explained later due to his weakened current self.
On the other hand it explains the real scope of his endgame, with the power to transform illusion into reality and vice versa Madara could effectively become a god if he had everybody into a Genjutsu because with the power of the 10 tails to back this ability he could make his illusion reality world-wide.

Souten no Seigyoku · 2010-09-19, 12:34

MUST READ

The GIFT Itachi gave Naruto... is probably the same as Madara has! Naruto has both 'paths,' the Senju and the other one!

Bari_Phillis · 2010-09-19, 17:49

-_- .....

Although there is a discrepancy, I think that the two techniques are the same. As far as we have seen, there is nothing different, just that Danzo did not know the full extent of the technique, or he was not able to sufficiently use it because of his trouble incorporating the 1st's cells into him; for some reason or other, Danzo was not able to use it fully. From Madara's description, it CAN be used to create, but it does not necessarily mean it has to be; Madara himself only used it to warp reality..

Poetic Justice · 2010-09-19, 18:58

Everything about izanagi, sharingans, senju, uchihas and multiple bodies has become so convoluted i just can't keep up anymore. *sigh*

Alchemist007 · 2010-09-19, 21:53

Eh, not really. But maybe if you marathoned it all at once.

epyon96 · 2010-09-19, 23:48

These last few chapters suggests that Madara was a terrible ladies man. Wouldn't the goal of an ultimate container be far easier to achieve if Madara just hooked up with a Uzimaki chick and mated and had an offspring.

Since Madara is clearly not opposed to using family members as a means to achieve goals, why not just body switch using Orochimaru's body switch jutsu.

He would achieve the body what he is trying to achieve now with far more ease.

**james0246** · 2010-09-19, 23:55

^

Quote:

He would achieve the body what he is trying to achieve now with far more ease.

Maybe that is what he was planning to do with Nagato, until the stupid kid went and wrecked his body.

Poetic Justice · 2010-09-20, 00:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alchemist007

Eh, not really. But maybe if you marathoned it all at once.

Nah i've been reading the manga for some years now, It's just now that Kishi has just convoluted the story with so many different jutsu elements which make little sense to me. The whole thing with switching bodies, absorbing them. The dbzness of it all just makes it worse. It's just ridiculous quite frankly.

Alchemist007 · 2010-09-20, 00:50

DBZness would make it even simpler

I could try explaining whatever you're confused about.

Frenchie · 2010-09-20, 03:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hunter

On the other hand it explains the real scope of his endgame, with the power to transform illusion into reality and vice versa Madara could effectively become a god if he had everybody into a Genjutsu because with the power of the 10 tails to back this ability he could make his illusion reality world-wide.

I do hope it doesn't mean that Madara can be redeemed. We really need this bad guy to stay bad.

Also, it's been a while since my last doodle.

Spoiler:

Haak · 2010-09-20, 03:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by El_Frenchie

I do hope it doesn't mean that Madara can be redeemed. We really need this bad guy to stay bad.

It would be kinda hypocritical on Naruto's part if he decides Sasuke can be redeemed but Madara can't.

Quote:

Also, it's been a while since my last doodle.

Spoiler:

Lol. That looks as if it should belong in the Ridiculous Image Thread. XD

Frenchie · 2010-09-20, 03:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Haak

Lol. That looks as if it should belong in the Ridiculous Image Thread. XD

So mean, Haak, I thought she was awesome in that panel, did I screw up the rainbow?

Mr. Johnny 5 · 2010-09-20, 03:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by El_Frenchie

So mean, Haak, I thought she was awesome in that panel, did I screw up the rainbow?

There is nothing wrong with your art. Besides everyone with common sense would give you a compliment on that but come on... the greatest terror is in front of you and she expects that Madara would stare at her rainbow?

That had to be the most ridiculous move ever.

[Konan - The mind]

Ughhh, i am dying...
I can't let it end this way...
Arghhhh take this....
~~~ Creates a rainbow ~~~
Ughhh, noo.. my neck! I can't breath
Huh?? He didn't flinch...
Ughhh, it's getting dark...

Can't believe i'll die as a virgin

~~~ Loses conscious ~~~

Nobodyman9 · 2010-09-20, 04:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Haak

Lol. That looks as if it should belong in the Ridiculous Image Thread. XD

For once I have to agree with you Haak.

