AnimeSuki Forums

Register Forum Rules FAQ Members List Social Groups Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   AnimeSuki Forum > Anime Discussion > Older Series > Retired > Umineko

Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 2010-10-01, 15:59   Link #17821
Ssol
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
One thing I forgot to mention (and I can't believe Renall hasn't pointed it out yet) is that Bernkastel was the game master for episode 7. In order words, be critical of what you read.

She claims that she was not the game master for the tea party and that the events of the tea party were the real world.
__________________
[...]
Ssol is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-10-01, 16:04   Link #17822
rogerpepitone
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Send a message via Yahoo to rogerpepitone
Quote:
Originally Posted by kamuinoyume View Post
I'll admit I might have judged Asumu and Rudolf's relationship somewhat harshly, but you'll have to excuse me for saying that NO woman would ever want to be "second best!" Especially if you consider the Kyrie from the forth game, she'd hardly give up on victory and her own son for anything.
Kyrie didn't like it, but for 12 years she did put up with being second place. And she didn't give up her son; she didn't know Battler was her son.

As for why I think Krauss knew or guessed:
1) Rudolf had some sort of secret that he was unsure whether or not to reveal in the "I'll probably be killed tonight" scene. The truth about Battler's parentage is the only likely secret.
2) Remember the scene in Episode 1 when the siblings are trying to shake down Krauss? Krauss is good at learning secrets and waiting for the best time to use them.

a) How did Rudolf learn about Battler's parentage?
b) Why didn't Rudolf reveal that years ago?
c) Why was he going to reveal it that night?

Try answering these questions under the assumptions that "the switch was accidental", "Asumu did it without Rudolf's knowledge", and "Rudolf was knowingly involved in the switch".

If Krauss managed to convince Kyrie of everything, I think it quite likely that Kyrie would file for divorce, get custody of Ange, break up the business; possibly Battler would also leave him. Losing everything could, metaphorically, be "getting killed tonight". Rudolf might be weighing the possibilities "Do I gamble that Krauss has nothing, or on my ability to talk things out now?"


And the "Asumu is Ange's mother" idea strikes me as ridiculous. Could Asumu go through 9 months of pregnancy without Battler noticing?
rogerpepitone is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-10-01, 16:10   Link #17823
Judoh
Mystery buff
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Gone Fishin!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
The issue is more that as soon as Eva is dead and Ange is on her own, Battler has no reason to continue staying away if he is willing to make contact (as the argument would be he was previously unable). Even if he's Amakusa, he has every opportunity to tell her he is when they're together on the run. Unless, that is, Amakusa is also keeping him from getting to her.
And Ange's motivation to figure out the Rokkenjima mystery is to find out who took away her Brother and her parents. That motive assumes her brother is in fact dead if he's not she has no reason to pursue it. It's not just if Battler told her. If anyone told her her brother was really alive she wouldn't have the will to think about it anymore.

He may have wanted to tell her, but couldn't because he wanted her to find out the truth when he realized she was looking into it. Another issue here is if Battler is really Amakusa did he kill Ange or not?
Judoh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-10-01, 16:22   Link #17824
kamuinoyume
OMAE WO SHINJIRU!
 
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Europe - Romania - Dolj - Craiova
Quote:
Originally Posted by rogerpepitone View Post

As for why I think Krauss knew or guessed:
1) Rudolf had some sort of secret that he was unsure whether or not to reveal in the "I'll probably be killed tonight" scene. The truth about Battler's parentage is the only likely secret.
2) Remember the scene in Episode 1 when the siblings are trying to shake down Krauss? Krauss is good at learning secrets and waiting for the best time to use them.

a) How did Rudolf learn about Battler's parentage?
b) Why didn't Rudolf reveal that years ago?
c) Why was he going to reveal it that night?

Try answering these questions under the assumptions that "the switch was accidental", "Asumu did it without Rudolf's knowledge", and "Rudolf was knowingly involved in the switch".

If Krauss managed to convince Kyrie of everything, I think it quite likely that Kyrie would file for divorce, get custody of Ange, break up the business; possibly Battler would also leave him. Losing everything could, metaphorically, be "getting killed tonight". Rudolf might be weighing the possibilities "Do I gamble that Krauss has nothing, or on my ability to talk things out now?"


