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Old 2010-10-03, 23:10   Link #61
Yuno
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It is really odd because when I heard of Obama championing a neutral and free internet I felt quite happy. This secret alliance/coalition is frightening. While I immediately focus on Anime (essentially my small world) there is a lot I worry about. My mother lives in China and she is unable to see a lot of the pages and links I send her because they are on blacklists. They also filter content a lot and often take a page down only to put it up- then take it down again on a whim.

Something as free and available as the internet should never be regulated... I share Synaesthetic's sentiment in that I am really angry. It's a mixture of hysterical laughter seeded with annoyance. Because of black lists with the internet my mother can't upload or see videos I send her. She can't even find out information about what the government is doing that she should be warned about. She is completely in the dark in regards to many things.

If we make what is happening in China possible in other countries it's basically dumping on the whole proud talks of "globe village" and that we were evolving to a more "free social international society" governments can easily just present us with whatever they want barring us from figuring out what is really going on. Getting the "other side" of a debate could be come more difficult with governmental control over the internet.
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Old 2010-10-04, 00:07   Link #62
Highman
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sora Kasugano View Post
It is really odd because when I heard of Obama championing a neutral and free internet I felt quite happy. This secret alliance/coalition is frightening. While I immediately focus on Anime (essentially my small world) there is a lot I worry about. My mother lives in China and she is unable to see a lot of the pages and links I send her because they are on blacklists. They also filter content a lot and often take a page down only to put it up- then take it down again on a whim.

Something as free and available as the internet should never be regulated... I share Synaesthetic's sentiment in that I am really angry. It's a mixture of hysterical laughter seeded with annoyance. Because of black lists with the internet my mother can't upload or see videos I send her. She can't even find out information about what the government is doing that she should be warned about. She is completely in the dark in regards to many things.

If we make what is happening in China possible in other countries it's basically dumping on the whole proud talks of "globe village" and that we were evolving to a more "free social international society" governments can easily just present us with whatever they want barring us from figuring out what is really going on. Getting the "other side" of a debate could be come more difficult with governmental control over the internet.
Well I'm sorry your mother is living difficult in China when around in Communism, but like I said earlier this will not work at all when EU thinks about this, they are the one to go through with it. But I hope there wont be internet regulations soon. Mark my words, there is nothing to worry about.
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Old 2010-10-04, 00:31   Link #63
Yuno
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I'll be counting on the EU then~ I hope that things will simply die as you say. The attempts are a bit nerve racking as it is quite effective in China. There of course are attempts to fight the "Great Firewall of China" but the results of being caught is nasty. I thank you for your sympathies it's really hampered our communication since she's been there so it is distressing to hear of such regulations being talked about by "free" countries.
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Old 2010-10-04, 10:55   Link #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sora Kasugano View Post
I'll be counting on the EU then~ I hope that things will simply die as you say. The attempts are a bit nerve racking as it is quite effective in China. There of course are attempts to fight the "Great Firewall of China" but the results of being caught is nasty. I thank you for your sympathies it's really hampered our communication since she's been there so it is distressing to hear of such regulations being talked about by "free" countries.
I know China hasn't been independent since then nor given alot of free will like the other countries. But it's sad when Communism is taking full control but I think they won't relevant If they don't shape up their situations. But I don't know the Asian economy alot.
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Old 2010-10-04, 10:58   Link #65
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The Internet treats censorship as a malfunction and routes around it.

Edit: This thread has inspired me. My English class has a central theme--free speech--and this thread has inspired me to do my final research project on COICA and ACTA and how they endanger free speech and the First Amendment on the Internet.

I will, of course, publish it online afterwards.
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Old 2010-10-04, 14:11   Link #66
Highman
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Quote:
Originally Posted by synaesthetic View Post
The Internet treats censorship as a malfunction and routes around it.

Edit: This thread has inspired me. My English class has a central theme--free speech--and this thread has inspired me to do my final research project on COICA and ACTA and how they endanger free speech and the First Amendment on the Internet.

I will, of course, publish it online afterwards.
All Right can't wait for your blogging post onwards. Give me a PM on this soon
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Old 2010-10-04, 20:04   Link #67
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China is often programmed their free will and given illusions of freedom, while being told that they shouldn't desire what other countries have because it's not "Harmonious." The economy is interesting too as you can have people pursuing riches, but you have others who simply do not do well. Yet the poor or mistreated can't really complain, rally or gather, without the authorities already knowing and shutting it down.

