AnimeSuki Forums

Register Forum Rules FAQ Members List Social Groups Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   AnimeSuki Forum > Anime Discussion > Older Series > Retired > Macross

Notices

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old 2010-09-24, 23:53   Link #681
Foreshadow
Nyaa~
 
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Age: 26
Quote:
Originally Posted by justavisitor View Post
So all of a sudden it's judgement time, and I got the judgment that I lost the case ??
If you believe otherwise, back up your arguments with something credible instead of pointing the finger at somebody else. your unwillingness to even try to back up your claims or counter argue baffles me. If you think I'm wrong then please try to prove it so.
Quote:
Originally Posted by justavisitor View Post
I am just listing out the reason why they didn't have it..from that tiny little wound scene, from the "better to be safe than sorry" approach generally taken from a normal person (unless you can prove that every teenager in the planet will take the unsafe approach then I have nothing to say)
If every teenager took the safe route, Teen pregnancy numbers would be down, the amount of STI's would be low, and various other things pertaining to death, alcohol, and drugs would not be a problem. Saying that every teenager does those things however is ridiculous, but the majority do. There's always outliers to every situation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by justavisitor View Post
About the novel, again I don't know that novel, I never read it, but I know in some animes, animes and novel (or other medias) can be quite different (Eg. 00 movie and it's manga about the movie)..plus, I don't think you can accuse a person if a person only takes the TV series as a canon. Majority of ppl have only watched the series after all
I never mentioned anything about the novels. All these things I have been talking about have been strictly from the TV series. The novel only reinforces the notion that they had sex.
Quote:
Originally Posted by justavisitor View Post
I am not like prohibiting you from believing that they had sex..but I am just saying it's not likely in my opinion and I list out why I made that assumption

That's all
It's fine that you have your own opinion. Wisteria disagreed by proposing something backed with logic. Now it's up to you to counter those, Otherwise it leaves your arguments full of holes and baseless.

Last edited by Foreshadow; 2010-09-25 at 00:07.
Foreshadow is offline  
Old 2010-09-25, 00:03   Link #682
karice67
さっく♥ゆうきゃん♥ほそやん
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: in the land down under ^^
Quote:
Originally Posted by raile View Post
*GASP* So the "did they or not" topic is back again.
And it covered 2 pages of forums posts in less than 12 hours I think I'll just stay out of it, given that I've forgotten all the details you're all debating anyway, but on the novelisation...

Quote:
Originally Posted by DeX-kun View Post
the light novels were checked over by Kawamori
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yot-chan View Post
According to whom?
According to the author's note by novel writer Kodachi Ukyou at the end of volume 4 of the light novel series.
(Why I am reading an atogaki before I've read the actual novels, I don't know...)
Spoiler for summary, for those who want to know:


Quote:
Originally Posted by raile View Post
Considering it's such a hot touchy subject in the series, it had me thinking why they'd go have it in the light novels if it weren't so. I mean this kind of thing would only add to the ruckus.
Maybe that was the whole point? Kawamori-sensei certainly seemed to enjoy the consternation caused when he answered related questions on the radio show...
__________________



You must free yourself from that illusion,
from the illusion that a story must have a beginning and an end.



"No, you are not entitled to your opinion... You are only entitled to what you can argue for.
- Patrick Stokes



Last edited by karice67; 2010-09-25 at 20:06.
karice67 is offline  
Old 2010-09-25, 00:19   Link #683
DeX-kun
Alto x Ranka :)
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: New York City
Quote:
Originally Posted by wisteria233 View Post
Don't start playing victim again, you said something incredibly stupid and tried to shift the blame.
Can we keep this discussion on a civilized level please. justavisitor hasn't said anything insulting or disrespectful from what I've read so let's just keep this civilized.

As for the topic at hand, it's just like the ending of the TV series. Alto never actually made a decision about his feelings towards Sheryl and Ranka respectively. Now we can make assumptions about who he "loved more" so-to-speak but neither side can claim it with absolute certainty.

