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Old 2010-09-28, 12:29   Link #2161
user112168
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Quote:
Originally Posted by magnuskn View Post
Besides talking and spending time with them, like every normal human does.
This is Macross, do standards of real-world human behaviour outweigh major plot points? With the earring, as I said to Wisteria, Alto get's to fly around a whole planet every day listening to their singing, while holding onto a symbolic memento of his Kobuki past.
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Actually, I think you misread that scene. It was Alto reminiscising how he used protecting Ranka as a cause to move forward in his life, because he was adrift before. He then goes on to explain how he since then has expanded his view to not only protect his friend Ranka, but how he wants to protect all of his home, ending in his determination that he even would kill Ranka if necessary. Which prompts Klan to realize that his love is for everybody on Frontier. There were some mistranslations in some fansubs, which had Klan say that "So she is your love", instead of "So this is your love".
And Sheryl came in late and only heard the last part of his conversation with Klan, which made her believe, wrongly, that he was going on about his love of Ranka.
Sure he loves Ranka. But not in a romantic way, by all indicators.
This is obviously a scene which has polarized a lot of opinion. I've only seen the "So this is your love" version, so that's not an issue. I'm rewatching and giving a critique (Note to both Sheryl and Ranka fanatics - neither side may be totally happy with my verdict)
I agree that Alto starts by describing himself adrift. His words carry on (let me know if this conflicts with your subs) :-
"And Then ... I met Her, I chose to join SMS to protect her, to fight, to protect. Even Since then ...."
He trails off at "ever since then ..." implying that he has been doing the same thing he just described up to a time near the present, which in itself implies a love for Ranka.
After klan speaks, Alto continues "It's true I might've been running away this whole time" (family past?)
"Pretending NOT TO NOTICE a lot of things" (my reading = pretending not to notice Sheryl's advances for Ranka's sake - as he speaks these words you actually SEE Sheryl for the first time in the scene - a DEAD GIVEAWAY, these guys love visual cues)
He goes on "But ... that's over NOW. It's a puny world that could be destroyed by the slightest imbalance ..."
This statement about Frontier is only true after Frontier was heavily damaged by the recent Vajra outbreak. He is describing a sudden change in his outlook, not a gradual transformation. Ranka's departure obviously triggered the change.

What he's saying here in regards to the relationships is that he was deliberately "not noticing" Sheryl because he wanted Ranka. If he didn't see a romantic future with Ranka previously he'd have no reason to pretend to "not notice" the other girl (whom he must have liked as well)
"but ... that's over now" implies 1-get with Sheryl("notice" her), and 2-No Ranka around, but ship is almost destroyed - new thing to fight for. 3- no more running away, accept the past

My verdict : Alto is saying He and Ranka are OVER (but he did LOVE her). And now he can NOTICE the thing he was PRETENDING not to - Sheryl.

Last edited by user112168; 2010-09-28 at 13:21.
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Old 2010-09-28, 12:45   Link #2162
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Your reasoning is only true if we consider Alto to have feelings for Ranka, and Ranka alone - and simply "not noticing" Sheryl's advances, which leaves us with his seeming utterly dense and oblivious, even more so than if he didn't "notice" either girl's feelings.

Obviously, lots of people disagree with that statement (me included), so...
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Old 2010-09-28, 12:48   Link #2163
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I think his line "pretending not to notice a lot of things" doesn't have anything to do with the girls. It's more like his responsibility to Frontier as a soldier since all this time he's been fighting all along for Ranka, and now that Frontier is in whack, he can't ignore it. Just my two cents. (that's worth a million)
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Old 2010-09-28, 12:52   Link #2164
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Originally Posted by BetoJR View Post
Your reasoning is only true if we consider Alto to have feelings for Ranka, and Ranka alone - and simply "not noticing" Sheryl's advances, which leaves us with his seeming utterly dense and oblivious, even more so than if he didn't "notice" either girl's feelings.

Obviously, lots of people disagree with that statement (me included), so...
In the real world it's common to have to choose between more than one potential mate. Having to choose one or the other may come down to a very slight difference in preference, because you DO have to make a final choice, no matter how much you like both girls. It can come down to as simple as which girl you met first. His "running away" comment may have partly related to him running away from making that choice (cowardice). Arguably, Ranka's departure helped him make that decision.

No he said "pretend not to notice" he was trying not to hurt their feelings, not being dense. Pretending something is a deliberate action. There's probably a dozen chances he could've got with Sheryl but didn't - this is Alto explaining he's hasn't actually been dense the whole time - he knew what was going on but acted like he didn't (see all the times michel wonders/says of Alto stuff like "god your dense" - always in relation to him apparently not noticing how much Ranka or Sheryl liked him - AND Alto was the SUPERB actor after all)

And it implies he loved both girls (why pretend not to notice advances from someone you don't like? just tell them off)

Last edited by user112168; 2010-09-28 at 13:49.
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Old 2010-09-28, 13:02   Link #2165
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Originally Posted by Mei19 View Post
I think his line "pretending not to notice a lot of things" doesn't have anything to do with the girls. It's more like his responsibility to Frontier as a soldier since all this time he's been fighting all along for Ranka, and now that Frontier is in whack, he can't ignore it. Just my two cents. (that's worth a million)
Yeah, but the only thing we're shown while he says this is the first glimpse of Sheryl, and he's discussing what he did during the time he was fighting to protect Ranka.

And that damage to Frontier was all new - not something he was previously ignoring. He never ignored Frontier anyway - always did his duty.

The need to "pretend not to notice" in itself implies he loved Sheryl TOO (which gradually increased). If he didn't, then he would've just told her to buzz off right at the start, he wouldn't have needed to pretend. You only pretend to ignore someones advances when you actually really want them, but feel you can't have them for whatever reason (i.e. already feel committed to someone else)

Last edited by user112168; 2010-09-28 at 13:23.
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Old 2010-09-28, 13:41   Link #2166
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Originally Posted by reelyanoob View Post
There's Video Evidence - Ep 15 (17:45) while Alto speaks it shows a FLASHBACK of the same ep 7 scene we've been discussing with Alto's downed VF25 inside the Vajra ship. So, It's Canon that he heard both their voices projected at that point in the story. Who sang first seems a side point which I've already addressed.
Well the heat was on him and he might have wanted to difuse some of it. Who cares about logistics then?