And the "Asumu is Ange's mother" idea strikes me as ridiculous. Could Asumu go through 9 months of pregnancy without Battler noticing?
What if Krauss was the one who did the switch? After all, I did theorize that one of the siblings might have been involved (though I was leaning more towards Eva - no real basis, just thought it would be something she'd do). I'm guessing that episode 7 didn't tell us much more than Battler is Kyrie's son, so we don't really have much on what to go by.
__________________
One World One Dream
kamuinoyume is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-10-01, 16:30   Link #17825
rogerpepitone
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Send a message via Yahoo to rogerpepitone
As I said before, if Krauss, Eva, Kasumi, Kinzo, or most anybody were behind the switch, please explain the exact scheduling.

Did they somehow anticipate that Asumu would have a stillbirth and Kyrie would carry hers to term? If not, how did they manage to learn about it and carry everything out during the interval?
rogerpepitone is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-10-01, 16:34   Link #17826
Dlanor .A. Nox
The Death!
 
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Purgatorio
Spoiler for First random thought:


Anyways onto my second thought. The lies, whatever Episode it always happens without fail. Kanon's fake death, Rosa's "conversation" with Kinzo, The Cigarettes in Eva's room, and the majority of Episode 4. What do they exactly gain by lying?

Spoiler for Episode 1-Kanon and Nanjo:


Spoiler for Episode 2-Rosa:


Spoiler for Episode 2:


Spoiler for Episode 3-The cigarette:


Spoiler for Episode 3-Eva's only seen murder:


Spoiler for Episode 4 Jessica's Narration:

Spoiler for Episode 4-Kyrie's Narration:


Spoiler for The Liar's Fates:


I'm thinking Beatrice is like a genie. Sure she gives red truths but sometimes those reds are horribly misleading.

Spoiler for Red Truth of the Genie:


-whew-

That took awhile...as you can see I avoided using my regular SPEECH. If you think I'm that crazy then guess AGAIN. This is similar to my Method X theory but it's different in the fact that the lie is the lock not the lock ITSELF. If there are any flaws please let me KNOW.
__________________
http://forums.animesuki.com/images/as.icon/signaturepics/sigpic100082_1.gif
Dlanor .A. Nox is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-10-01, 16:40   Link #17827
kamuinoyume
OMAE WO SHINJIRU!
 
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Europe - Romania - Dolj - Craiova
Quote:
Originally Posted by rogerpepitone View Post
As I said before, if Krauss, Eva, Kasumi, Kinzo, or most anybody were behind the switch, please explain the exact scheduling.

Did they somehow anticipate that Asumu would have a stillbirth and Kyrie would carry hers to term? If not, how did they manage to learn about it and carry everything out during the interval?
I already answered this to begin with, when I speculated that the two might have been brought at Nanjo's hospital and he might have done the switch for whatever member of the Ushiromiya.
__________________
One World One Dream
kamuinoyume is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-10-01, 16:54   Link #17828
Renall
BUY MY BOOK!!!
 
 
Join Date: May 2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
He may have wanted to tell her, but couldn't because he wanted her to find out the truth when he realized she was looking into it. Another issue here is if Battler is really Amakusa did he kill Ange or not?
If Battler is Amakusa, almost certainly not. Even if Amakusa isn't Battler, almost certainly not. However, it is possible Kasumi managed to kill her before Amakusa could kill Kasumi.

Or maybe none of that happened quite that way at all. We may yet see come ep8.

Dlanor: Actually even if we accept that Eva shot Battler in ep3 there's no proof he died from that or indeed died in any particular episode. Not that it matters, necessarily.

But then Eva herself survived being shot in the ep7 Tea Party, but the behavior of the guns in ep7 was "realistic." In the fictions where the genre is murder mystery, guns probably don't fail to hit their lethal marks like that. Either way, it doesn't strike me as relevant because ep3 is almost certainly not quite accurate.
__________________
Redaction of the Golden Witch
I submit that a murder was committed in 1996.
This murder was a "copycat" crime inspired by our tales of 1986.
This story is a redacted confession.

Blog (VN DL) - YouTube Playlists
Battler Solves The Logic Error
Renall is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-10-01, 18:25   Link #17829
estdesoda
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Er, anyone made the speculation that Battler was already dead, 6 years ago, in 1980?