@Johnny5: Actually, I don't care if you're staring down Madara, Naruto, a fluffy kitten, or the Queen of France. Konan's pose (accompanied with the rainbow) was absolutely ridiculous.

Oh, and nice coloring Frenchie.

Ashaman · 2010-09-20, 06:26

@Jonny 5 - Nah, she was preparing a jutsu, not making a rainbow.

Her pose does look a bit funny though.

Wargumm1i · 2010-09-20, 07:58

I think she was planning to destroy Nagato´s and the other one bodys so Madara would not get his hands on them but failed.

2010-09-19, 03:54	Link #261
Cael Lurker Mode Join Date: Dec 2007	The difference between Danzou's and Madara's Izanagi seems unclear. Madara casts Izanagi with his left eye, closing it permanently. Danzou casts it with 10 different Sharingans on his arm. And he requires Shodai's power to control all 10 sharingans. But Madara states Danzou's jutsu is 'incomplete' referring to his inability to control Hashirama's power. Hmm, how does his lack of control over Shodai's power affect his jutsu? Well his chakras drop every time a sharingan closes, so this may be the point. Not enough control of Hashirama's power puts a strain on his chakra, causing them to plummet. After all, he did have both Uchiha and Senju Power, which Madara states are the requirements to use this technique. But he also states this is an Uchiha technique. But how are Uchiha able to use Izanagi without the balance of Senju Power? There must be a difference. This jutsu is closley tied to the sharingan, this much we know. But because it originates from the Rikudo, sharingan users don't have a complete jutsu. It says the Sage used this jutsu to 'create.' Uchiha it seems, can use Izanagi as a genjutsu, to make death an illusion by casting it on themselves. I believe this is the extent of Danzou's power, the same as the Uchiha. The ability to create, born from both Uchiha and Senju power, the Rikudo's power, is what makes it complete. Since Danzou can not control Shodai's power he can not use Izanagi to create. He can only use it the same way the Uchiha can use it, to make death an illusion for a brief moment. He just uses Shodai's cells to control 10 sharingans which in turn extend the length of the jutsu. Madara claims to have control of Hashirama's power. So if he had this power since his fight at VotE, why wasn't he able to use or why didn't he use Izanagi against the Fourth? I wonder if he never gained Hashirama's power until after Danzou was defeated. If Danzou has the Shodai's face on his shoulder, then Hashirama must have returned from his fight against Madara. So even though Madara claims he fought to gain access to his abilities, doesn't mean he got those abilities then and there. So it could be that Madara was without the power of the Senju until after he had brought Danzou's body back to his lab with his collection of sharingans. Madara also wonders to himself, after watching Danzou, that "it can't be easy to control Hashirama's powers..." If he had Hashirama's powers at that time, he wouldn't be wondering, he would know. Yet he claims to be the second Rikudo and Nagato the third. Even though he has Sharingan, not Rinnegan. And we have not seen him with rinnegan or evolved mangekyou sharingan since his battle at the VotE. Is he really the second Rikudo or does he consider himself the second because he is older and created a Rikudo? I don't think Madara is the type of person to relinquish a EMS or Rinnegan to a child. A child would know if his eyes were replaced. What we don't see is Nagato's Mother's face(actually we do, but just once). She is kept in the shadow. It's more likely that Nagato's mother is an Uzumaki. If Madara did not physically give Nagato new eyes, then the only other way is for him to be Nagato's true father. But wouldn't that also make Nagato an Uchiha? Is Nagato the result of an Uchiha father and Uzumaki mother? I've noticed that he has Madara's trade mark 'bag under the eye.' Whatever the circumstance, the man Nagato refers to as his parent, must be his adopted father, he just doesn't know it. He clearly has his mothers hair. Either Madara is lying and he never had the Rinnegan or was considered a Rikudo, or he gained the Rinnegan/Rikudo Status briefly, and then lost it. As in, while fighting Hashirama, something happened, probably when he had control of the Kyuubi, only he lost it when the Kyuubi was wrestled from him and he was defeated. Because as we know, Naruto has shown signs of becoming the next Rikudo by gaining control of the Kyuubi. It's also becoming more of a possibility that Zetsu has played a big role in Madara's survival. Madara has now lost his right arm twice and received damage to his left arm via the Fourth Hokage. Each time, a white goo resembling Zetsu's white half, is shown in place of blood. And now the left side of Madara's face is exposed but we see only black. Either because we are not meant to see it or because it is the black half of Zetsu's left face. If Zetsu helped Madara survive his fight with Hashirama, after having the Kyuubi taken from him, and the Kyuubi's power was the source for him to briefly become Rikudo, and the Third Rikudo (Nagato) is really Madara's son, then the only question that remains is... Who's in the Box? If it can't be Madara, then it must be the Fourth. The fourth having already stopped him, coupled with the dark chakra of the Kyuubi, could be enough to scare him. It's believed that Orochimaru tried to summon the fourth, Kabuto being Orochimaru's apprentice would know where the DNA came from, would know about summoning the fourth hokage. Then what's the secret Kabuto refers to? Well, he's saying he knows who was behind the attack on Konoha and he knows the fourth hokage stopped him. Last edited by Cael; 2010-09-19 at 04:35.

