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Old 2010-03-20, 23:25   Link #621
Swampstorm
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FH:
Alto may have his orders to shoot down Ozma, but he wasn't necessarily required to be successful at doing that. If Alto wanted to circumvent that order without openly rebelling, it wouldn't be hard for him to do so.

The crew of Macross Quarter were "officially" traitors even in the final battle, but Alto was perfectly willing to fight alongside them in episode twenty-five. What changed was that his goal was now to protect Frontier, rather than to blindly follow Leon's orders.

I'm not sure I understand what you mean by the phrase "Alto failed to protect Ranka", or what you're referring to by the "different path" that Ozma chose. If you can elaborate, that would be helpful.
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Old 2010-03-21, 18:42   Link #622
Father Hentai
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Swampstorm View Post
FH:
Alto may have his orders to shoot down Ozma, but he wasn't necessarily required to be successful at doing that. If Alto wanted to circumvent that order without openly rebelling, it wouldn't be hard for him to do so.

The crew of Macross Quarter were "officially" traitors even in the final battle, but Alto was perfectly willing to fight alongside them in episode twenty-five. What changed was that his goal was now to protect Frontier, rather than to blindly follow Leon's orders.

Alto - or better let's say 4th company - had the order to stop the Macross Quarter from folding. His company had for sure the order to stop them if necessary with weapon force. And the N.U.N.S. didn't use dummy missiles to counter... I didn't say that they will/should kill themselves if you mean that. The dogfight between just ended 1:0 for Ozma.

By the way. Just from a tactical perspective of the situation: A cruiser (only at 70% personnel strenght) with a capacity of 80+ VF units and the N.U.N.S is just sending a single company (I suppose that means up to 15 VFs) is just a big lol.

In the final episode there was also no reason to fight against each other since the coup d'tat was successfully revealed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Swampstorm View Post
FH:
I'm not sure I understand what you mean by the phrase "Alto failed to protect Ranka", or what you're referring to by the "different path" that Ozma chose. If you can elaborate, that would be helpful.
Think back again what happened after it came out, that Ranka has the potential to communicate as a weapon. By presidential decree she was more used as a weapon. First only as an experiment but if you are smart the answer was that she was really intend to be used as a weapon. Ozma was against this decision and also was Alto at the beginning but started to changed (Episode 18). The protector was more the one who was protected. Now let's go back to the dogfight between Ozma and Alto and analyze their chitchat:

Alto: Give me a straight answer!
Ozma: I'm not a real fan of taking lives for a president I don't like! (he means Leon, not President Glass). This is the best way to protect the women I love.
Alto: Women?

If you look to Altos reaction clearly, this was a slap and a hidden note that he was not able to protect Ranka. > That's why I said he failed to protect her.
The other stuff is because Ozma could have followed Ranka and Brera but his way was to uncover the assassination of Howard Glass.

This will be my last sentences about this. We moved too much away from the main topic. And I don't have a point to justify that I'm talking about romance in MF.

I can't even say that the dogfight between alto and ozma was somehow romantic...
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Old 2010-03-21, 19:23   Link #623
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FH:
I'd imagine that Alto's VF isn't exclusively outfitted with missiles. If he wanted to, he could give the impression that he was doing his job in pursuing Ozma without seriously trying to shoot him down.

What I'm getting at here is that Alto's orders weren't compelling him to attack Ozma against his will. He genuinely wanted to shoot Ozma down at the time.

Incidently, everyone became buddy-buddy with the crew of the Macross Quarter even before they'd even had a chance to reveal the details of the coup. Again, this isn't simply a matter of "following orders" - if someone saves your hide, the tendancy is to want to return the favour.

I was under the impression that Alto's reaction to Ozma's statement was more an expression of annoyance at Ozma's flippant attitude to a serious question. That's why his follow-up remark is "Is that how an adult should talk?" Context is important.

I'm still not clear in what way you think that Alto failed to protect Ranka, though. He feels frustrated by her decision to leave, but I don't recall seeing anything that indicates that her departure makes him feel inadequate as a pilot.

The points that we're discussing are very relevant to a theory that DeX presented earlier. I'm addressing your points in the off chance that he sees something of use, if and when he decides to follow up.
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Old 2010-09-23, 21:49   Link #624
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Originally Posted by magnuskn View Post
Her size is "just right", she is definitely not a virgin anymore after episode 22 and, no, she wasn't raped as a little girl, as far as we know. Although it was a near thing, if we go by the manga.

Her birthday is the 23rd of November.
Actually, this is still speculation. Yes, the light novels were checked over by Kawamori but it wasn't written by him. Also, it doesn't make it a fact for the TV series, otherwise we wouldn't have had the ending we got in the TV series.