This is one solution that I came up with after finished reading Episode 7. I got a lengthy theory for it, but just wonder if anyone had that idea already.
estdesoda is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-10-01, 18:39   Link #17830
Renall
BUY MY BOOK!!!
 
 
Join Date: May 2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by estdesoda View Post
Er, anyone made the speculation that Battler was already dead, 6 years ago, in 1980?

This is one solution that I came up with after finished reading Episode 7. I got a lengthy theory for it, but just wonder if anyone had that idea already.
By all means, go right ahead. I've considered it but couldn't find any particularly great reason for it to work, but if you think you've got something...
__________________
Redaction of the Golden Witch
I submit that a murder was committed in 1996.
This murder was a "copycat" crime inspired by our tales of 1986.
This story is a redacted confession.

Blog (VN DL) - YouTube Playlists
Battler Solves The Logic Error
Renall is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-10-01, 19:07   Link #17831
rogerpepitone
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Send a message via Yahoo to rogerpepitone
Quote:
Originally Posted by kamuinoyume View Post
I already answered this to begin with, when I speculated that the two might have been brought at Nanjo's hospital and he might have done the switch for whatever member of the Ushiromiya.
Is there any evidence that Battler was born at Nanjo's hospital? (Wouldn't Rudolf mention something along the lines of "Nanjo delivered you" when introducing them?)

Is there any evidence that anybody else might have been at the hospital?

Why would Krauss or Eva WANT to switch the babies?

What reason would they have for being at the clinic BEFORE learning about Asumu's stillbirth?
rogerpepitone is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-10-01, 19:29   Link #17832
LyricalAura
Dea ex Kakera
 
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Sea of Fragments
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ssol View Post
LyricalAura, you didn't address my last comment though.

How does Battler (after overcoming the obstacle of always viewing his family positively) after leaning the truth say that no one is bad to Ange? If you say that he's just comforting her after the nightmare Bernkastel showed to her, then what about how Battler behaved with everyone present in the episode 6 tea party? Wouldn't it be strange if one of them turns out to be the culprit?
I don't disagree with that. What I disagree with is the idea that "Rudolf loved Kyrie, so he must not have loved Asumu" is somehow valid reasoning. All evidence we have says that he loved both of them.

For that matter, why does the baby switch even have to be deliberate? Two babies with the same father were delivered in the same hospital on the same day. Doesn't that immediately suggest the possibility of a simple hospital error? If Rudolf found out about it after the fact, there's no way he could speak up. What would he say to Asumu? "Sorry dear, there was a mistake. Your baby is actually dead, we have to give this one back to Kyrie"?
__________________
"Something has fallen on us that falls very seldom on men; perhaps the worst thing that can fall on them. We have found the truth; and the truth makes no sense."
LyricalAura is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-10-01, 20:10   Link #17833
estdesoda
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Ok, let me type...I have not much of participation of umineko in English before, so pardon me if some of my translations of terms and names look different.

First of all, I am using the Author Theory to explain what each Episodes are. I think the Culprit (or Maria) wrote Episode 1 and 2, and Tooya (八城十八) and/or other writers wrote Episode 3~6.

Ok, then let's start my speculation.

In 1980, Kyrie (霧江) killed both Asumu (明日夢) and Battler (戦人). She did it out of jealousy, hatred and love for Rudolf (留弗夫). After Kyrie did her murder, Rudolf decided help her conceal the murder and marry her. Possible reasons of Rudolf doing this, might be because Rudolf felt that he was responsible for Kyrie becoming a murderer (Kyrie won't kill Asumu if Rudolf had married Kyrie), and maybe also because Kyrie was pregnant with Ange (縁寿) at that time.

OK. Now Battler is dead, and Rudolf wants to concealing this fact.

Rudolf and Kyrie then decided to tell everyone that Asumu died, and Battler left the family out of anger. Telling everyone that Asumu and Battler are both dead would make Kyrie look too suspicious, I suppose. So, for 6 years continuously, Rudolf and Kyrie prepares fake letter and keeps on telling everyone that Battler is alive, but just full with anger and not wanting to go back home.