Quote:
Since Alto himself can't directly interact with fold-waves at all, the fold-quartz must convert the fold-waves into something that he can sense. Logical to assume it works the other way too, given the 3-way conversation they have in the finale. There's no other explanation than Alto's consciousness was projected to the girls via the fold-quartz. And it's not the girls themselves who have the waves - it's the Vajra infection which is the same thing Vajra have in their own stomachs.
He can't produce fold waves the earring does not give the ability to produce fold waves it merely acts like a speaker. Alto never had the ability to communicate with fold waves.

Quote:
Brera also senses fold waves and was able to communicate with Ranka in the finale the same way, no V-type infection needed, he just had fold quartz - 2 types - one in his harmonica, and secondly he was part of Grace's zero-time network she build based on fold-quartz - so Brera had to have a fold-quartz implant for this. It is shown to confer the same abilities on Brera as Alto gets while having the earring(s).
Brera is Ranka's brother by blood and was most likely chosen by Grace (like Sheryl) for his abilities so your example fails right there. He didn't need a fold quartz item he already had the ability.

Quote:
He can hear the girls singing while flying ANYWHERE around the beautiful new planet if he KEEPS the earring, and the female earring symbolizes his character development (coming to accept Kobuki past). This pretty much sums up Alto's entire reason for existence, why would they change this from where it is at the series end? The movie will end more or less the same IMO.
Except the earring is not his, it belongs to Sheryl, what part about that don't you understand? Or are you trying to say that Sheryl should throw away the only thing she has left of her family for the sake of love triangle, which she is leading in? And Alto would be a jerk for not returning the earring, knowing what it meant to her. Sheryl doesn't really care about its abilities but its symbolism to her. Alto won't keep the earring frankly he really has no reason to, and whose to say that Sheryl won't ask him to return her earring? Alto accepting the earring has nothing with Kabuki, he already came to terms with his past when he decided to protect Frontier, and when he go back home (for Sheryl). That's what his whole conversation with Klan Klan was about, him staying in Frontier was a symbol of that. By that time he had already developed, he didn't the earring to symbolize it. His presence in Frontier and his different opinion were proof enough. In other words nothing will be lost from Alto's character if he returns the earring, as is expected of him.

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Anything could be called Deus-ex-machina by that standard.
Grace's zero-time network she built, which included Brera, gave instant two-way communication using fold-quartz implants. No need for a v-type infection.
Macross compendium on fold quartz says it's a fold-wave emitter :
http://macross.anime.net/wiki/Fold_Quartz
So, the 2-way nature of fold wave communications is Canon, not something they pulled out of a hat at the last minute. The ep 25 3-way conversation is foreshadowed by Brera and Ranka earlier in ep 25, and Sheryl and Ranka in ep 7. Maybe Alto couldn't join in the earlier one because previously he hadn't "let his feelings guide the way" (Kawamori's a hippie!) and he didn't have the fold-quartz close enough to him in ep 7 for the full effect (he only ever wore earring #2)
It was a Dues ex Machina when it first used, it was an item (that was important to Sheryl) that was previously just a memento, until Alto needed to be saved.

And Brera is Ranka's brother he already the ability to communicate with others because of his genes. Also where do you get the idea that Brera had fold quartz implants, he's a cyborg he has machinery in there.

Again Brera is Ranka's brother by blood so him being able to communicate through fold waves makes sense, however Alto does not have the ability, therefore your examples fail.
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Old 2010-09-28, 13:58   Link #2167
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Quote:
Originally Posted by reelyanoob View Post
Yeah, but the only thing we're shown while he says this is the first glimpse of Sheryl, and he's discussing what he did during the time he was fighting to protect Ranka.

And that damage to Frontier was all new - not something he was previously ignoring. He never ignored Frontier anyway - always did his duty.

The need to "pretend not to notice" in itself implies he loved Sheryl TOO (which gradually increased). If he didn't, then he would've just told her to buzz off right at the start, he wouldn't have needed to pretend. You only pretend to ignore someones advances when you actually really want them, but feel you can't have them for whatever reason (i.e. already feel committed to someone else)
Since I am an Alto x Ranka fan, I'll give you my interpretation of the visual cues used in that particular conversation.

When Alto begins reminiscing, we see why he left home (and ran away from his past.) His dream or his love for the sky is what drove him to become a pilot. In this flashback scene we see Alto's mother combing his hair and if we go back to episode 19 (the 12 minute mark to be exact,) Yasaburo had an interesting conversation with Sheryl in which he labeled that exact flashback scene as a "scene full of love." Which follows flashbacks of Ranka.

Interestingly enough, if you look at episode 13 (around 5:35 and on) we see an identical scene to the one I just mentioned, except in this case it's Ranka combing Alto's hair this time. Yes, I'm well aware that this is a bit of a stretch but my shipper side felt like mentioning this They could have simply put this scene as a flashback in Alto's conversation with Klan although they could have been trying to avoid a resolution to the Love Triangle

Quote:
Originally Posted by wisteria233 View Post
Brera is Ranka's brother by blood and was most likely chosen by Grace (like Sheryl) for his abilities so your example fails right there. He didn't need a fold quartz item he already had the ability.

And Brera is Ranka's brother he already the ability to communicate with others because of his genes. Also where do you get the idea that Brera had fold quartz implants, he's a cyborg he has machinery in there.

Again Brera is Ranka's brother by blood so him being able to communicate through fold waves makes sense, however Alto does not have the ability, therefore your examples fail.
Actually I believe Brera is Ranka's older brother and Ranka contracted the disease through their mother's womb so unless Brera and Ranka are twins, I don't see how Brera could otherwise have the same ability.