2010-09-19, 09:17	Link #264
Frenchie Shougi Génération Graphic Designer Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Sydney, Australia Age: 26	Wasn't Danzou's Izanagi limited in time as well as scope? It seemed he only used it for self-preservation when, from what Madara is telling us, it could be used to shape anything out of nothing. Ie, a world, a beast, a weapon.. __________________ Wikileaks - Animesuki, what you would do, might do, or did to make your voice heard.

2010-09-19, 12:34	Link #266
Souten no Seigyoku The Anti-Moron Join Date: Jan 2006	MUST READ The GIFT Itachi gave Naruto... is probably the same as Madara has! Naruto has both 'paths,' the Senju and the other one! __________________ Join The Naruto Online Multiplayer Game Naruto-Arena.com omai wa yowai....naze yowai ka? tarinai kara da nikushimiga

2010-09-19, 17:49	Link #267
Bari_Phillis It's a.... BEAM! Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Somewhere	-_- ..... Although there is a discrepancy, I think that the two techniques are the same. As far as we have seen, there is nothing different, just that Danzo did not know the full extent of the technique, or he was not able to sufficiently use it because of his trouble incorporating the 1st's cells into him; for some reason or other, Danzo was not able to use it fully. From Madara's description, it CAN be used to create, but it does not necessarily mean it has to be; Madara himself only used it to warp reality.. __________________

2010-09-19, 18:58	Link #268
Poetic Justice 100Shots100Hits LuluLaLu Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Inside your heart... Age: 24	Everything about izanagi, sharingans, senju, uchihas and multiple bodies has become so convoluted i just can't keep up anymore. sigh __________________

2010-09-19, 09:51	Link #265
Hunter Bubbly and super fun Moderator Join Date: May 2003 Location: Incognito	That's the point, there is a discrepancy between his explanation and his actual use of Izanagi which may be explained later due to his weakened current self. On the other hand it explains the real scope of his endgame, with the power to transform illusion into reality and vice versa Madara could effectively become a god if he had everybody into a Genjutsu because with the power of the 10 tails to back this ability he could make his illusion reality world-wide.

2010-09-19, 21:53	Link #269
Alchemist007 自分のチームにいるよ。 Author Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: USA Age: 24	Eh, not really. But maybe if you marathoned it all at once. __________________ My Fanfiction and Deviantart

2010-09-19, 23:48	Link #270
epyon96 Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2004	These last few chapters suggests that Madara was a terrible ladies man. Wouldn't the goal of an ultimate container be far easier to achieve if Madara just hooked up with a Uzimaki chick and mated and had an offspring. Since Madara is clearly not opposed to using family members as a means to achieve goals, why not just body switch using Orochimaru's body switch jutsu. He would achieve the body what he is trying to achieve now with far more ease. __________________ "Draw the line that defines being human through reason, not emotion," Envy Epyon

2010-09-20, 00:50	Link #273
Alchemist007 自分のチームにいるよ。 Author Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: USA Age: 24	DBZness would make it even simpler I could try explaining whatever you're confused about. __________________ My Fanfiction and Deviantart

2010-09-20, 06:26	Link #279
Ashaman Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2009 Age: 23	@Jonny 5 - Nah, she was preparing a jutsu, not making a rainbow. Her pose does look a bit funny though. __________________

2010-09-20, 07:58	Link #280
Wargumm1i Jinchuuriki Join Date: Oct 2008	I think she was planning to destroy Nagato´s and the other one bodys so Madara would not get his hands on them but failed. __________________