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Old 2010-09-29, 18:16   Link #17781
ErenselTheJester
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Location: In the Meta- World... on Virgillia's bed.
I don't think the Meta- World even exists, in the sense that is merely a symbol for the real world.

Pretty much the question that Ange asked Tohya: "Are you Featherine, or is Featherine you?"

Simply put: "Is the Meta- World the real world, or is the real world the Meta- World?"

If you look at it, the witches are basically authors, who are game masters in their own right. Beatrice isn't a game creator, but a story writer, who wrote two stories that challenged the minds of those who saw them by the distorting the events of an actual incident. Lambdadelta is also a writer who did the same thing. Featherine is a representation of Tohya. Bernkastel is a poet (if I recall). So basically, the Meta- World is simply the real world during moments where authors collaborate and talk to each other.
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Old 2010-09-29, 18:22   Link #17782
Will Wright
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Originally Posted by ErenselTheJester View Post
I don't think the Meta- World even exists, in the sense that is merely a symbol for the real world.

Pretty much the question that Ange asked Tohya: "Are you Featherine, or is Featherine you?"

Simply put: "Is the Meta- World the real world, or is the real world the Meta- World?"

If you look at it, the witches are basically authors, who are game masters in their own right. Beatrice isn't a game creator, but a story writer, who wrote two stories that challenged the minds of those who saw them by the distorting the events of an actual incident. Lambdadelta is also a writer who did the same thing. Featherine is a representation of Tohya. Bernkastel is a poet (if I recall). So basically, the Meta- World is simply the real world during moments where authors collaborate and talk to each other.
Alternative interpretation: The Meta World is a metaphor about Ryuukishi having multiple personalities(hence the multiple writers despite him being the sole writer for Umineko) and his subconscious is writing Umineko like this in order for us to notice and get him help. IT EXPLAINS EVERYTHING.
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Old 2010-09-29, 18:25   Link #17783
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Originally Posted by Will Wright View Post
Alternative interpretation: The Meta World is a metaphor about Ryuukishi having multiple personalities(hence the multiple writers despite him being the sole writer for Umineko) and his subconscious is writing Umineko like this in order for us to notice and get him help. IT EXPLAINS EVERYTHING.
You know, BT was never announced to be dead in red...
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Old 2010-09-29, 19:54   Link #17784
Kylon99
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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
We have a lot of problems there generally. Scenes jumping from Ange/Tohya to ANGE/Featherine, the entire sequence appearing to be recursive fiction-of-fiction-of-fiction, Chick-Beato being brought into Featherine's library seemingly contemporaneously with ANGE reading Featherine the story in which Chick-Beato allegedly appears (which would mean, if in that story she visits Featherine's library, that the scenes about ANGE and Featherine are themselves in the story ANGE is reading).
I thought that this was the answer that we got from EP6, an intentional messing up of the meta-world that seemed at first to be intact through EP1-4. It's like how prior to EP3, how some people would've concluded that the epitaph would never be solved... and then he shows it to you being solved in EP3. 8)

Basically that this is the answer to the idea that the Meta-World was some kind of real world and not just metaphors for something else. Certainly we can still stick with the presentation that the Meta-World is alternate space with its own arbitrary rules...

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Originally Posted by Frisko View Post
Author theory has those problems, but theories that accept the different game boards and meta world as being equally real don't.
I'm not sure what that discussion about ANGE dying is about, but technically the Author Theory says that the gameboard and meta-world are really both fictional accounts of the story from a higher level. So they are kind of 'equal.' Depends on what you mean by 'equal.' Actually, what do you mean? 8)


Ultimately, with the way the Meta-World is messed up, arbitrary rules and what not, it seems more like the scene in which Battler questions Beatrice about why the rose garden wasn't destroyed after her and Virgilia's battle. "Oh, it's magic." The thing about the Author Theory is that it doesn't say "Oh, it's all fiction, it's all useless!" The idea of someone presenting fiction to you is in itself important to the theory. So in the same way, about magic occurring on the game-board, you know it's some kind of agreed-upon lie but it's still important to figure out why they are lying in this way. You don't just say 'magic=lie=ignore.' And so the Author Theory doesn't say, 'Meta-World=fiction=ignore' either. Check out the link in my signature for a summary of it, plus the 'Historical Method theory' which should keep you from saying that.