Unfortunately for them, they had no clue that Battler made a promise with Shanon (紗音) = Yasu (ヤス...yeah, I think they are the same person), so they had prepared no letter for poor Shanon. This got Shanon to be curious about how Battler actually is, and send people out (probably Genji (源次)) to make contact with Battler, but Genji came back, and tell Shanon that Battler actually is dead.

Shanon was extremly sad about this. However, before the meeting in 1986, she (as a maid on the island) heard the news that Battler is coming back. She was surprised - well, she knew that Battler was dead!So who exactly is the Battler, who came on 1986?That makes the 1986 Battler a fake, deliberately prepared by Rudolf and Kyrie.

Shanon soon figured out that the 1986 Battler was a fake. She then decides to do two things: 1. Write (or have Maria write) Episode 1 and 2, and send them out by wine bottle. 2. Make sure that nobody leaves the island alive.

Why did Shanon do this? The answer is, to make Battler live eternally, in people's mind, as the hero of the Rukujima Mystery, who eternally fights with Beatrice the golden witch. The entire event of Rukujima, is Shanon's way of making everyone remember Battler forever. Eva got out the island alive in the story of Episode 3 and 7, but things are fine as she decided to ot say anything.

Who is Meta-Battler, you may ask? Well, I think Meta-Battler is an imaginary character created by Shanon, Eva, and Ange together. Shanon created Meta-Battler by writing Episode 1 and 2, Eva helped in the creation by not breaking Shanon's lie, and Ange just firmly hopes that her brother is alive and fighting with the witch like a big hero. Thus, these 3 all have the name of BEATRIX.

Now, let's check this speculation with Reds.

犯人は物語当初の登場人物以外を禁ず。
The fake Battler in 1986 isn't the Culprit. He is a fake, but not the Culprit.

戦人くんは犯人ではありませんよ。
戦人くんは誰も殺してはいません。
Yeah, Battler (fake or not) didn't kill anybody. No problem.

提示されない手掛かりでの解決を禁ず。
手掛かりなき他の登場人物への変装を禁ず。
Episode 4 hinted that there was something fishy about Battler's idendity.

俺の名は右代宮戦人。
Well, Meta-Battler said this, and his creaters (Shanon, Eva, Ange) did name him Battler.

妾は黄金の魔女、ベアトリーチェ。
そして右代宮金蔵の孫、右代宮戦人と戦うためにこのゲームを開催した。
Yeah, Beatrix created the entrie Umineko story for the sake of Battler. No problem.

右代宮戦人の母は、右代宮明日夢である。
Yep. The mother of the real Battler is Asumu.

俺の名は右代宮戦人だ。
Meta-Battler said this, and yes he was named by his creater as Battler.

右代宮戦人は、右代宮明日夢から生まれた。
Yep. The real Battler was born from Asumu. No problem.

俺は右代宮戦人だ…!
Meta-Battler said this, and yes his name is Battler.

俺は右代宮明日夢から、
Meta-Battler said this, but Asumu didn't give him birth. Shanon did.

そなたは、右代宮明日夢の息子ではない。
This is said by Beatrix to Meta-Battler, and yes Meta-Battler isn't Asumu's son.

右代宮戦人は右代宮明日夢の息子ではないわ。
Remember the previous red of 右代宮戦人の母は、右代宮明日夢である。 ? For these two reds to both be true, I can only guess that there are two Battlers, one has Asumu as the mother, but not the other one.

………縁寿は、……俺の妹だ。
Meta-Battler said this, and Ange did create him as the heroic big brother who fights with the evil witch on island, so yes Ange is Meta-Battler's little sister.

………右代宮戦人。今から私が、あなたを殺します。
Beatrix said this to Meta-Battler. I explain this as Beatrix decalring that she is going to make another Episode of story, that has Battler failed to defeat the evil golden witch, and not coming back from the island.

………そしてたった今。この島にはあなた以外誰もいません。この島で生きているのは、あなただけです。島の 外の存在は一切干渉できません。
This red was spoken in the Meta-world. I say that this means that, in this story, created by Beatrix (or the author of EP 4), has progressed to the stage that every other characters of the story on island have died. Nobody else that's not in the story (not on the island) could interfere with him.