Protests can quickly be labeled as rebellion and lead to extremely brutal responses. Sites that seemingly critizise or degrade can be easily taken down by the government. Things are censored a lot and others are even believed to be hacked in an attempt to eliminate opposition. The systems placed and proposed in COIC and ACTA is the same kind of control that China has over it's people. The only difference is the extent in which they will use it- or so they say.

I'd also be interested in your research project, please by all means post it I wouldn't mind reading it at all~
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Old 2010-10-04, 21:59   Link #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sora Kasugano View Post
China is often programmed their free will and given illusions of freedom, while being told that they shouldn't desire what other countries have because it's not "Harmonious." The economy is interesting too as you can have people pursuing riches, but you have others who simply do not do well. Yet the poor or mistreated can't really complain, rally or gather, without the authorities already knowing and shutting it down.

Protests can quickly be labeled as rebellion and lead to extremely brutal responses. Sites that seemingly critizise or degrade can be easily taken down by the government. Things are censored a lot and others are even believed to be hacked in an attempt to eliminate opposition. The systems placed and proposed in COIC and ACTA is the same kind of control that China has over it's people. The only difference is the extent in which they will use it- or so they say.

I'd also be interested in your research project, please by all means post it I wouldn't mind reading it at all~
I'm just stating the truth but I would like to start a blog soon. I may do that ASAP!
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Old 2010-10-05, 02:43   Link #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sora Kasugano View Post
China is often programmed their free will and given illusions of freedom, while being told that they shouldn't desire what other countries have because it's not "Harmonious." The economy is interesting too as you can have people pursuing riches, but you have others who simply do not do well. Yet the poor or mistreated can't really complain, rally or gather, without the authorities already knowing and shutting it down.

Protests can quickly be labeled as rebellion and lead to extremely brutal responses. Sites that seemingly critizise or degrade can be easily taken down by the government. Things are censored a lot and others are even believed to be hacked in an attempt to eliminate opposition. The systems placed and proposed in COIC and ACTA is the same kind of control that China has over it's people. The only difference is the extent in which they will use it- or so they say.

I'd also be interested in your research project, please by all means post it I wouldn't mind reading it at all~
China has over a billion people and an economy that is comparable to Japan's:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...y_GDP_(nominal)

That said, the Chinese are not the wealthiest on average rather the opposit considering those numbers. So there is a potential risk that a large number of them becomes very unhappy. This is counteracted with a moderate propaganda and patriotism machine. Still, the chinese economy and state business is driven by the same capitalist forces that are lobbying/driving (state) business in the west. In contrast to the west they are just more blunt and direct at it.

Imagine a China with unhappy people. People who never lived in a democracy, who are used to theocracy suddenly developping their own source of power driven by the growing economy - overthrowing their current system. What likely follows then threatening in my oppinion in contrast to the status quo now. What kind of system could emerge then is something like the Weimarer Republik - the Germany before it became the 3rd Reich. There will be people who are not too convinced about the new system, they grew up in a theocratic system. And chances are that things will not develop quite as expected with the new freedoms. And many wishing the old system back... and people who use the new free speech to feed on the fears and sorrows making propaganda far worse than what is currently going on.... (that is enough hypothetical stuff for now, but my point is I rather want to see the chinese system eveolve into democracy not revolt into it, and their current status quo is the best they can do considering their past and current economic strength.)
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Old 2010-10-05, 03:10   Link #70
Yuno
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There are revolts and things, but these riots are put down quite effectively by their legal forces. The population of government officials and law enforcement is much larger than what most western countries have and controlling the populance is not that difficult for them. There will be no over throwing for sure, as the entire doctrine of their communist movement went against rebels or chance of rebellion. The people that are unhappy tend to be quickly censored and hopes of democratic change is very unlikely as it is now. There has been some easing on their policies since the Olympics though, but not enough to warrent my moving there to stay with my mother.

While things are progressing in China there has been a forward movement with little conciousness towards the populance's health, so they are facing much of the same problems we had during the industrial revolution. My mother spoke of smog warnings and an article saying that it was better for you to not jog outside in Tianjin.