Also reeyanoob brings up a pretty good question. How was Alto able to communicate with Ranka and Sheryl at the same time after Ranka revived Sheryl? By process of elimination one can come to the conclusion that the earring allowed Alto to communicate with Sheryl and Ranka.
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Last edited by DeX-kun; 2010-09-28 at 14:09.
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Old 2010-09-28, 14:14   Link #2168
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Originally Posted by wisteria233 View Post
Well the heat was on him and he might have wanted to difuse some of it. Who cares about logistics then?
Yeah, right, only if you assume Brera and Grace's lot were in on the lie with Alto seeing as they said the same thing he did. That's at ep 15 (9:45) btw.
This particular thread is just getting silly.
Quote:
He can't produce fold waves the earring does not give the ability to produce fold waves it merely acts like a speaker. Alto never had the ability to communicate with fold waves.
Apart from the fact that complete Alto/Ranka/Sheryl visual and audio communication is actually shown on screen in ep 25 (12:00)? You can call it "Deus ex Machina" or whatever, but if it's on screen. it's canon in my book. Depart too far from the source, and any interpretation is valid.
Quote:
Brera is Ranka's brother by blood and was most likely chosen by Grace (like Sheryl) for his abilities so your example fails right there. He didn't need a fold quartz item he already had the ability.
That is so non-canon it's not funny. The fold wave humans ONLY come from the v-type infection. But Grace built the prototype zero-time implant network using fold-quartz from Vajra, it's the voices you hear alongside Grace sometimes. This IS canon.
Quote:
Except the earring is not his, it belongs to Sheryl, what part about that don't you understand? Or are you trying to say that Sheryl should throw away the only thing she has left of her family for the sake of love triangle, which she is leading in? And Alto would be a jerk for not returning the earring, knowing what it meant to her. Sheryl doesn't really care about its abilities but its symbolism to her. Alto won't keep the earring frankly he really has no reason to. and whose to say that Sheryl won't ask him to return her earring?
Other than to be able to fly around all day exploring while listening to his two BFFs beautiful singing? Even without the full connectivity which is shown on screen yet you say is impossible in the series, letting him hear their voices while riding the wind would be reason enough for Sheryl to want Alto to keep the earring
Quote:
Alto accepting the earring has nothing with Kabuki, he already came to terms with his past when he decided to protect Frontier,
Yeah, the reformed crossdresser wearing a very girlie earring is so NOT symbolic. Pretty random connection there. Those Japanese HATE symbolism.
Quote:
and when he go back home (for Sheryl). That's what his whole conversation with Klan Klan was about, him staying in Frontier was a symbol of that. By that time he had already developed, he didn't the earring to symbolize it. His presence in Frontier and his different opinion were proof enough. In other words nothing will be lost from Alto's character if he returns the earring, as is expected of him.
Nothing but flying free while your friends are singing.
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It was a Dues ex Machina when it first used, it was an item (that was important to Sheryl) that was previously just a memento, until Alto needed to be saved.
Deus Ex Machina or not, it's in the series. And anything used the first time could be called Deus-ex-Machina
Quote:
And Brera is Ranka's brother he already the ability to communicate with others because of his genes. Also where do you get the idea that Brera had fold quartz implants, he's a cyborg he has machinery in there.
Grace's implant tech was based on fold-quartz, plus he had fold-quartz on his harmonica.
Quote:
Again Brera is Ranka's brother by blood so him being able to communicate through fold waves makes sense, however Alto does not have the ability, therefore your examples fail.
Being someones brother makes no difference in MacF with fold waves! That makes no sense! There's not a single line in the show to back up what you've just said, but we DO know Grace's implants had fold-quartz.

How can citing the event as shown on screen 'fail'? For the record it's ep 25 (12:00) clearly Alto is being received by the other two.

Last edited by user112168; 2010-09-28 at 15:27.
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Old 2010-09-28, 17:44   Link #2169
magnuskn
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Originally Posted by reelyanoob View Post
This is Macross, do standards of real-world human behaviour outweigh major plot points? With the earring, as I said to Wisteria, Alto get's to fly around a whole planet every day listening to their singing, while holding onto a symbolic memento of his Kobuki past.
It's "Kabuki". And while Macross certainly is about music breaching the distance between different people, it is also about people interacting with each other, bridging their distance in the normal manner as we normal humans do. What defined the relationship between Sheryl and Alto and Ranka was almost in its entirety how they interacted with each other, not that they go on extravaganzas on a higher plane of music.

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Originally Posted by reelyanoob View Post
This is obviously a scene which has polarized a lot of opinion. I've only seen the "So this is your love" version, so that's not an issue. I'm rewatching and giving a critique (Note to both Sheryl and Ranka fanatics - neither side may be totally happy with my verdict)
I agree that Alto starts by describing himself adrift. His words carry on (let me know if this conflicts with your subs) :-
"And Then ... I met Her, I chose to join SMS to protect her, to fight, to protect. Even Since then ...."
He trails off at "ever since then ..." implying that he has been doing the same thing he just described up to a time near the present, which in itself implies a love for Ranka.
I don't exactly follow how the "Since then" ( no "ever" in my translation ) implies romantic love for Ranka. Brotherly love? Sure, and that's not something I would try to dispute. There's a reason why his voice audibly breaks when he says he'd even kill Ranka.

Quote:
Originally Posted by reelyanoob View Post
After klan speaks, Alto continues "It's true I might've been running away this whole time" (family past?)
"Pretending NOT TO NOTICE a lot of things" (my reading = pretending not to notice Sheryl's advances for Ranka's sake - as he speaks these words you actually SEE Sheryl for the first time in the scene - a DEAD GIVEAWAY, these guys love visual cues)
Exactly how again does showing Sheryl in that particular say that he ignored her for loving Ranka? A reading of "I ignored Sheryl to not hurt Rankas feelings, which I noticed long ago but also ignored, because I am not interested in her in that way" would make make much more sense.

And in the whole context of his speech, going rah-rah over protecting everyone on Frontier, it could also very well mean that he ignored his love for Frontier until now, only seeing it as a barrier to his desire to fly freely. Not every single scene needs to be about the romantic triangle. Sheryl appearing at just that point could in that case simply be attributed to it being the perfect time for her to misunderstand what Alto was going on about.

Quote:
Originally Posted by reelyanoob View Post
He goes on "But ... that's over NOW. It's a puny world that could be destroyed by the slightest imbalance ..."
This statement about Frontier is only true after Frontier was heavily damaged by the recent Vajra outbreak. He is describing a sudden change in his outlook, not a gradual transformation. Ranka's departure obviously triggered the change.
Uh, no? He developed the worldview of us vs. them, which btw was one of his less admirable traits, after hearing the last words of the Kwamzin clone ( Temzin? ). While in the end it carried over to the much more admirable goal of wanting to protect everybody in his home, this adversarial view of "only one can survive" was nurtured over many incidents since episode fourteen and came into full blossom when Ranka turned up at Griffith Park with the evolved Ai-kun ( I still facepalm at that incredibly inconsiderate and stupid behaviour of hers. ).