………この島にあなたはたった一人。そしてもちろん、私はあなたではない。なのに私は今、ここにいて、これ からあなたを殺します。
The EP4 story had progressed to the stage in which everyone else other than Battler had died. Of course, Beatrix (the writer) isn't the same as Battler, and Beatrix (the writer), now, is going to kill Battler again, by writing out the ending of "Battler did not come back from island" again.

このゲームに、ハッピーエンドは与えない。
The real Battler was dead, so there is no happy ending.

「幻は、幻に。約束された死神は、魔女の意思を問わずに、物語に幕を下ろす。」
Battler is dead. This truth doesn't change regardless of how the witch thinks or hopes, and so every story must say "Battler did not come back from the island".

(戦人に対し)そなたは無能だ!
This was said by Beatrix to Meta-Battler. Meta-Battler is powerless because he can't win (he was written, or created to fight enternally, not to win).

そなたは妾の一番のお気に入りの家具にしてやるよ。
そなたを愛して愛して、灰になるまで妾の玩具にしてやるよ…。
This was said by Beatrix to Meta-Battler, and yes Meta-Battler, accoring to my theory, IS the most beloved toy of the golden witch.

妾は約束は守る。
Shanon had created the umineko story, so that the promise between the real Battler and Shanon could have been kept.

ベアトは、あなたに解いて欲しいと願って、解けるようにこのゲームを、……この物語の謎を生み 出しました。
Yep. Beatrix made the game so that Meta-Battler could try to solve it.

これまでのあなたは探偵デシタ!
Dlanor (ドラノール) said this to Meta-Battler. Yeah, Meta-Battler was a dectective previously.

So, in a way, I am saying that there are 3 Battlers.

Battler No.1:Born by Asumu, killed by Kyrie.

Battler No.2:Meta-Battler, created by Beatrix.

Battler No.3:A fake, prepared by Kyrie and Rudolf to go on the island in 1986.
The reds in Episode 3 about Battler refers to him, this fake guy. He can be called as Battler, because the true Battler's father had decided to make him Battler.

What does this speculation do?

It answers the motivation of Yasu. It explains where このゲームに、ハッピーエンドは与えない came from. It shows how Battler was both born from Asumu and not born from Asumu. It also explains why Battler seems to have "forgot" his promise with Shanon - well, dead people can hardly keep their promises.

Er, why did Rudolf and Kyrie prepared a fake?

Well..maybe Kinzo was angry that Battler leaving the family, and made some huge cut to the amount of money that Rudolf could inherit. Rufold and Kyrie did this, to hire a fake Battler to please Kinzo, so that they can get more money.
estdesoda is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-10-01, 20:53   Link #17834
Marion
The Great Dine
 
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
I don't like that theory mainly because at this point in the game it's too big of a deus ex machina to throw. The idea of hiring a fake Battler doesn't make sense because

1) Kyrie and Rudolf think Kinzo is already dead. So why hire a fake to possibly please Kinzo when they think this?
2) We see a lot of Battler's inner thinking and there are detailed thoughts of things Kyrie and Rudolf likely wouldn't have knowledge of.
3) In EP 6 Kyrie mad no mention of wanting to kill Battler- her intent was only to murder Asumu and no one else. I doubt Rudolf realizes she wanted to kill Asumu, or else he would probably think twice about marrying her.

Furthermore your speculation is only based on red truths. The red text provides concrete details about the murders and so forth, but they do not provide anything on who the character is as a whole being. White text is essential to the 'Why Do It' because there isn't any red regarding motivations.

Besides it's clear in EP 7 that Yasu/Shannon/Whatever you wanna call her is just insane. She literally decides to blow up the island because Battler forgot about the promise. It's not that he didn't keep it, it's that he didn't remember it at all. This isn't something a person who is of sane mind would do. And yes I know some people are willing to forgive her, because if Bern is actually telling the truth about the true events (and that's a big 'What If'), then Yasu didn't kill anyone. Personally I don't because she still had the intent to blow everyone up if no one solved the epitaph that night, but that's an opinion.
__________________

Sig by nocco
Marion is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-10-01, 21:14   Link #17835
Renall
BUY MY BOOK!!!
 
 
Join Date: May 2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marion View Post
Furthermore your speculation is only based on red truths. The red text provides concrete details about the murders and so forth, but they do not provide anything on who the character is as a whole being. White text is essential to the 'Why Do It' because there isn't any red regarding motivations.
In fairness, it does sort of work with the red, but then so does Kinzotrice and Battlertrice.