So the question is, what can the Meta-World tell us? Well one thing I've seen is how the character development has moved all into the Meta-World by EP4ish, or EP5. Only here can Meta-Battler, Beatrice and Bernkastel keep evolving their characters. Same with Erika, Shannon/Kanon (by their multi-episodic knowledge through the Meta-World.)

The Meta-World is the real story that binds all the episodes together. Otherwise we'd have a bunch of independent individual murder mysteries with the same characters. So the question is... who's telling us these stories? And why?
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Old 2010-09-29, 21:53   Link #17785
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Originally Posted by Kylon99 View Post
Ultimately, with the way the Meta-World is messed up, arbitrary rules and what not, it seems more like the scene in which Battler questions Beatrice about why the rose garden wasn't destroyed after her and Virgilia's battle. "Oh, it's magic." The thing about the Author Theory is that it doesn't say "Oh, it's all fiction, it's all useless!" The idea of someone presenting fiction to you is in itself important to the theory. So in the same way, about magic occurring on the game-board, you know it's some kind of agreed-upon lie but it's still important to figure out why they are lying in this way. You don't just say 'magic=lie=ignore.' And so the Author Theory doesn't say, 'Meta-World=fiction=ignore' either. Check out the link in my signature for a summary of it, plus the 'Historical Method theory' which should keep you from saying that.

So the question is, what can the Meta-World tell us? Well one thing I've seen is how the character development has moved all into the Meta-World by EP4ish, or EP5. Only here can Meta-Battler, Beatrice and Bernkastel keep evolving their characters. Same with Erika, Shannon/Kanon (by their multi-episodic knowledge through the Meta-World.)

The Meta-World is the real story that binds all the episodes together. Otherwise we'd have a bunch of independent individual murder mysteries with the same characters. So the question is... who's telling us these stories? And why?
Okay I'll admit author theory does make a lot more sense after reading that. However, just because no force exists that makes events in "reality" follow Knox's rules doesn't mean that the events have to break Knox's rules. Also, most of the evidence for Author Theory only works from an Anti-Fantasy perspective.
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Old 2010-09-29, 22:32   Link #17786
Used Can
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Originally Posted by Will Wright View Post
Alternative interpretation: The Meta World is a metaphor about Ryuukishi having multiple personalities(hence the multiple writers despite him being the sole writer for Umineko) and his subconscious is writing Umineko like this in order for us to notice and get him help. IT EXPLAINS EVERYTHING.
And then Umineko no naku koro ni was R07's "When Rabbit Howls".
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Old 2010-09-29, 23:58   Link #17787
Kylon99
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Originally Posted by Frisko View Post
Okay I'll admit author theory does make a lot more sense after reading that. However, just because no force exists that makes events in "reality" follow Knox's rules doesn't mean that the events have to break Knox's rules. Also, most of the evidence for Author Theory only works from an Anti-Fantasy perspective.
Well, about Knox rules, I'm talking about the story on the game board. Of course the Meta-World doesn't conform to any Knox rules; there wasn't even a murder on that level. Except for maybe EP7, of Beatrice. 8)

Whether you believe the Meta-World is a separate realm or authored fiction, both ways of looking at the Meta-World acknowledges that the game board level is a 'story' that the Author or Game Master presents that must conform to Knox.


I'm also not sure what you mean by evidence being Anti-Fantasy. The evidence I listed are merely events that happened. Some of them are even events that occurred on the game board. Are you saying that the evidence that shows the Meta-World being strange are Anti-Fantasy? I would think that that's not a helpful indicator of what is useful or not useful evidence since anything that suggests that the Meta-World is strange would be declared Anti-Fantasy.