Now the scene in the TV series is as controversial as it gets considering we don't even see them kiss although one can assume that's exactly what he did if we take Alto's actions prior to the camera moving away into account. But I wouldn't take it as far as saying that they had sex precisely because of the predicament Sheryl was in. She's sick and dying. She just woke up from feinting for god knows how long. If I were Alto, sleeping with her would be the last thing on my mind. I'd be more worried about taking care of her and staying by her side until the end which is exactly what he wanted to do for her sake.

Quote:
Originally Posted by karice67 View Post
And it covered 2 pages of forums posts in less than 12 hours I think I'll just stay out of it, given that I've forgotten all the details you're all debating anyway, but on the novelisation...

According to the author's note by Kodachi Ukyou at the end of volume 4 of the light novel series.
(Why I am reading an atogaki before I've read the actual novels, I don't know...)
Spoiler for summary, for those who want to know:
Thank you for clearing that up I wish I were able to read Japanese otherwise I would have read the novels a while back. I knew I saw someone say it was checked over by Kawamori and I think it was you a while back.
__________________

"Aishiteru ~ I Love You"
DeX-kun is offline  
Old 2010-09-25, 00:22   Link #684
wisteria233
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: New York, NY
Quote:
Originally Posted by DeX-kun View Post
Can we keep this discussion on a civilized level please. justavisitor hasn't said anything insulting or disrespectful from what I've read so let's just keep this civilized.

As for the topic at hand, it's just like the ending of the TV series. Alto never actually made a decision about his feelings towards Sheryl and Ranka respectively. Now we can make assumptions about who he "loved more" so-to-speak but neither side can claim it with absolute certainty.

Now the scene in the TV series is as controversial as it gets considering we don't even see them kiss although one can assume that's exactly what he did if we take Alto's actions prior to the camera moving away into account. But I wouldn't take it as far as saying that they had sex precisely because of the predicament Sheryl was in. She's sick and dying. She just woke up from feinting for god knows how long. If I were Alto, sleeping with her would be the last thing on my mind. I'd be more worried about taking care of her and staying by her side until the end which is exactly what he wanted to do for her sake.
I was referring to what he posted regarding STDs that could be treated, which was inappropriate no matter which way you look at it.

Again timing, not everyone can think logically when they are in an emotional situation. And if they were just kissing then why bother to pan up to the sky?
wisteria233 is offline  
Old 2010-09-25, 00:36   Link #685
DeX-kun
Alto x Ranka :)
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: New York City
Quote:
Originally Posted by wisteria233 View Post
I was referring to what he posted regarding STDs that could be treated, which was inappropriate no matter which way you look at it.

Again timing, not everyone can think logically when they are in an emotional situation. And if they were just kissing then why bother to pan up to the sky?
Whether it was inappropriate or misinformed, I'm sure it doesn't merit using the word "stupid," there are many other words that could have been used which is why I'm hoping we can keep this on a respectful level. I understand very well how these discussions can get and sometimes it is frustrating but we're all good people here

I'm a male and putting myself in Alto's position while taking his personality into account, I just don't see him as a someone that would sleep with someone sick and dying. Sheryl also just moments before woke up from feinting. That really isn't the time for something like that.

The panning is used to describe how feelings can travel across time and space. I believe Kawamori mentioned it in an episode comment. Ranka who can feel fold waves was probably connected to Sheryl somehow and could probably feel what she was feeling. Happiness yet the feeling of an aching heart.
__________________

"Aishiteru ~ I Love You"
DeX-kun is offline  
Old 2010-09-25, 00:41   Link #686
Mei19
LOL'ing at t3h old bags
 
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Age: 25
Debate againnnn!!!

I think the truth is, Alto and Sheryl did do it. Based on the TV series, like Foreshadow had mentioned, the light novel has nothing to do with this.

Evidences:
1. Sheryl wanted Alto to give her the strength to move on. (What strength? Yeah, must be that.)
2. Alto complied after seeing Sheryl's state. He kissed her! (Of course he had to do that next. All the way.)
3. Alto's jacket was on his shoulders after that scene, evidence that he took it off.
4. Alto felt obligated to stay in Frontier, said he'll come back to Sheryl once he kills Ranka and Sheryl had to say "let's end this lovers game". Lovers game! What do lovers do? Yeah, that.