Yeah, after Ranka left and didn't need to be protected anymore, he had the liberty to re-focus himself towards Sheryl and Frontier as a whole. So in that sense you are right. But in the sense that he only noticed Macross vulnerability and the need for decisive action, including killing Ranka if necessary, because of Rankas departure is patently wrong.

Quote:
Originally Posted by reelyanoob View Post
What he's saying here in regards to the relationships is that he was deliberately "not noticing" Sheryl because he wanted Ranka. If he didn't see a romantic future with Ranka previously he'd have no reason to pretend to "not notice" the other girl (whom he must have liked as well)
"but ... that's over now" implies 1-get with Sheryl("notice" her), and 2-No Ranka around, but ship is almost destroyed - new thing to fight for. 3- no more running away, accept the past

My verdict : Alto is saying He and Ranka are OVER (but he did LOVE her). And now he can NOTICE the thing he was PRETENDING not to - Sheryl.
That actually would work, if there wasn't a whole ton of evidence that he did, in fact, not love Ranka romantically. I don't really want to recite every shred of that evidence, although if you insist I'll do the research, but for all your analysis, it comes out in the end that the point you are making would work both with Alto not deciding for Sheryl because he either loved Ranka romantically or just loved her fraternally and didn't want to hurt her feelings. There has yet to be someone who can give convincing evidence of his romantical love for her after episode 15. There were eight episodes until ep 23 where no sign of romantic love was seen again, while there were a great number of events which brought Sheryl and Alto closer and closer. Hell, in episode 17 we got the ultimate romantic downer moment, when there was a perfectly good moment to advance the relationship between Alto and Ranka.
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Old 2010-09-28, 17:58   Link #2170
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DeX-kun View Post
Since I am an Alto x Ranka fan, I'll give you my interpretation of the visual cues used in that particular conversation.

When Alto begins reminiscing, we see why he left home (and ran away from his past.) His dream or his love for the sky is what drove him to become a pilot. In this flashback scene we see Alto's mother combing his hair and if we go back to episode 19 (the 12 minute mark to be exact,) Yasaburo had an interesting conversation with Sheryl in which he labeled that exact flashback scene as a "scene full of love." Which follows flashbacks of Ranka.
Wait, so you are correlating two completely unrelated scenes with each other to somehow produce a "Alto loved his mommy very much and that is why he loves Ranka" effect?

Quote:
Originally Posted by DeX-kun View Post
Interestingly enough, if you look at episode 13 (around 5:35 and on) we see an identical scene to the one I just mentioned, except in this case it's Ranka combing Alto's hair this time. Yes, I'm well aware that this is a bit of a stretch but my shipper side felt like mentioning this They could have simply put this scene as a flashback in Alto's conversation with Klan although they could have been trying to avoid a resolution to the Love Triangle
Yup, I think there is a reason why they didn't put it in, which is because Alto doesn't think Ranka is his mom.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DeX-kun View Post
Actually I believe Brera is Ranka's older brother and Ranka contracted the disease through their mother's womb so unless Brera and Ranka are twins, I don't see how Brera could otherwise have the same ability.
Yeah, I'll have to file Breras ability to appear to Ranka in the "fridge logic" category.

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Originally Posted by DeX-kun View Post
Also reeyanoob brings up a pretty good question. How was Alto able to communicate with Ranka and Sheryl at the same time after Ranka revived Sheryl? By process of elimination one can come to the conclusion that the earring allowed Alto to communicate with Sheryl and Ranka.c
Sure it did. Was that ever in question? Unless I missed something, the discussion between Wisteria and reeyanoob is at this point about Alto giving back the ring to Sheryl ( which, IMO, should be taken as the next logical step 100% ).
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Old 2010-09-28, 18:04   Link #2171
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Ranka kiss count :
1.Under water, part of an acting... But give quite damage to alto

Sheryl kiss count :
1. In an island, a sudden jelousy kiss..looks like kidding... but cute kiss..."
2. In the room a victory kiss... A kiss that may start a sex scene..
3. In sheryl makeup room... A bold kiss .. But one sided kiss...

Sheryl won 2-3 steps ahed of ranka...in the tv series...

But how about in 2nd movie? From the poster we can see that ranka is the main chara..
So I have a feeling that she will make a comeback!

She said to sheryl in ep 25 that she won't lose in love and career...
It seems that in 2nd movie ...

It will revolved more in ranka effort on her carrer and love...
And there will only 1 winner in carrer and 1 winner in love...

Both ranka and sheryl has to choose... Between carrer or love...!
While alto don't want both to give up their carrer just for love...
So it will be a complicated triangle love..

But If I have to bet... I think the winner in love is ranka...
While the winner in carrer is sheryl...

Why? Simple...! Because sheryl is a pro...
A pro never give up in carrer or her fan...

"Watashiwa sheriru nome" she always said it right? That means she has a principle and main Gol
Not like ranka who is an amateur singer, who only think alien + alto + and her bro in her head...
Too many distraction... She will have a hard time on her carrer...

Just my opinion...hehe... But I feel more like it if alto dump sheryl... Because ...
She is mine hahaha
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Old 2010-09-28, 18:39   Link #2172
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Originally Posted by moncikoma View Post
Ranka kiss count :
1.Under water, part of an acting... But give quite damage to alto
Uh, really? How so? The look on his face? That was just a carbon copy how the guy from Macross Zero looked in the particular scene with the real Mao.

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Originally Posted by moncikoma View Post
Sheryl kiss count :
1. In an island, a sudden jelousy kiss..looks like kidding... but cute kiss..."
2. In the room a victory kiss... A kiss that may start a sex scene..
3. In sheryl makeup room... A bold kiss .. But one sided kiss...
Not really. Alto hugged her back during the kiss, which you'll see if you take a look at the scene of them standing in front of the window.

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Originally Posted by moncikoma View Post
She said to sheryl in ep 25 that she won't lose in love and career...
It seems that in 2nd movie ...
The Movie and TV series are completely separate continuities and have no bearing on each other.

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Originally Posted by moncikoma View Post
But If I have to bet... I think the winner in love is ranka...
While the winner in carrer is sheryl...