Spoiler for Some evidence listed from the Author Theory:


Anyways, Fantasy or Anti-Fantasy the Author Theory is not. It merely serves to interpret what we've seen of the Gameboard + Meta-World + Written Stories as a whole, without leaving out the ideas of the letters and episodes. Although it says that neither the Gameboard nor the Meta-World is Fantasy, it doesn't say anything about Hachijou or Yasu or whoever else wrote the stories. Maybe they really CAN use magic.

Magical Pretty Hack Writer Hachijou-chan! 8)
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Old 2010-09-30, 00:09   Link #17788
Judoh
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The way that Ryukishi declared he was determined to end Umineko this year, makes me think he might already have an idea on other stories he wants to work on. Like Higanbana no saku yoru ni maybe.

Of course that could have only been to make people wonder if he would end it with episode 7 or 8 too...

EDIT: Personally instead of a sequel to Umineko I'd rather see him release a prequel instead. Mostly because I'm curious about the previous games of a few of the witches. And I'm assuming Higurashi isn't that.
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Old 2010-09-30, 00:43   Link #17789
Ssol
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Originally Posted by Kylon99 View Post
The Meta-World is the real story that binds all the episodes together. Otherwise we'd have a bunch of independent individual murder mysteries with the same characters. So the question is... who's telling us these stories? And why?
So the games are fictions written by Beatrice and Featherine.

I think they are key questions which are similar to the one raised in that promotion for episode 7:
この物語は、本当は誰の意志によって繰り返されているのだろうか。(By whose will is this story is truly repeating?)
Isn’t it an unusual question since it was already implied that Hachijou is really the author? If she really is the author what purpose does that question serve?

If one buys Hachijou’s claims of authorship then there are some serious questions that cannot be answered simply by “she investigated it”. For example, Battler's sin, the promise he could not fulfill, was written into the third episode. Hachijou Tooya probably knew that sin was the cause of the tragedy. How could she have known about this?
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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
You know, BT was never announced to be dead in red...


For anyone who is not familiar with who BT was, there was a thread created after his passing:
http://forums.animesuki.com/showthread.php?t=87739
Please take time to make a post if you haven’t yet.
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Personally instead of a sequel to Umineko I'd rather see him release a prequel instead.
Yes! This is what I want. Then I can finally get my Asumu sprite.
I imagine her to look like that woman from Oliver’s story.
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Old 2010-09-30, 08:32   Link #17790
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If one buys Hachijou’s claims of authorship then there are some serious questions that cannot be answered simply by “she investigated it”. For example, Battler's sin, the promise he could not fulfill, was written into the third episode. Hachijou Tooya probably knew that sin was the cause of the tragedy. How could she have known about this?
There are basically only a few ways "Hachijou" can know all this stuff:
  • Research. However, as you've noted, and most people have pointed out, there's an awful lot of things in her alleged works that seem impossible for anyone to know by researching them.
  • Having been there. However, no one of her apparent description was present on the island as far as we know. Someone would have to not be who they say they are, have developed into a very different person, be extremely well-disguised as Hachijou, or "Hachijou Tohya" is not the woman depicted.
  • Have an extremely intimate connection with a survivor, to the point that otherwise impossible-to-learn information is learned through that person. Eva had no such confidants, so the only possibility would be to gain that information through an as-yet-unconfirmed survivor. Battler would be an obvious candidate here after ep7's strong hint that he isn't dead. That opens up other problems of course.
  • She, or somebody else, made it all up. Would you put that past someone who claims (indirectly) to have invented Erika?
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Old 2010-09-30, 14:31   Link #17791
Smeckledorf
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Originally Posted by Ssol View Post
この物語は、本当は誰の意志によって繰り返されているのだろうか。(By whose will is this story is truly repeating?)
Isn’t it an unusual question since it was already implied that Hachijou is really the author? If she really is the author what purpose does that question serve?
Implied =/= true. I wonder what the question actually means. I feel Battler forced the story to repeat until this episode. So, I would think the question asks who is making it continue? Bern would be my answer.