It's plain as day guys. Alto and Sheryl had sex in ep 22, there can't be anything else. Why would there be? It's hard to argue against explicit facts.

V-type infection is an imaginary disease, speculating what it is and what it's not is just a waste of time. If Kawamori says it's a virus that can turn people into gods, then it IS a virus that can turn people into gods. There are no limits when it comes to FICTION.

It just sucks even if Sheryl and Alto had sex, they still didn't get together fufufu
Mei19 is offline  
Old 2010-09-25, 00:51   Link #687
wisteria233
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: New York, NY
Quote:
Originally Posted by DeX-kun View Post
Whether it was inappropriate or misinformed, I'm sure it doesn't merit using the word "stupid," there are many other words that could have been used which is why I'm hoping we can keep this on a respectful level. I understand very well how these discussions can get and sometimes it is frustrating but we're all good people here

I'm a guy and putting myself in Alto's position while taking his personality into account, I just don't see him as a someone that would sleep with someone sick and dying. Sheryl also just moments before woke up from feinting. That really isn't the time for something like that.

The panning is used to describe how feelings can travel through time and space. I believe Kawamori mentioned it in an episode comment. Ranka who can feel fold waves was probably connected to Sheryl somehow and could probably feel what she was feeling. Happiness yet the feeling of an aching heart.
I never called justavisitor stupid I said that what he posted was stupid, and inappropriate and it was, it makes it worse that he tried to shift the blame to magnuskn, so I'm not gonna apologize for calling it such.

Back on topic:
You can't always use your opinion and views in order to decide how other people will react to a situation.

Whether you want to take it into account or not sex is an very intimate act. And while two people can certainly have sex with no feelings involved (though that is hard to maintain), the opposite can be (and often times is) very true. If sex wasn't so intimate then people wouldn't put such emphasis on it.

Where did you read that? Never read anything about that before? and even then you could say that the reason why Sheryl had a aching heart was because her life was ending and she knew it.

@Mei19 Funny you say that because the only indication we get the love triangle restarting is Ranka's challenging Sheryl, we never get Alto's input in the entire episode - so I could easily say that poor Ranka's in over her head.
wisteria233 is offline  
Old 2010-09-25, 01:05   Link #688
DeX-kun
Alto x Ranka :)
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: New York City
Quote:
Originally Posted by wisteria233 View Post
You can't always use your opinion and views in order to decide how other people will react to a situation.

Whether you want to take it into account or not sex is an very intimate act. And while two people can certainly have sex with no feelings involved (though that is hard to maintain), the opposite can be (and often times is) very true. If sex wasn't so intimate then people wouldn't put such emphasis on it.

Where did you read that? Never read anything about that before? and even then you could say that the reason why Sheryl had a aching heart was because her life was ending and she knew it.
Granted, it is true that it's difficult to determine how I would react in that situation or how anyone else would for that matter but like I said, it's hardly the right time for it. Put it like this, if you just saw a loved one waking up after blacking out because of a fatal illness, would sex be on your mind? Sheryl's health should be of utmost concern and that feeling alone overrides an intimate moment. Aside from that, I'm sure we'll just have to agree to disagree on this topic.

You could say that Sheryl's heart was aching because her life was ending, but then why did she refer to Alto's feelings as "condescending sympathy" the very next episode? I commend Sheryl for this because she values Alto's feelings more than her life, I'm sure we can agree on that. All signs point more towards Sheryl being concerned more with Alto's feelings rather than her current dilemma.
__________________

"Aishiteru ~ I Love You"
DeX-kun is offline  
Old 2010-09-25, 01:16   Link #689
Mei19
LOL'ing at t3h old bags
 