And Rosa states outright this idea in ep2 when she's chasing Battler off.
Quote:
Besides it's clear in EP 7 that Yasu/Shannon/Whatever you wanna call her is just insane. She literally decides to blow up the island because Battler forgot about the promise. It's not that he didn't keep it, it's that he didn't remember it at all. This isn't something a person who is of sane mind would do. And yes I know some people are willing to forgive her, because if Bern is actually telling the truth about the true events (and that's a big 'What If'), then Yasu didn't kill anyone. Personally I don't because she still had the intent to blow everyone up if no one solved the epitaph that night, but that's an opinion.
It's completely opinion as to whether Yasu is insane. Her personality leading up to the Beatrice thing is decidedly possible to read as entirely sane. And everything after could be manipulated for mudslinging purposes. Remember, it's in certain people's interests to make Beatrice look as uncharitably-motivated as possible.

My opinion is that if you can't plausibly connect Yasu's primary characterization with an individual who would commit a mass murder, then that simply isn't what she was actually intending (or the characterization is a lie). And I don't really think the Yasu stuff makes Beatrice more plausible as a culprit. If anything, it makes it much, much less so.
__________________
Redaction of the Golden Witch
I submit that a murder was committed in 1996.
This murder was a "copycat" crime inspired by our tales of 1986.
This story is a redacted confession.

Blog (VN DL) - YouTube Playlists
Battler Solves The Logic Error
Renall is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-10-01, 21:41   Link #17836
Ssol
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by LyricalAura View Post
I don't disagree with that. What I disagree with is the idea that "Rudolf loved Kyrie, so he must not have loved Asumu" is somehow valid reasoning. All evidence we have says that he loved both of them.
Yea, that is not valid reasoning but I never wrote that. My opinion is that Rudolf loved Asumu and Kyrie. However, Asumu moved quicker than Kyrie and became engaged with Rudolf when they both became pregnant. Kyrie admitted that was her mistake. Rudolf probably would have chosen Kyrie over Asumu but Asumu took advantage of the situation first.

Your claim:
"All evidence we have says that he loved both of them."

Can you clarify this? Are you saying that no evidence can be found in this game to suggest that Rudolf did not love Asumu?
Quote:
Originally Posted by LyricalAura View Post
For that matter, why does the baby switch even have to be deliberate? Two babies with the same father were delivered in the same hospital on the same day. Doesn't that immediately suggest the possibility of a simple hospital error? If Rudolf found out about it after the fact, there's no way he could speak up. What would he say to Asumu? "Sorry dear, there was a mistake. Your baby is actually dead, we have to give this one back to Kyrie"?
The baby swap does not have to be deliberate. It could have been a hospital error as you suggest. Is that what you believe happened?
__________________
[...]
Ssol is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-10-01, 22:03   Link #17837
estdesoda
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marion View Post
I don't like that theory mainly because at this point in the game it's too big of a deus ex machina to throw. The idea of hiring a fake Battler doesn't make sense because

1) Kyrie and Rudolf think Kinzo is already dead. So why hire a fake to possibly please Kinzo when they think this?
Do you mind to remind me where in the game that they said that Kyrie and Rudolf thinks that Kinzo is dead? Yeah, that would definitly give my theory trouble.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marion View Post
2) We see a lot of Battler's inner thinking and there are detailed thoughts of things Kyrie and Rudolf likely wouldn't have knowledge of.
I have claim that the Umineko Episodes were written by Beatrix and other authors (like Tooya). They can write up the "Battler's inner thinking" as much as they want, and it doesn't need to match with what the fake Battler was actually thinking, as nobody alive (maybe expect Eva, who doesn't speak) would know the difference.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marion View Post
3) In EP 6 Kyrie mad no mention of wanting to kill Battler- her intent was only to murder Asumu and no one else. I doubt Rudolf realizes she wanted to kill Asumu, or else he would probably think twice about marrying her.
Well, why would Kyrie NOT want to murder Battler? I have always found it odd that Kyrie appears to be in a good term with Battler, despite of her hatred to Asumu.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marion View Post
Furthermore your speculation is only based on red truths. The red text provides concrete details about the murders and so forth, but they do not provide anything on who the character is as a whole being. White text is essential to the 'Why Do It' because there isn't any red regarding motivations.
Want some reds regarding motivation?