Besides, we all know what Kawamori thinks of continuities Especially considering all the different material that include the mangas, light novels and the movies as well.
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Old 2010-09-23, 22:11   Link #625
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Originally Posted by DeX-kun View Post
...the light novels were checked over by Kawamori...
According to whom?
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Old 2010-09-23, 22:17   Link #626
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According to whom?
Sorry, no source but that's what I heard I'm getting more Shaloom vibes here considering I remember reading it somewhere, I'm just assuming it's true
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Old 2010-09-23, 22:42   Link #627
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Originally Posted by DeX-kun View Post
Sorry, no source but that's what I heard I'm getting more Shaloom vibes here considering I remember reading it somewhere, I'm just assuming it's true
You know what they say about why you should never assume...

Seriously though, the only "proof" I've seen that he checked the novels is just some wishful-thinking-out-loud done here by some fans.

It's not really a Shaloom...more like a giant game of "telephone."
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Old 2010-09-23, 23:36   Link #628
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Originally Posted by Yot-chan View Post
You know what they say about why you should never assume...

Seriously though, the only "proof" I've seen that he checked the novels is just some wishful-thinking-out-loud done here by some fans.

It's not really a Shaloom...more like a giant game of "telephone."
Ah I see

I'm not sure myself, I would hope someone on these boards has a reliable source somewhere. I don't care too much for it myself considering I can't even read the Light Novels

But I would like some confirmation of that myself because it's been used as reference many times already.
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Old 2010-09-24, 03:01   Link #629
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One would think that there should be enough fan interest in Japan so that an interviewer or someone at a convention would ask such a question, but apparently that doesn't happen in Japanese culture or nobody bothers to inform us foreigners. ^^

As for the canonicity of that night in episode 23... we had this discussion before some days ago. It's not 100%, but only 99,9%. There is enough circumstancial evidence from inside and outside the show to approximate us to near certainty.

And I don't see how it having happened would change the end of the series, Dex. ^^
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Old 2010-09-24, 11:59   Link #630
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Originally Posted by magnuskn View Post
One would think that there should be enough fan interest in Japan so that an interviewer or someone at a convention would ask such a question, but apparently that doesn't happen in Japanese culture or nobody bothers to inform us foreigners. ^^

As for the canonicity of that night in episode 23... we had this discussion before some days ago. It's not 100%, but only 99,9%. There is enough circumstancial evidence from inside and outside the show to approximate us to near certainty.

And I don't see how it having happened would change the end of the series, Dex. ^^


So you say Magnus Well we have our differing opinions on the matter but I would just like to say this at the very least. The only time this topic was discussed between the staff was as a joke because of the way the scene played out and since then it has only been mentioned in a light novel written by someone else.

I believe it would have changed the ending in a pretty significant manner if we look at the TV series. Alto's decision would have been all that much easier and Sheryl wouldn't have been doubting his feelings throughout the final 2 episodes.
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Old 2010-09-24, 12:30   Link #631
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Originally Posted by DeX-kun View Post


So you say Magnus Well we have our differing opinions on the matter but I would just like to say this at the very least. The only time this topic was discussed between the staff was as a joke because of the way the scene played out and since then it has only been mentioned in a light novel written by someone else.
AND we got all the signs of it in the episode itself. AND while we got siginificant evidence for it, nobody on the production staff ever said anything that it hasn't happened. I call that pretty much convincing evidence for the fact.

Also, I would really like for someone to show me how the staff joking about it means that it didn't happen.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DeX-kun View Post
I believe it would have changed the ending in a pretty significant manner if we look at the TV series. Alto's decision would have been all that much easier and Sheryl wouldn't have been doubting his feelings throughout the final 2 episodes.
Alto didn't really decide on-screen, at least not in a 100% clear manner. I personally think the meeting in Sheryl's make-up room was his clumsy confession. And that I am 100% sure that Sheryl and Alto ended up together after the credits is because of how the dynamics were playing out during the series and especially during the last six episodes.

As for Sheryl, she thought Alto was staying with her out of pity, that much was made clear in the series itself. Doesn't mean he did, but it's how she perceived it, due to a combination of her being crushed emotionally due to her illness and her long-time confidant wanting her dead and some rather unfortunate timing on that rooftop.
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Old 2010-09-24, 12:43   Link #632
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Originally Posted by magnuskn View Post
AND we got all the signs of it in the episode itself. AND while we got siginificant evidence for it, nobody on the production staff ever said anything that it hasn't happened. I call that pretty much convincing evidence for the fact.

Also, I would really like for someone to show me how the staff joking about it means that it didn't happen.

Alto didn't really decide on-screen, at least not in a 100% clear manner. I personally think the meeting in Sheryl's make-up room was his clumsy confession. And that I am 100% sure that Sheryl and Alto ended up together after the credits is because of how the dynamics were playing out during the series and especially during the last six episodes.

As for Sheryl, she thought Alto was staying with her out of pity, that much was made clear in the series itself. Doesn't mean he did, but it's how she perceived it, due to a combination of her being crushed emotionally due to her illness and her long-time confidant wanting her dead and some rather unfortunate timing on that rooftop.
And this is where we can agree to disagree on this particular topic. Don't feel like reviving the horse, we should let it rest in peace
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Old 2010-09-24, 13:24   Link #633
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I don't understand why people are so ready to object it. It shows them kissing.. leaning over.. and the shot fades out.

WHAT ELSE WOULD YOU DO?