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Age: 25
@Dex-kun
Maybe Sheryl just thinks that Alto's feelings are sympathy in ep 23, but in truth he really is in love with her, she just doesn't know that. Kindness is a sin after all.
Mei19 is offline  
Old 2010-09-25, 01:17   Link #690
karice67
さっく♥ゆうきゃん♥ほそやん
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: in the land down under ^^
Quote:
Originally Posted by DeX-kun View Post
Thank you for clearing that up I wish I were able to read Japanese otherwise I would have read the novels a while back. I knew I saw someone say it was checked over by Kawamori and I think it was you a while back.
You're welcome though I'm pretty dead certain I wasn't the one who said it the first time, since I only dug up the novels today just on the hunch that the atogaki might clarify it.

edit:
Spoiler for nvm then...though I'll just leave this here so that the later comments make sense...:


Can't we all just accept that it actually IS a gray area? (Although I personally lean more to one side myself.)
__________________



You must free yourself from that illusion,
from the illusion that a story must have a beginning and an end.



"No, you are not entitled to your opinion... You are only entitled to what you can argue for.
- Patrick Stokes



Last edited by karice67; 2010-09-25 at 03:24.
karice67 is offline  
Old 2010-09-25, 01:23   Link #691
DeX-kun
Alto x Ranka :)
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: New York City
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mei19 View Post
@Dex-kun
Maybe Sheryl just thinks that Alto's feelings are sympathy in ep 23, but in truth he really is in love with her, she just doesn't know that. Kindness is a sin after all.
Well yes, you and I both know that I believe that as well (except for the part where Alto truly loves her )

Quote:
Originally Posted by karice67 View Post
You're welcome though I'm pretty dead certain I wasn't the one who said it the first time, since I only dug up the novels today just on the hunch that the atogaki might clarify it.


Never mind then I guess it was someone else

Quote:
Originally Posted by karice67 View Post
Can't we all just accept that it actually IS a gray area? (Although I personally lean more to one side myself.)
That's how I've felt from the beginning, it's a gray area although I lean to the other side
__________________

"Aishiteru ~ I Love You"
DeX-kun is offline  
Old 2010-09-25, 01:40   Link #692
wisteria233
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: New York, NY
Quote:
Originally Posted by DeX-kun View Post
Granted, it is true that it's difficult to determine how I would react in that situation or how anyone else would for that matter but like I said, it's hardly the right time for it. Put it like this, if you just saw a loved one waking up after blacking out because of a fatal illness, would sex be on your mind? Sheryl's health should be of utmost concern and that feeling alone overrides an intimate moment. Aside from that, I'm sure we'll just have to agree to disagree on this topic.

You could say that Sheryl's heart was aching because her life was ending, but then why did she refer to Alto's feelings as "condescending sympathy" the very next episode? I commend Sheryl for this because she values Alto's feelings more than her life, I'm sure we can agree on that. All signs point more towards Sheryl being concerned more with Alto's feelings rather than her current dilemma.
Well its a case by case basis and in this case Sheryl wasn't one her death bed, but it is true that her time was limited. Although to answer your question yes there are those that would still have sex with their partner knowing that their partner is dying of illness. The reasons for that are simple like I said before sex is an intimate act, and when one has very little time left with their loved one they're going to savor every moment with moment them and try to live without any regrets. They try to make up for the time that they know they won't have, and yes that sometimes includes having sex.

Well it that was because she misinterpreted the conversation she overheard him have with Klan Klan, and so she believed that she was setting him free, to which he seemed to have a problem with.
wisteria233 is offline  
Old 2010-09-25, 02:06   Link #693
DeX-kun
Alto x Ranka :)
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: New York City
Quote:
Originally Posted by wisteria233 View Post
Well its a case by case basis and in this case Sheryl wasn't one her death bed, but it is true that her time was limited. Although to answer your question yes there are those that would still have sex with their partner knowing that their partner is dying of illness. The reasons for that are simple like I said before sex is an intimate act, and when one has very little time left with their loved one they're going to savor every moment with moment them and try to live without any regrets. They try to make up for the time that they know they won't have, and yes that sometimes includes having sex.
That's a bit of a stretch. I'm not convinced of it because this illness is a debilitating disease which causes fever aside from fatigue. Sheryl's feinting spells are also random which Alto is aware of more than anyone else. I know this is redundant but I really don't see how Alto would sleep with someone with those symptoms.