You are quite right about the population situaton as well as the vision of wealthiness, but Tianjin and other places like that will have you believe that things were different than the stats tell you. A simple drive out can reveal a much poorer conditioned environment. They've also moved smog detecting beacons to cleaner areas to have the apperance of more "blue days" than normal. It is all really interesting, but I worry when countries like the west who are supposed to be more free are setting up a system that we used to critizise China for having.

I shall have faith in what Highman says and try to count on the EU to put the cap on this before it gets out of hand. China's situation and much of the things that go on out here are unknown to the people I would hate us to lose our ability to access what we can now.

@Highman, if you do start a blog I would love to have a link I would love to read it and keep track.~
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Old 2010-10-05, 12:38   Link #71
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Though if Chinese history is taken into account a revolt is probably the most likely end result of their current government, unless it continues to evolve at a rapid pace.
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Old 2010-10-05, 13:12   Link #72
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The US bill COICA was tabled til after elections due, in part, to a write-in campaign by the EFF and harumph-ing from the ACLU. Unfortunately, that also means it is still lurking about waiting for people to be distracted by something else.
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Old 2010-10-05, 13:24   Link #73
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I'd pin my hopes on the EFF, but honestly the ACLU has more pull amongst the non internet-dwelling masses.

So I hope they keep harumph-ing!
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Old 2010-10-05, 15:20   Link #74
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Quote:
the jig is up man

The wild west that is the internet is now done, over, regulated.
Nah. Said this same thing in another topic, will say it again: tech savvy people will still get what they want. It's the average Joe that will have difficulties and that's okay. I do find this political meddling annoying, though, since it makes me lose faith in democracy. It also makes me kinda wonder if there is a better way to govern people.
Quote:
I'd pin my hopes on the EFF, but honestly the ACLU has more pull amongst the non internet-dwelling masses.
I think all of the anti-copyright groups have been systematically been set aside, both in EU and US. Which is part of the reason why the anonymous of 4chan has mopping out various copyright websites.
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Old 2010-10-05, 21:10   Link #75
Yuno
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I consider myself an average computer users so I suppose it is why I frown over the potential difficulties. I can't thrive well without the internet. So I'm glad it has been put on hold because it gives people more time to think twice about their decisions. Whether it's good or bad I am not sure though, but typically when I second guess it's usually contradictory to what I wanted initially.

Another system and a better way to govern people? I'm curious. Anarchy doesn't appeal to me because I wouldn't survive that.

You are most correct ChainLegacy as it has occured in the past, but from what I gathered there it would be most likely an intellectual revolt than anything physical. My time there has proven the difficulty of that. I couldn't stay long due to the air making me ill though so I couldn't look into things very far.
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Old 2010-10-05, 23:11   Link #76
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Tomorrow we will see if the Free World is about to crash down on us and bring us to a Brave New (Old) World of our corporate overlords.  

Anyway, a link to the Japanese Ministry of Foreign Affairs website tells much by telling so little. No mention of any real criticisms, public participation, or any such democratic nonsense. Just the simple, celebratory "mission successful" kind of statements. The symbolism of Japan being the center of the "final" negotiations is also important. It -- alongside the USA -- are leading the negotiations. Both major world economies are plagued by deep interrelationships between the business establishment and the governmental apparatii, and both are under heavy recessions which seem to encourage scapegoating. It's the filthy pirates' fault, not, oh, the system.

Also utterly missing is any mention of this intensely controversial treaty-to-be within mainstream Japanese media. They're busy day and night with "reporting" the Floppy Disk Scandal and the "ascension" of Kim whateverthefuckhisnameis in North Korea. Oh and the yen-dollar exchange rate maelstrom, but that's actually something of a real issue. Even the major diplomatic incident surrounding the Senkaku Islands dispute is receiving less media attention than I expected.

I have always been a little guilty about pirating, thinking that once I've started to earn real income that I would "pay back" some of it. But if this indeed passes and comes into effect it will wash away the last of my guilt and convince me to happily pirate away the rest of my days, and the moral copyrighters can fuck off. The less easily regulated parts of the Internet will indeed "reroute" around it, albeit with higher risks, but the higher stakes are also worth taking. Self-righteous, perhaps (though again moral copyrighters can fuck off), but the simple and selfish act of consuming entertainment for free will become something far more -- a form of passive civil protest -- if one is doing it in spite of the efforts to suppress rights and liberties associated with modern liberal democracy and human rights.