Go straight to sleep?
This sort of thing is done all the time in the entertainment industry.

Anyway, It doesn't change much of anything whether or not it happened, but I don't understand why most people are so against it.
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Old 2010-09-24, 14:16   Link #634
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Originally Posted by DeX-kun View Post
And this is where we can agree to disagree on this particular topic. Don't feel like reviving the horse, we should let it rest in peace
Yeah, I think the leather coat I made of it is well worn out by now.

Marvelous video, btw.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Foreshadow View Post
I don't understand why people are so ready to object it. It shows them kissing.. leaning over.. and the shot fades out.

WHAT ELSE WOULD YOU DO?

Go straight to sleep?
This sort of thing is done all the time in the entertainment industry.

Anyway, It doesn't change much of anything whether or not it happened, but I don't understand why most people are so against it.
Eh, it's just Yot-Chan who for some reason has chosen to butt in every time to point out how it isn't absolutely, completely official. Most people here are quite fine with it.
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Old 2010-09-24, 14:20   Link #635
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Originally Posted by magnuskn View Post
Eh, it's just Yot-Chan who for some reason has chosen to butt in every time to point out how it isn't absolutely, completely official. Most people here are quite fine with it.
I love it when they showed that episode back in the day. Once the ordeal was over, some die-hards insisted they simply 'butted heads'.

Really?

Learn to take a hint or rather, get off the delusion boat!

They FUCKED, and if that was not directly shown on TV, there were many reasons not to (coughGUNDAMSEEDcough)!

- Tak
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Last edited by Tak; 2010-09-24 at 14:30.
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Old 2010-09-24, 14:37   Link #636
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Originally Posted by Tak View Post
I love it when they showed that episode back in the day. Once the ordeal was over, some die-hards insisted they simply 'butted heads'.

Really?

Delusion much?

They FUCKED, have a nice day.

- Tak
Hey, we all ( almost all... one guy named Lolipopo already said it on the first day ) were like "Did they? Naaaah..." for the first two days, until someone posted a pic of Alto having his jacket off in the next scene and it developed from there. Hell, I myself even said at the time that I didn't think they had sex. First time analysis... not always right.

*edit* Correction, you already said so the next day. ^^ I guess I missed most of it, since I wasn't on IRC. <sigh>
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Old 2010-09-24, 14:39   Link #637
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Originally Posted by magnuskn View Post
Hey, we all ( almost all... one guy named Lolipopo already said it on the first day ) were like "Did they? Naaaah..." for the first two days, until someone posted a pic of Alto having his jacket off in the next scene and it developed from there. Hell, I myself even said at the time that I didn't think they had sex. First time analysis... not always right.

*edit* Correction, you already said so the next day. ^^ I guess I missed most of it, since I wasn't on IRC. <sigh>
I did not even bother waiting two days (or even the next day for that matter). My bloody reaction was almost realtime. As soon as that episode was over, IRC echoed my approval!

- Tak
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Old 2010-09-24, 14:54   Link #638
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Man, I guess I missed some great times not being on there. Well, not being on most of the time. <sigh>

Oh, well. I hope we get some nice discussion going again with the movie release. And I shudder to think how much panicking and speculation we will get with the first spoilers from the second movie.
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Old 2010-09-24, 15:42   Link #639
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Originally Posted by Foreshadow View Post
I don't understand why people are so ready to object it. It shows them kissing.. leaning over.. and the shot fades out.

WHAT ELSE WOULD YOU DO?

Go straight to sleep?
This sort of thing is done all the time in the entertainment industry.

Anyway, It doesn't change much of anything whether or not it happened, but I don't understand why most people are so against it.
Because I really feel weird that Sheryl is willing to infect her loved one..
And then the scene that Sheryl was so afraid to let Alto touch her blood reaffirms my belief that Sheryl doesn't want Alto to get the disease...

Yes, they did kiss in episode 22 (and episode 24), but having sex is another issue...
Frankly, I don't even what is exactly the V-type-virus

Does having sex affect the story? Based on the ending that we have..No, not at all

But I just feel weird that Sheryl is willing put her loved one in danger, that's all
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Old 2010-09-24, 16:01   Link #640
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Originally Posted by justavisitor View Post
Because I really feel weird that Sheryl is willing to infect her loved one..
And then the scene that Sheryl was so afraid to let Alto touch her blood reaffirms my belief that Sheryl doesn't want Alto to get the disease...

Yes, they did kiss in episode 22 (and episode 24), but having sex is another issue...
Frankly, I don't even what is exactly the V-type-virus

Does having sex affect the story? Based on the ending that we have..No, not at all

But I just feel weird that Sheryl is willing put her loved one in danger, that's all
Did I mention you are bad at being subtle.

It wasn't until episode 23 did she realized the full details of her disease. All Grace told her was that she was slowly dying, and she refrained from providing other related information. Nobody knew it was infectious then.

And when you get a cut, why would you be so eager to show the other person your bloody wounds? Did you ever wonder if Sheryl simply did not want to show Alto her weakside?

- Tak
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