Again, we'll just have to agree to disagree because I'll just end up repeating myself in different ways

Quote:
Originally Posted by wisteria233 View Post
Well it that was because she misinterpreted the conversation she overheard him have with Klan Klan, and so she believed that she was setting him free, to which he seemed to have a problem with.
Although I disagree with you on this, that's not the point. My point was validating the reason Sheryl's heart was aching. I pointed out the fact that Sheryl doesn't even mention her life but rather Alto's feelings.
__________________

"Aishiteru ~ I Love You"
DeX-kun is offline  
Old 2010-09-25, 02:47   Link #694
karice67
さっく♥ゆうきゃん♥ほそやん
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: in the land down under ^^
Quote:
Originally Posted by DeX-kun View Post
That's how I've felt from the beginning, it's a gray area although I lean to the other side
Though I'd say we're quite happy to disagree, non? (^^) It's not like it's a matter of life and death, after all.
__________________



You must free yourself from that illusion,
from the illusion that a story must have a beginning and an end.



"No, you are not entitled to your opinion... You are only entitled to what you can argue for.
- Patrick Stokes


karice67 is offline  
Old 2010-09-25, 03:22   Link #695
BetoJR
D-d-don't look!!!
*Artist
 
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Fortaleza-CE, Brazil
Age: 37
Did the movie come out on DVD/BD? Darn, this seems like the good (?) old days all over again, complete with victimization and persecution complexes...
__________________
It's always a great time to immerse yourself in Deculture love!
All hail the Empress!!!

BetoJR is offline  
Old 2010-09-25, 03:58   Link #696
magnuskn
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Hamburg, Germany
Age: 39
Quote:
Originally Posted by justavisitor View Post
I've said all I can say in my previous posts lol...

If V-type virus could be that easily treated..hmm just like a cold (take a pill and it wold be fine...someone said it, I didn't make that up)XD...then Sheryl wouldn't be that afraid of letting Alto to touch her tiny little wound..
I think not wanting to infect your partner with a disease, a disease which is killing you at that very moment, is human nature. Even with an immediate cure available. And who is to say that taking that cure wouldn't weaken Alto in a critical moment, he is a fighter pilot after all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by justavisitor View Post
The whole contrast from "willing to have sex" (let's assume) to being freaked out when Alto tries to touch her little wound is simply too big
Passion of the moment. And, once again, we don't know that the disease is transmitted by having sex. It certainly doesn't seem as if the creators of the show wanted to imply that, given all the evidence towards sex.

So, basically, you are using one unfounded assumption to try to deny another much better founded one.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DeX-kun View Post
I'm a male and putting myself in Alto's position while taking his personality into account, I just don't see him as a someone that would sleep with someone sick and dying. Sheryl also just moments before woke up from feinting. That really isn't the time for something like that.
Considering that Sheryl was only having spells of fainting, and otherwise showed very signs of being sick ( after leaving the hospital ), I don' think that he thought he was taking advantage of a dying person. Sheryl demonstrated many times how she was still the vibrant person Alto knew frome earlier.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mei19 View Post
stuff
Wait, Mei on the side of the Sheryl shippers? What has the world come to? Welcome on the light side. Or at least on the pink-blonde one.

@karice : Many thanks for clearing that up! So Kawamori did sign off on the novels. Take that, doubters!

Any chance you want to fan-translate the novels for us poor shlubs without Japanese speaking or reading skills?
__________________

Last edited by magnuskn; 2010-09-25 at 04:12.
magnuskn is offline  
Old 2010-09-25, 09:09   Link #697
wisteria233
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: New York, NY
Quote:
Originally Posted by DeX-kun View Post
That's a bit of a stretch. I'm not convinced of it because this illness is a debilitating disease which causes fever aside from fatigue. Sheryl's feinting spells are also random which Alto is aware of more than anyone else. I know this is redundant but I really don't see how Alto would sleep with someone with those symptoms.