Why? Simple...! Because sheryl is a pro...
A pro never give up in carrer or her fan...
She was willing to give up being a star before in the TV series and when she made her come-back, it wasn't for being a star or having a career.
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Old 2010-09-28, 18:48   Link #2173
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Originally Posted by DeX-kun View Post
Actually I believe Brera is Ranka's older brother and Ranka contracted the disease through their mother's womb so unless Brera and Ranka are twins, I don't see how Brera could otherwise have the same ability.

Also reeyanoob brings up a pretty good question. How was Alto able to communicate with Ranka and Sheryl at the same time after Ranka revived Sheryl? By process of elimination one can come to the conclusion that the earring allowed Alto to communicate with Sheryl and Ranka.
Then you're going to have to answer when Ranka's mother contracted the disease. Remember Brera(19) is not much older than Alto or Sheryl who are both only one year older than Ranka each. Also keep in mind the V-type virus is slow moving so it would take it longer than 2-3 years for it to become a problem, which it was Ranshe. So its quite possible for him to have been in mother's womb when she had contracted the virus. In this case time is everything, also remember that both Ranka and Brera share the same mother, and if a mother has a disease her children can inherit it from her. They don't have to be twins they just have to have the same mother.

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Originally Posted by reelyanoob View Post
Yeah, right, only if you assume Brera and Grace's lot were in on the lie with Alto seeing as they said the same thing he did. That's at ep 15 (9:45) btw.
This particular thread is just getting silly.
I don't understand what you're saying Brera and Grace have nothing to do with Alto. Please keep on topic.

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Apart from the fact that complete Alto/Ranka/Sheryl visual and audio communication is actually shown on screen in ep 25 (12:00)? You can call it "Deus ex Machina" or whatever, but if it's on screen. it's canon in my book. Depart too far from the source, and any interpretation is valid.
Because Alto was not previously shown to have that ability. Which comes from humans infected with the V-type infection, and if want to say was infected with the V-type infection then go right ahead.

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That is so non-canon it's not funny. The fold wave humans ONLY come from the v-type infection. But Grace built the prototype zero-time implant network using fold-quartz from Vajra, it's the voices you hear alongside Grace sometimes. This IS canon.
It is canon that Brera is Ranka's brother by blood, it is also canon that their mother had the V-type infection. By the way if Grace could produce fold waves herself then why did need Ranka, to communicate with the Vajra? Your ignoring the facts to suit yourself.

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Other than to be able to fly around all day exploring while listening to his two BFFs beautiful singing? Even without the full connectivity which is shown on screen yet you say is impossible in the series, letting him hear their voices while riding the wind would be reason enough for Sheryl to want Alto to keep the earring
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Yeah, the reformed crossdresser wearing a very girlie earring is so NOT symbolic. Pretty random connection there. Those Japanese HATE symbolism.

Nothing but flying free while your friends are singing.
It is Kabuki from your comment it shows that you know absolutely nothing about Japanese culture. Way to be ignorant. Kabuki is traditional Japanese theater that is held in high regard to the general society. All the actors who take part in Kabuki are male, and not only that but it also considered a very respectful profession, for males to take part in, no matter the role. Next time visit wikipedia . Also while Alto was dismissive of his Kabuki background, he had integrated it with so much of his life that one could say that he wasn't as against it as he wanted others to believe. It wasn't so much his background in Kabuki that was the problem in fact in a drama CD Alto has no qualms with cross dressing, it was the fact that he didn't want to inherit the family business that was the problem.

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Deus Ex Machina or not, it's in the series. And anything used the first time could be called Deus-ex-Machina
Something being in a series doesn't stop it from being a Dues ex Machina.

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Grace's implant tech was based on fold-quartz, plus he had fold-quartz on his harmonica.
Now you're pulling shit out of your ass. I can't decide if you're joking or if you're serious.
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Being someones brother makes no difference in MacF with fold waves! That makes no sense! There's not a single line in the show to back up what you've just said, but we DO know Grace's implants had fold-quartz.
It does make the difference considering that their mother was contracted with the V-type virus, and the fold quartz act as a amplifier.

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How can citing the event as shown on screen 'fail'? For the record it's ep 25 (12:00) clearly Alto is being received by the other two.
Because it was never stated that Brera had fold quartz in his body just cybernetics, and I already answered the question about Alto.

You really need to put things within the context, when you're arguing. You also have a habit of forgetting information to suit yourself.
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Old 2010-09-28, 18:58   Link #2174
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Originally Posted by wisteria233 View Post
Because Alto was not previously shown to have that ability. Which comes from humans infected with the V-type infection, and if want to say was infected with the V-type infection then go right ahead.
That'd be particularly funny, considering the implications.
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Old 2010-09-28, 20:02   Link #2175
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I don't understand what you're saying Brera and Grace have nothing to do with Alto. Please keep on topic.
Ep 15 9:45+. I guess I have to spell it out for you again. Grace's cohort are discussing the Battle in episode 7. They mention Brera (in the Vajra carrier while Alto is there too) monitoring Sheryl's singing, and that he unexpectedly hears Ranka. This is independent corroboration of Alto's claim made at ep 15(17:45) that he heard both girls singing.
You were disputing this, I gave you relevant scenes which corroborate each other.
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Because Alto was not previously shown to have that ability. Which comes from humans infected with the V-type infection, and if want to say was infected with the V-type infection then go right ahead.
It is canon that Brera is Ranka's brother by blood, it is also canon that their mother had the V-type infection. By the way if Grace could produce fold waves herself then why did need Ranka, to communicate with the Vajra? Your ignoring the facts to suit yourself.
You're ignoring ep 23 14:20+ where Ai-kun turns on Ranka just after arriving at the Vajra system, and hands them into Grace's control. A clear case of Grace being able to control the Vajra to some degree. That's a fact, you going to ignore that?
We know that Ranka's mother had the V-type infection when Ranka was conceived, but that's all. Brera could have the v-type, but he doesn't seem to have the symptoms at all. No lighting up belly, no making earrings flash, etc. His power is definitely closer to Alto's with the earring than to Ranka or Sheryl.
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It is Kabuki from your comment it shows that you know absolutely nothing about Japanese culture. Way to be ignorant. Kabuki is traditional Japanese theater that is held in high regard to the general society. All the actors who take part in Kabuki are male, and not only that but it also considered a very respectful profession, for males to take part in, no matter the role. Next time visit wikipedia . Also while Alto was dismissive of his Kabuki background, he had integrated it with so much of his life that one could say that he wasn't as against it as he wanted others to believe. It wasn't so much his background in Kabuki that was the problem in fact in a drama CD Alto has no qualms with cross dressing, it was the fact that he didn't want to inherit the family business that was the problem.
Can't take a joke, huh? Maybe i was a little of colour though. I was trying to use humour to make the point, which you obviously chose to miss.
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Something being in a series doesn't stop it from being a Dues ex Machina.
But being in the series makes it canon, regardless. So there' no point left for you to make.
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Now you're pulling shit out of your ass. I can't decide if you're joking or if you're serious.
I check and you're right about the harmonica. I must've misread the metal bit as a gem, but looking closer the colour's not right.
But there's still the matter of Grace's fold-quartz implant tech, described in ep 24, 5:00+. This is the basis of her network (the voices you hear with her) and of any tech which interfaces with fold-waves, hence why they want so much of it.
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It does make the difference considering that their mother was contracted with the V-type virus, and the fold quartz act as a amplifier.
Because it was never stated that Brera had fold quartz in his body just cybernetics, and I already answered the question about Alto.
Grace's implants for controlling people were based on fold-quartz (ep 23 5:00).
So logically Brera had one of these implants. After it was damaged in ep 25, he was out of their control, but he would still have the fold-quartz crystal inside his skull. There's no source for him having the v-type infection himself though (his belly never lights up or anything, assuming he had the safe version like Ranka)
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You really need to put things within the context, when you're arguing. You also have a habit of forgetting information to suit yourself.
What information am I forgetting?