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Battler would be an obvious candidate here after ep7's strong hint that he isn't dead. That opens up other problems of course.
Would that strong hint be the truth Bern showed?
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Old 2010-09-30, 15:31   Link #17792
Ssol
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  • Have an extremely intimate connection with a survivor, to the point that otherwise impossible-to-learn information is learned through that person. Eva had no such confidants, so the only possibility would be to gain that information through an as-yet-unconfirmed survivor. Battler would be an obvious candidate here after ep7's strong hint that he isn't dead. That opens up other problems of course.
The possibility of Battler being a survivor is quite interesting.

Most likely, Battler will be revived by Ange in this episode. We may have already been given this clue.
Spoiler for Battler’s Revival:

Anyways, here’s an interesting image I found on another forum:
Spoiler for Yasu:
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Old 2010-09-30, 16:24   Link #17793
Renall
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Would that strong hint be the truth Bern showed?
Not so much the truth as the absence of resolution. It's actually nothing new. Battler is simply assumed to disappear, as if into a plot hole. It's just more obvious in ep7's Tea Party because we don't immediately end the story with him.

There is also the possibility that, whatever the "truth value" of Bern's truth, she could only show living/dying of people who actually did die in some fashion, hence Eva and Battler not being shown to die and no apparent reconciliation of the Kanon/Shannon issue.

In short, even if Bern's "truth" isn't all that true, the mere fact that Battler not only doesn't die but seems to just vanish outright is a strong narrative indicator that he's not dead in the future. If the Meta-World is what several theories suggest it is, this is immediately obvious on an even greater level.

And simple logic dictates that if Battler is alive in the future, he lived through the incident somehow.
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Old 2010-09-30, 16:29   Link #17794
Smeckledorf
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Not so much the truth as the absence of resolution. It's actually nothing new. Battler is simply assumed to disappear, as if into a plot hole. It's just more obvious in ep7's Tea Party because we don't immediately end the story with him.

There is also the possibility that, whatever the "truth value" of Bern's truth, she could only show living/dying of people who actually did die in some fashion, hence Eva and Battler not being shown to die and no apparent reconciliation of the Kanon/Shannon issue.

In short, even if Bern's "truth" isn't all that true, the mere fact that Battler not only doesn't die but seems to just vanish outright is a strong narrative indicator that he's not dead in the future. If the Meta-World is what several theories suggest it is, this is immediately obvious on an even greater level.

And simple logic dictates that if Battler is alive in the future, he lived through the incident somehow.
Possibly, but what reason would he have to hide? If he was hiding then there must be a reason to hide and there is only two reasons I can think of for him to hide.
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Old 2010-09-30, 16:34   Link #17795
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Possibly, but what reason would he have to hide? If he was hiding then there must be a reason to hide and there is only two reasons I can think of for him to hide.
I can think of a few, but they require considerable grasping at straws short of "convenient amnesia," which I hope isn't the case because it's just dumb. The question is whether he would always return to Ange if he could. We have assumed, for quite some time, that the answer is yes, he would under any circumstances if he were able. Then we'd conclude there's no reason he wouldn't be able and dismiss it.

However, it is possible to imagine a few scenarios in which Battler is able, but unwilling. The killer still being alive, or someone who believes that he was the killer, would be two obvious ones. Fringe concepts like Beatrice-4 would be less obvious ones.

There is also the slim prospect that Fiction-Ange is misrepresented and Ange-Prime knows, but is herself concealing, that Battler is alive.
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Old 2010-09-30, 16:41   Link #17796
Smeckledorf
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I can think of a few, but they require considerable grasping at straws short of "convenient amnesia," which I hope isn't the case because it's just dumb. The question is whether he would always return to Ange if he could. We have assumed, for quite some time, that the answer is yes, he would under any circumstances if he were able. Then we'd conclude there's no reason he wouldn't be able and dismiss it.