Again, we'll just have to agree to disagree because I'll just end up repeating myself in different ways
like I said its a case by case basis, you cannot say that all couples will not have sex even when they know that their significant other is going to die soon. It would really depend on the severity of the illness and to say otherwise is an extreme over generalization. Just like you can't judge other people using your own opinions you should never say never cause you never know.

The first time Alto would have slept with her would have been when he found out what she was hiding from him, and at that time the only thing he knew was that she was prone to fainting spells, so he wouldn't have time to consider the severity of the disease. So like I said before they may have been caught up in the moment.


Quote:
Although I disagree with you on this, that's not the point. My point was validating the reason Sheryl's heart was aching. I pointed out the fact that Sheryl doesn't even mention her life but rather Alto's feelings.
And I answered the reason why her heart would have been aching, which is supported by the events of the previous episode, and also the situation that she is currently in.
wisteria233 is offline  
Old 2010-09-25, 14:20   Link #698
justavisitor
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Earth
Quote:
Originally Posted by karice67 View Post
Can't we all just accept that it actually IS a gray area? (Although I personally lean more to one side myself.)
I agree with you on this..(I personally lean heavily to the other side )


And thanks very much for your clarification on the novel issue
__________________
Come and join Ranka Lee Fanclub !!! Join our club and you will see
1)Ranka pics 2)Ranka/Alto pic 3)Relatively Sane discussion about Ranka 4)amv for Ranka
To all old and new Sheryl fans:
I am a Ranka fan and I have significant experience in defending various "crimes" committed by Ranka, from her evil plan to terminate human races, to feeding inapporiate food to unknown lifeforms. If you think you find "new" charges aginst Ranka and you are interested, or you care to see how a particular Ranka fan would respond, please feel free to check my previous comment. There is a good chance that I have answered a similiar issue. And of course, my viewpoints do not necessarily represent other perspectivs from numerous Ranka fans in this planet
justavisitor is offline  
Old 2010-09-25, 16:35   Link #699
justinstrife
Queen Sheryl's Protector
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: John Galt Railroad
Age: 34
Send a message via AIM to justinstrife Send a message via Skype™ to justinstrife
When hormones are raging, when life and death situations are all around, when two young teenagers are in the right environment for it... Common sense is thrown out the window. What you might not have done hours ago, suddenly just happens.

That's all I'm gonna say on this subject.
justinstrife is offline  
Old 2010-09-25, 17:28   Link #700
moncikoma
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mei19 View Post
I think the truth is, Alto and Sheryl did do it. Based on the TV series, like Foreshadow had mentioned, the light novel has nothing to do with this.

Evidences:
1. Sheryl wanted Alto to give her the strength to move on. (What strength? Yeah, must be that.)
2. Alto complied after seeing Sheryl's state. He kissed her! (Of course he had to do that next. All the way.)
3. Alto's jacket was on his shoulders after that scene, evidence that he took it off.
4. Alto felt obligated to stay in Frontier, said he'll come back to Sheryl once he kills Ranka and Sheryl had to say "let's end this lovers game". Lovers game! What do lovers do? Yeah, that.

It's plain as day guys. Alto and Sheryl had sex in ep 22, there can't be anything else. Why would there be? It's hard to argue against explicit facts.

V-type infection is an imaginary disease, speculating what it is and what it's not is just a waste of time. If Kawamori says it's a virus that can turn people into gods, then it IS a virus that can turn people into gods. There are no limits when it comes to FICTION.

It just sucks even if Sheryl and Alto had sex, they still didn't get together fufufu
Hmmmmm....How about this x3,

They don't do sex because
1. Sheryl still wearing her kimono right.. And clean.
2. She's too weak to have sex...
3. After the scene It still midnight...if they do have sex... Then alto is a fast shooter!
4. Alto still wear his pants right... With shoes and still have stamina to chit chat on the phone
5. If I were him.. Sheryl & I will be naked...until morning...
6. Alto don't have the guts... He is too pasive
7. The room and kimono is from alto's mom... Because of that... Alto's not In mood

Last edited by moncikoma; 2010-09-25 at 17:39.
moncikoma is offline  
Closed Thread

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 18:44.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
We use Silk.