Last edited by user112168; 2010-09-29 at 00:32.
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Old 2010-09-28, 20:59   Link #2176
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Originally Posted by magnuskn View Post
Wait, so you are correlating two completely unrelated scenes with each other to somehow produce a "Alto loved his mommy very much and that is why he loves Ranka" effect?

Yup, I think there is a reason why they didn't put it in, which is because Alto doesn't think Ranka is his mom.
Hey, the show implied as much, not me Like I said, it's just a theory of mine which is meant to be taken with a grain of salt

Quote:
Originally Posted by magnuskn View Post
Sure it did. Was that ever in question? Unless I missed something, the discussion between Wisteria and reeyanoob is at this point about Alto giving back the ring to Sheryl ( which, IMO, should be taken as the next logical step 100% ).
Actually, wisteria is implying that Brera somehow had the V-type infection since birth which doesn't seem to be correct if I go by some inferences.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wisteria233 View Post
Then you're going to have to answer when Ranka's mother contracted the disease. Remember Brera(19) is not much older than Alto or Sheryl who are both only one year older than Ranka each. Also keep in mind the V-type virus is slow moving so it would take it longer than 2-3 years for it to become a problem, which it was Ranshe. So its quite possible for him to have been in mother's womb when she had contracted the virus. In this case time is everything, also remember that both Ranka and Brera share the same mother, and if a mother has a disease her children can inherit it from her. They don't have to be twins they just have to have the same mother.
I can't tell you when exactly Ranshe contracted the V-type infection but I can infer that Brera most certainly never had the infection, otherwise Ranka wouldn't be such an important piece to Grace's puzzle. What's the point of using Ranka when Grace could have used Brera from the beginning if we go by your theory.

As I previously stated, by process of elimination we can conclude that Brera never had the infection in the first place.
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Old 2010-09-28, 22:34   Link #2177
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Originally Posted by DeX-kun View Post
Hey, the show implied as much, not me Like I said, it's just a theory of mine which is meant to be taken with a grain of salt



Actually, wisteria is implying that Brera somehow had the V-type infection since birth which doesn't seem to be correct if I go by some inferences.



I can't tell you when exactly Ranshe contracted the V-type infection but I can infer that Brera most certainly never had the infection, otherwise Ranka wouldn't be such an important piece to Grace's puzzle. What's the point of using Ranka when Grace could have used Brera from the beginning if we go by your theory.

As I previously stated, by process of elimination we can conclude that Brera never had the infection in the first place.
The only real inference we have to go by is them saying that Ranshe had the virus when she gave birth to Ranka, they never said anything about Brera because logically they weren't looking for information about him.


Quote:
Originally Posted by reelyanoob View Post
Ep 24: 4:50+ gives details of Ranka's birth, followed by details of how Grace uses fold-quartz in her implant/control tech.
they only said that Ranshe had the virus and was unaware of it when she gave birth to Ranka, they never talk about Brera, though there are many reasons for this first of all , they don't have any idea as to whether or not Brera is actually alive, so he doesn't matter to them. If a character doesn't matter then they won't think to bring it up with him.

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Ep 15 9:45+. I guess I have to spell it out for you again. Grace's cohort are discussing the Battle in episode 7. They mention Brera (in the Vajra carrier while Alto is there too) monitoring Sheryl's singing, and that he unexpectedly hears Ranka. This is independent corroboration of Alto's claim made at ep 15(17:45) that he heard both girls singing.
You were disputing this, I gave you relevant scenes which corroborate each other.
Which doesn't prove your point,
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You're ignoring ep 23 14:20+ where Ai-kun turns on Ranka just after arriving at the Vajra system, and hands them into Grace's control. A clear case of Grace being able to control the Vajra to some degree. That's a fact, you going to ignore that?
Grace controlled Ranka who then controlled the Vajra. Once Ranka woke up Grace lost control over the Vajra.

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We know that Ranka's mother had the V-type infection when Ranka was conceived, but that's all. Brera could have the v-type, but he doesn't seem to have the symptoms at all. No lighting up belly, no making earrings flash, etc. His power is definitely closer to Alto's with the earring than to Ranka or Sheryl.
Exactly the characters only talk about Ranka because she is important to them, they don't even bother to look up anything about Brera

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Can't take a joke, huh? Maybe i was a little of colour though. I was trying to use humour to make the point, which you obviously chose to miss.
Considering the fact that you've been touting that scene around as Alto's sudden break through in terms of character development, makes for why your joke doesn't translate well.

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But being in the series makes it canon, regardless. So there' no point left for you to make.
It doesn't make it any less of a Dues ex Machina, that's what I said on the subject of Alto suddenly being able to use fold waves.