Last edited by Irenicus; 2010-10-05 at 23:24.
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Old 2010-10-06, 12:48   Link #77
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Originally Posted by Irenicus View Post
Tomorrow we will see if the Free World is about to crash down on us and bring us to a Brave New (Old) World of our corporate overlords.  

Anyway, a link to the Japanese Ministry of Foreign Affairs website tells much by telling so little. No mention of any real criticisms, public participation, or any such democratic nonsense. Just the simple, celebratory "mission successful" kind of statements. The symbolism of Japan being the center of the "final" negotiations is also important. It -- alongside the USA -- are leading the negotiations. Both major world economies are plagued by deep interrelationships between the business establishment and the governmental apparatii, and both are under heavy recessions which seem to encourage scapegoating. It's the filthy pirates' fault, not, oh, the system.

Also utterly missing is any mention of this intensely controversial treaty-to-be within mainstream Japanese media. They're busy day and night with "reporting" the Floppy Disk Scandal and the "ascension" of Kim whateverthefuckhisnameis in North Korea. Oh and the yen-dollar exchange rate maelstrom, but that's actually something of a real issue. Even the major diplomatic incident surrounding the Senkaku Islands dispute is receiving less media attention than I expected.

I have always been a little guilty about pirating, thinking that once I've started to earn real income that I would "pay back" some of it. But if this indeed passes and comes into effect it will wash away the last of my guilt and convince me to happily pirate away the rest of my days, and the moral copyrighters can fuck off. The less easily regulated parts of the Internet will indeed "reroute" around it, albeit with higher risks, but the higher stakes are also worth taking. Self-righteous, perhaps (though again moral copyrighters can fuck off), but the simple and selfish act of consuming entertainment for free will become something far more -- a form of passive civil protest -- if one is doing it in spite of the efforts to suppress rights and liberties associated with modern liberal democracy and human rights.

Yes there will be ways around it, but they will be ways you have to be very tech savvy to understand and operate. I get myself banned from IRC, once torrenting and such is gone, I'm out of the anime game(Pretty much am anyways, but you get what I'm saying).

We need a Karl Marx of the internet, lol.
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Old 2010-10-07, 00:19   Link #78
Vexx
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Mexican Senate Unanimously Votes To Remove Mexico From ACTA Negotations
http://www.techdirt.com/articles/201...otations.shtml
Quote:
With the news that the EU Parliament is not happy with ACTA and threatening to reject it, now comes the news (via Jamie Love) that the Mexican Senate has voted unanimously to withdraw from ACTA negotiations. You can read the full resolution here (Google translation from the original Spanish). The resolution points out that access to information is a key point in helping to build a modern, information-based nation, and ACTA is about removing access to information and knowledge. They're not against ACTA entirely, but think that the process needs to be a lot more open and involve a lot more stakeholders, and say they won't agree to ACTA unless the process includes a much larger group in the discussions:
The Senator proposed to create a mixed analysis group consisting of experts, academics, corporations and members of the public that will analyze the current text of the agreement
Of course, it's not clear exactly how much say the Mexican Senate has here. While the resolution claims that it needs to ratify any such agreements, I don't know if that's the case. In the US, for example, the administration will avoid needing Senate approval (which it needs for treaties) by designating it as an "executive agreement" instead of a "treaty." Of course, if you talk to legal scholars, they point out that the only real difference is that an executive agreement doesn't need to be approved by the Senate. I have no idea if Mexico has a similar setup. Also, this is just a "non-binding resolution," so may not mean much in the long run. However, it is nice to see that some actual politicians are equally disturbed over how the ACTA negotiations took place and the fact that some final agreement is just being dumped on politicians at the last minute.
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Old 2010-10-07, 09:25   Link #79
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So Mexico is the voice of sanity now?
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Old 2010-10-07, 09:53   Link #80
Vexx
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So Mexico is the voice of sanity now?
Bizarre, isn't it?

The US is pretty transparently owned and driven by a few large corporations for the benefit of their executives/owner-barons via Congress. Mexico has similar problems but, like the EU, their legislature seems to have a better handle on the negative long term ramifications of the short-term-think greed dripping out of this activity.
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