……恐怖を味わわせるのが目的ではありません。
誰かに復讐するためのものでもありません。
…ベアトは、快楽目的で殺人を行なっていることはありません。

If Yasu blew up Battler because Battler forgot her, how come that doesn't count as revenge?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marion View Post
Besides it's clear in EP 7 that Yasu/Shannon/Whatever you wanna call her is just insane. She literally decides to blow up the island because Battler forgot about the promise. It's not that he didn't keep it, it's that he didn't remember it at all.
and why did Battler just forget it? Why, if he was just forgetful, could he not just recall his promise, win back Shanon's heart, and go live happily after?

Nope, that kind of thing will never happen, as promised in red:

このゲームに、ハッピーエンドは与えない。

and my theory gives a reason for why it would never happen.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marion View Post
This isn't something a person who is of sane mind would do. And yes I know some people are willing to forgive her, because if Bern is actually telling the truth about the true events (and that's a big 'What If'), then Yasu didn't kill anyone. Personally I don't because she still had the intent to blow everyone up if no one solved the epitaph that night, but that's an opinion.
Umm, yeah I agree that Yasu look insane, and was probably willing to kill people.
estdesoda is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-10-01, 22:27   Link #17838
Marion
The Great Dine
 
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Spoiler for reply to estdesoda:
__________________

Sig by nocco
Marion is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-10-01, 23:34   Link #17839
estdesoda
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Spoiler for reply to Marion:
estdesoda is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-10-02, 12:31   Link #17840
LyricalAura
Dea ex Kakera
 
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Sea of Fragments
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ssol View Post
Yea, that is not valid reasoning but I never wrote that. My opinion is that Rudolf loved Asumu and Kyrie. However, Asumu moved quicker than Kyrie and became engaged with Rudolf when they both became pregnant. Kyrie admitted that was her mistake. Rudolf probably would have chosen Kyrie over Asumu but Asumu took advantage of the situation first.

Your claim:
"All evidence we have says that he loved both of them."

Can you clarify this? Are you saying that no evidence can be found in this game to suggest that Rudolf did not love Asumu?
I think there is ambiguous evidence that you could interpret as suggesting that, but you could equally interpret it as supporting other, more solid evidence that Rudolf did love her. Basically it's like this:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Frederica Bernkastel
Many things were found from his room.
From those evidences, it is possible to deduce that I am loved by you.

Many things were found from my room.
From those evidences, it is possible to deduce that I also love you.

Nothing was found from her room.
However, I can’t deny the existence of an undiscovered evidence X of unfaithfulness.

--Frederica Bernkastel
Without a flashback, all we have to go on is accounts of Rudolf's actions toward Asumu. There's Kyrie's account of their college days, where Rudolf and Asumu seemed to grow very close, and there's Battler's account of six years ago suggesting that Rudolf hooking up with Kyrie came as a surprise (in other words, there was no obvious reason beforehand to think he was unhappy with Asumu).

We do also have ambiguous data, such as the quick marriage to Kyrie and the removal of Asumu's photos. You can interpret it favorably in light of the other evidence: he was devastated by Asumu's death and ran to his closest friend/lover for comfort, and it hurt too much to keep seeing her photos lying around. Or, since Rudolf's thoughts are a cat box, you can claim that he had secret motivation X which caused him to pretend to love Asumu, and then when she died he immediately tossed her aside and ran to his real lover.

However, I think the story is practically shouting at this point that you shouldn't assume the worst of people in the absence of data. What is there to make that second line of reasoning more attractive? Rampant speculation about the baby swap, which is also inside a cat box?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ssol View Post
The baby swap does not have to be deliberate. It could have been a hospital error as you suggest. Is that what you believe happened?
Yes, I think it's the least malicious interpretation that can be imposed, given what we know. There doesn't seem to be anything linking it to Rokkenjima, so I don't feel a need to cook up some complicated scheme involving multiple people to explain it. Sometimes tragic things happen that are just accidents.
__________________
"Something has fallen on us that falls very seldom on men; perhaps the worst thing that can fall on them. We have found the truth; and the truth makes no sense."
LyricalAura is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 03:35.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
We use Silk.