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I check and you're right about the harmonica. I must've misread the metal bit as a gem, but looking closer the colour's not right.
But there's still the matter of Grace's fold-quartz implant tech, described in ep 24, 5:00+. This is the basis of her network (the voices you hear with her) and of any tech which interfaces with fold-waves, hence why they want so much of it.
You've actually misread a lot of scenes. Brera's also had said harmonica since he was young, so you might want to abandon ship on your theory of Brera having anything but cybernetic attachments. Those voices share one body, she's not talking to them from across the galaxy, she's talking to them inside her head. It was explained in the third Drama Cd.

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Grace's implants for controlling people were based on fold-quartz (ep 23 5:00).
So logically Brera had one of these implants. After it was damaged in ep 25, he was out of their control, but he would still have the fold-quartz crystal inside his skull. There's no source for him having the v-type infection himself though (his belly never lights up or anything, assuming he had the safe version like Ranka)
Again Brera is a cyborg he has cybernetics attached to his body. It was never stated that Brera had fold quatrz in his body where does it say that Brera had fold quatrz in his body. The blood could have just been because of strain from him breaking free from the programing installed by Grace. Never once did they say that he had fold quartz in his head. Its more of an example of cybernetics eat your soul. Grace controlled Brera like she controlled galaxy.

What information am I forgetting?[/QUOTE]
Many things such as 1) They never said that Brera had fold quartz installed his body just cybernetics 2)Grace used Ranka to control the Vajra because she couldn't do so on her own 3) Alto does not have the ability to produce fold waves 4)They also never said that Grace had fold quartz installed in her body either so I have no idea where you got that from 5)Fold quartz is a rare commodity in the Macross universe there isn't enough to just go passing around like its the holidays 6)Grace and Brera as well as most of Galaxy are cyborgs as in they have cybernetics installed in them, yes their minds included (in the Drama CDs Grace erases her memories of Sheryl growing up so that she would be able to exact her revenge).7) fold quartz does not give you the ability to emit your own fold waves
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Old 2010-09-28, 23:33   Link #2178
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Originally Posted by magnuskn View Post
It's "Kabuki". And while Macross certainly is about music breaching the distance between different people, it is also about people interacting with each other, bridging their distance in the normal manner as we normal humans do. What defined the relationship between Sheryl and Alto and Ranka was almost in its entirety how they interacted with each other, not that they go on extravaganzas on a higher plane of music.
Macross 7?
I'm still betting on things staying as they are at series end (my prediction for the movie) Sheryl will want Alto to keep the earring. They all gain this way.
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I don't exactly follow how the "Since then" ( no "ever" in my translation ) implies romantic love for Ranka. Brotherly love? Sure, and that's not something I would try to dispute. There's a reason why his voice audibly breaks when he says he'd even kill Ranka.
Looking at Alto's "since then" line was just establishing the time period he was discussing, from meeting Ranka to her departure, where he felt either protective or romantic love, depending on opinion.
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Exactly how again does showing Sheryl in that particular say that he ignored her for loving Ranka? A reading of "I ignored Sheryl to not hurt Rankas feelings, which I noticed long ago but also ignored, because I am not interested in her in that way" would make make much more sense.
Actually I now think "pretending not to notice" relates to both girls like you said, hence all Michel's comments (I'm paraphrasing here) "you dense man, our what?" related to Ranka or Sheryl.
Basically, he at least knew each of them liked him, but didn't want to hurt either's feelings, that scenario became irrelevant after Ranka left.

Your scenario works, so I guess it's down to opinion on how much Alto loved Ranka here. I'm reading a bit more into Alto's initial attraction to Ranka than you are I think.
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And in the whole context of his speech, going rah-rah over protecting everyone on Frontier, it could also very well mean that he ignored his love for Frontier until now, only seeing it as a barrier to his desire to fly freely. Not every single scene needs to be about the romantic triangle. Sheryl appearing at just that point could in that case simply be attributed to it being the perfect time for her to misunderstand what Alto was going on about.
...which would make it a love-triangle scene anyway
Protecting Frontier could explain the "running away" line, he was always after a sky, with the fragile environment comment related to the bad state of the ship after the attack.

Got any scenes that back up another interpretation of the "pretending not to notice" idea other than that it was referring Sheryl and Ranka? We have all the scenes where Alto acts dense to the girls' interests, Michel's comments on the matter, and seeing the girl who is about to receive the benefits of his new-found attention (sheryl) appearing as he says this line.
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Uh, no? He developed the worldview of us vs. them, which btw was one of his less admirable traits, after hearing the last words of the Kwamzin clone ( Temzin? ). While in the end it carried over to the much more admirable goal of wanting to protect everybody in his home, this adversarial view of "only one can survive" was nurtured over many incidents since episode fourteen and came into full blossom when Ranka turned up at Griffith Park with the evolved Ai-kun ( I still facepalm at that incredibly inconsiderate and stupid behaviour of hers. ).
Yep, but that's Ranka's departure your talking about, hence the flash point was still Ranka's departure, even though the build up took many episodes.
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Yeah, after Ranka left and didn't need to be protected anymore, he had the liberty to re-focus himself towards Sheryl and Frontier as a whole. So in that sense you are right. But in the sense that he only noticed Macross vulnerability and the need for decisive action, including killing Ranka if necessary, because of Rankas departure is patently wrong.
He definitely wouldn't have mentioned anything about killing Ranka if she hadn't left, so it think this line at least is 100% dependent on her having left
The only person mentioned by name in the conversation is Ranka. Alto goes from their meeting, his vow to protect her, and now, the need to kill her. So, even if Alto has been developing the trait of protectiveness towards MacF over may episodes, this conversation would never have happened at all if she hadn't left like she did.
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That actually would work, if there wasn't a whole ton of evidence that he did, in fact, not love Ranka romantically.[...]
No need to open up that line of inquiry, we'd be here form weeks. though what Alto was thinking in his head (especially with his claim of being deliberately obtuse) will always be a subject of debate.

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Old 2010-09-29, 00:02   Link #2179
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Now you're pulling s**t out of your ass. I can't decide if you're joking or if you're serious.
http://celestialkitsune.wordpress.co...er-episode-23/



One close-up of Brera's harmonica, zoom up close and note it *looks* like there's a gem of similar colour as Sheryl's earring, at the very top, and the shape is similar too. This shot is from episode 23, just before the 10min mark

Now that I look at this it's probably just a lighting issue LOL, other times it just looks like metal, but other times still the top bit seems to be missing(off-model??). This is Macross, so it's not *completely* impossible I'm pretty sure I saw a similar effect in earlier episodes (when I didn't even have ep 23+) so who knows. The harmonica was able to have some power over Ranka btw.