However, it is possible to imagine a few scenarios in which Battler is able, but unwilling. The killer still being alive, or someone who believes that he was the killer, would be two obvious ones. Fringe concepts like Beatrice-4 would be less obvious ones.

There is also the slim prospect that Fiction-Ange is misrepresented and Ange-Prime knows, but is herself concealing, that Battler is alive.
Amnesia sure is 'convenient' but possible. I was thinking more along the lines of two different possibilities. First, Battler grew to understand Beatrice in the meta-world, suppose Battler understood the murderess in the real world. He could be concealing her to protect her. My second thought is someone else survived, someone Battler would not want to find him.
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Old 2010-09-30, 18:04   Link #17797
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Well, there are plenty of possibilities if we start... USING OBVIOUS THEORIES

- Beatrice actually captured Battler and kept him as prisoner. Yeah... too obvious.
- Beatrice captured Battler, and he grew to love her through a form of Stockholm Syndrome. Seems to fit well, but again...
- Beatrice rescued Battler, but Battler is convinced she is the culprit. Eventually, he realises the truth about her, but feels too ashamed to go back to Ange.
- Kyrie was the killer, and Battler couldn't face telling Ange this (or lying to her). Uh... yeah. Probably not happening.
- Battler escaped and fled from the culprit, but in all the excitement of the incident, forgot about Ange (hey, everyone's done it).
- Battler thinks Eva was the culprit, and feels unwilling to approach Ange as long as Eva is her guardian.
- There were no murders. The explosion was the culmination of some insurance or death faking idea gone horribly wrong, and Beatrice was in fact the one who tried to warn them and (yeah, I'm feeling sick already).

Whatever. The basic idea I'm driving at is that the meta-world could sortof reflects the events after the incident.
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Old 2010-10-01, 03:46   Link #17798
Judoh
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Isn't it possible Battler intended to meet Ange, but wasn't able to because Eva sent her to the Lucia academy? I mean they did state in the text that that school is sometimes used as a way to hide unwanted kids. Why not use it to keep her away from Battler? And if you've read the when they cry series that place is often shown to be like a very cultured prison. Ange had her "Role call" and Shion had to pass security cameras to escape for example. It's not exactly easy for Battler to meet her during those school years.

Last edited by Judoh; 2010-10-01 at 04:52.
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Old 2010-10-01, 07:29   Link #17799
alviam099
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Yeah As far as I remember Lucia Academy is a well guarded place .. adding that if Eva putted some bodyguard for Ange when she sent her there .. It's really difficult to begin with oh graah I'm in a logic error hahaha

Quote:
- Beatrice rescued Battler, but Battler is convinced she is the culprit. Eventually, he realises the truth about her, but feels too ashamed to go back to Ange.
Why would he ashamed in the first place ?? Is it because he probably found out that Kyrie is the culprit then that one would fit too.. however if EP7's tea party is true ,, Battler shouldn't have interfered to begin with so something must be a lie and the truth at the same time or all of them is a lie but it's impossible for all of them to be a lie
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Old 2010-10-01, 08:17   Link #17800
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Isn't it possible Battler intended to meet Ange, but wasn't able to because Eva sent her to the Lucia academy? I mean they did state in the text that that school is sometimes used as a way to hide unwanted kids. Why not use it to keep her away from Battler? And if you've read the when they cry series that place is often shown to be like a very cultured prison. Ange had her "Role call" and Shion had to pass security cameras to escape for example. It's not exactly easy for Battler to meet her during those school years.
The issue is more that as soon as Eva is dead and Ange is on her own, Battler has no reason to continue staying away if he is willing to make contact (as the argument would be he was previously unable). Even if he's Amakusa, he has every opportunity to tell her he is when they're together on the run. Unless, that is, Amakusa is also keeping him from getting to her.
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