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Old 2010-09-29, 02:17   Link #2180
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Originally Posted by wisteria233 View Post
The only real inference we have to go by is them saying that Ranshe had the virus when she gave birth to Ranka, they never said anything about Brera because logically they weren't looking for information about him.
You have zero evidence for Brera being infected by v-type bacteria, whereas there is the video ep 24 5:00+ discusses Grace's use of fold-quartz in her control implants.
Also, Brera's abilities are more in line with Alto + earring than with Ranka / Sheryl.
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Which doesn't prove your point
Saying so don't make it so. I'll reiterate the point we've been discussung in this line you claim to be able to refute, along with all the evidence and citations.
Quote:
Originally Posted by me
"CLAIM 1": Alto heard both singers during the ep 7 concert / battle.

- This is what you've been disputing.

Evidence : your own eyes and ears watching episode 7, from about 19:30+

Supporting Evidence : 2 scenes from episode 15 :-

Scene 1 (ep 15, 9:45+) : Grace's lot : (words) "...the separate fold wave mixed with Sheryl's singing intercepted by Brera when we had him scout inside the Vajra Carrier" accompanied by pictures of the ep 7 battle, and inside the carrier. This speech follows a section making it clear the separate fold-wave was Ranka's

Scene 2 (ep 15, 17:45+) Alto : "But I was save too ... By you two singing [...] When I was about bite the dust during the farewell concert battle, I felt like I heard something...your two singing voices" This is also accompanied by images from the ep 7 event.
Now, do you still dispute my "CLAIM 1" or not?
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Grace controlled Ranka who then controlled the Vajra. Once Ranka woke up Grace lost control over the Vajra.
Episode 23, 14 mins in, Ai-kun's eyes turn red, he captures Ranka and hands her over to Grace. There's no way Ranka caused her own capture by Grace here.

And that's not quite true about what happened when Ranka woke up. Grace maintained her control over the network, regardless of Ranka being asleep, but when Ranka and Sheryl sang they competed with Grace's control.
Sorry to be picky, but you left that one open
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Considering the fact that you've been touting that scene around as Alto's sudden break through in terms of character development, makes for why your joke doesn't translate well.
The joke was about the earring. The scene i've been discussing in ep 23 has NOTHING to do with the earring, and I haven't tried at any point to link the earring to that scene.
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It doesn't make it any less of a Dues ex Machina, that's what I said on the subject of Alto suddenly being able to use fold waves.
Does something being Deus-ex-Machina change whether you believed it happened in the story?
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You've actually misread a lot of scenes. Brera's also had said harmonica since he was young, so you might want to abandon ship on your theory of Brera having anything but cybernetic attachments. Those voices share one body, she's not talking to them from across the galaxy, she's talking to them inside her head. It was explained in the third Drama Cd.
Again Brera is a cyborg he has cybernetics attached to his body. It was never stated that Brera had fold quatrz in his body where does it say that Brera had fold quatrz in his body. The blood could have just been because of strain from him breaking free from the programing installed by Grace. Never once did they say that he had fold quartz in his head. Its more of an example of cybernetics eat your soul. Grace controlled Brera like she controlled galaxy.
Maybe she shared her head with those voices, it's not a big deal.
Ok we'll just say Brera communicated by magic then? Despite the facts
1. Grace's implant and control technology used fold-quartz (ep 24)
2. Grace had plans to stick the control implants in as many human's heads as possible, or kill any human who resisted
3. Brera was a cyborg with implants, and under Graces control, a prime candidate for having a control implant
4. Brera able to receive fold waves from both girls in episode 7 (confirmed to be true in ep 15)
5. Brera able to astral communicate with Ranka, same as Ranka/Sheryl in ep 7, and Alto/Ranka/Sheryl in ep 25.
6. Fold-quartz gives instantaneous transmission - perfect for controlling Brera more effectively. Why wouldn't Grace have used the tech on Brera? or for her link with Macross Galaxy for that matter?
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1) They never said that Brera had fold quartz installed his body just cybernetics
They said as much when they revealed Grace's tech for controlling people was based on fold-quartz implants in ep 24.
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2)Grace used Ranka to control the Vajra because she couldn't do so on her own
The scene where Ai-kun turns on Ranka to capture her and gives her to Grace.
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3) Alto does not have the ability to produce fold waves
Several sources state there's fold-quartz inside the v-type bacteria, and when you consider it, that's got to be true. Otherwise fold-quartz is NOT the only substance that can emit the fold-waves, and loses it's significance. So, Ranka and Sheryl are both using fold-quartz in a way already - it amplifies their singing as fold-waves. it's not hard then, to say Alto with fold-quartz could have a fraction of their power.
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4)They also never said that Grace had fold quartz installed in her body either so I have no idea where you got that from
From episode 24, near the start. Plus she monitors fold-waves during the series - you need fold-quartz for that. And she would obviously be using her own zero-time-implant technology, there's more than one Grace (clones) at most times remember?
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5)Fold quartz is a rare commodity in the Macross universe there isn't enough to just go passing around like its the holidays
A few key agents and clones is hardly likely to break the bank. If the stuff was that hard for Grace to acquire, she'd have yanked those earrings out of Sheryl's ears the minute she met her. She is shown to directly control at least one Vajra, and Galaxy / Brera's craft seem to be able to hide from the Vajra pretty well even before Grace got control of the queen. If MacGalaxy can hide near the Vajra main planet without alerting the Vajra to their presence, they can definitely take out a few straggling Vajra for more Fold-Quartz
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6)Grace and Brera as well as most of Galaxy are cyborgs as in they have cybernetics installed in them, yes their minds included (in the Drama CDs Grace erases her memories of Sheryl growing up so that she would be able to exact her revenge).
Pure cybernetics can't interact with fold-waves without the fold-quartz present. This would dilute any reason to go after the fold-quartz in the series.
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7) fold quartz does not give you the ability to emit your own fold waves
How does it work in Grace's implant set-up then ? this was supposed to give human-human direct contact using fold-quartz (creating an 'overmind' like the Vajra)

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