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Old 2010-10-12, 02:24   Link #18041
Renall
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What if we're playing as the killer?
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Old 2010-10-12, 02:27   Link #18042
Will Wright
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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
What if we're playing as the killer?
Kill Ange as soon as possible.
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Old 2010-10-12, 02:27   Link #18043
Judoh
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Originally Posted by Ssol View Post
If it's a 'choose your route' kind of scenario I wonder how many people will be honest about getting the bad ending on their first run through.
I'm always honest!

For example I won't be playing episode 8 until a proper guide for the choices is out
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Old 2010-10-12, 02:28   Link #18044
TehChron
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Originally Posted by Will Wright View Post
Perfect. So let's establish the terms of our competition:

-If the character we are playing as is Ange, getting a game over as soon as possible means winning.
-If we are playing as anyone else, then our goal becomes to solve everything and get the good ending.
Actually, I was thinking something like this:
  • If the character we are playing as is Ushiromiya Ange, then the first to get her to experience the worst possible ending means winning. This is a tossup between the Hilarious Irony Ending (Amakusa is really Battler. Shoots her anyway). The Loli Triumphant (Bernkastel's complete and utter trolling of Ange into brutal death X), and something even worse Ryukishi may have thought up.
  • If we are playing as anyone else, to deduce the true events of what happened on Rokkenjimma, and get the "True", ending. As the only way we can have a "good" ending is by accepting the fantasy aspects and denying the tragic nature of the Mystery Aspects of the story. Namely, the "True" who how and whydunnits. As well as the "true" epilogue/Tea Party/???. Also includes the route where Battler takes on George in a brutal fight to the death. And wins.
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Old 2010-10-12, 02:29   Link #18045
Shiro Kaisen
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Here's an idea a friend of mine mentioned that I absolutely love, as long as it's done well.

You play as Meta-Battler and Meta-Ange, and you have to blue truth explain the twisted scenarios that Bernkastel presents and prove the real truth. You, as the player, solve the mystery yourself. Thus, Ryuukishi doesn't provide the answers. You do.

And there's multiple endings, and there's no distinction between the right and wrong endings - they just end and we have to debate about what's right, because Ryuu's a troll.
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Old 2010-10-12, 02:31   Link #18046
TehChron
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shiro Kaisen View Post
Here's an idea a friend of mine mentioned that I absolutely love, as long as it's done well.

You play as Meta-Battler and Meta-Ange, and you have to blue truth explain the twisted scenarios that Bernkastel presents and prove the real truth. You, as the player, solve the mystery yourself. Thus, Ryuukishi doesn't provide the answers. You do.

And there's multiple endings, and there's no distinction between the right and wrong endings - they just end and we have to debate about what's right, because Ryuu's a troll.
Thats what Renall's afraid of, and to be fair, he's right to be. Itd be a complete and utter troll, and would cause some of us spend several more years piecing together Ryukishi's "truth" until we can confront him about it and obtain confirmation for ourselves.
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Old 2010-10-12, 02:32   Link #18047
Shiro Kaisen
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Originally Posted by TehChron View Post
Thats what Renall's afraid of, and to be fair, he's right to be. Itd be a complete and utter troll, and would cause some of us spend several more years piecing together Ryukishi's "truth" until we can confront him about it and obtain confirmation for ourselves.
Well, as far as the 'mystery's answer,' it'd be pretty clear what the right answer is - as wrong ones would lead to pretty obviously bad endings where Trollkastel ends you brutally. And stuff.
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Old 2010-10-12, 02:33   Link #18048
TehChron
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Originally Posted by Shiro Kaisen View Post
Well, as far as the 'mystery's answer,' it'd be pretty clear what the right answer is - as wrong ones would lead to pretty obviously bad endings where Trollkastel ends you brutally. And stuff.
Eh, sounds kind of dull in execution, honestly.

I would be underwhelmed.
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Old 2010-10-12, 02:33   Link #18049
Will Wright
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Originally Posted by TehChron View Post
Actually, I was thinking something like this:
  • If the character we are playing as is Ushiromiya Ange, then the first to get her to experience the worst possible ending means winning. This is a tossup between the Hilarious Irony Ending (Amakusa is really Battler. Shoots her anyway). The Loli Triumphant (Bernkastel's complete and utter trolling of Ange into brutal death X), and something even worse Ryukishi may have thought up.
  • If we are playing as anyone else, to deduce the true events of what happened on Rokkenjimma, and get the "True", ending. As the only way we can have a "good" ending is by accepting the fantasy aspects and denying the tragic nature of the Mystery Aspects of the story. Namely, the "True" who how and whydunnits. As well as the "true" epilogue/Tea Party/???. Also includes the route where Battler takes on George in a brutal fight to the death. And wins.
I accept, but I want the George vs Battler fight to end with Gohda coming out of nowhere, stabbing him and saying with a Joker smiler "You forgot about me, didn't you? I will now show you why you don't FORGET ABOUT GODHA! Your fat will be the perfect ingredient for my perfect pie" and sending him to hell.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shiro Kaisen View Post
Here's an idea a friend of mine mentioned that I absolutely love, as long as it's done well.

You play as Meta-Battler and Meta-Ange, and you have to blue truth explain the twisted scenarios that Bernkastel presents and prove the real truth. You, as the player, solve the mystery yourself. Thus, Ryuukishi doesn't provide the answers. You do.

And there's multiple endings, and there's no distinction between the right and wrong endings - they just end and we have to debate about what's right, because Ryuu's a troll.
So a PW style gameplay? Well, that would be fun, but I don't know if onscripter can handle it.
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Old 2010-10-12, 02:35   Link #18050
Judoh
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Originally Posted by Shiro Kaisen View Post
Well, as far as the 'mystery's answer,' it'd be pretty clear what the right answer is - as wrong ones would lead to pretty obviously bad endings where Trollkastel ends you brutally. And stuff.
As long as we get a game over screen where the protagonist is turned into catfood or hamburger meat. I think it will be fun!
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Old 2010-10-12, 02:40   Link #18051
Ssol
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Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
I'm always honest!

For example I won't be playing episode 8 until a proper guide for the choices is out
Me too (Well, at the least the english translation)
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Originally Posted by Will Wright View Post
I accept, but I want the George vs Battler fight to end with Gohda coming out of nowhere, stabbing him and saying with a Joker smiler "You forgot about me, didn't you? I will now show you why you don't FORGET ABOUT GODHA! Your fat will be the perfect ingredient for my perfect pie" and sending him to hell.
Yes, we need a Magical Gohda Chef route!

Hmm... choosing Yasu and then having to pick between Battler, George, and Jessica...
Of course, the true gender could switch depending on who you pick.
Wait, I hope this doesn't become an eroge.
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Old 2010-10-12, 02:41   Link #18052
TehChron
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Originally Posted by Will Wright View Post
I accept, but I want the George vs Battler fight to end with Gohda coming out of nowhere, stabbing him and saying with a Joker smiler "You forgot about me, didn't you? I will now show you why you don't FORGET ABOUT GODHA! Your fat will be the perfect ingredient for my perfect pie" and sending him to hell.
Actually, I would assume Gohda's entrance would be something like this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4BOQI-LAEzM
Only with George shooting bolts of fat at Battler, then a half-dead Gohda would appear out of nowhere and hurl him down a space shaft (just go with it) in a noble act of self-sacrifice and redemption. Thus completing the story and establishing that Umineko was really always the story of the Rise, Fall, and Redemption of Magical Chef Gohda.

Edit: Oh lord, I just watched that video while picturing those three characters as having the sprite's faces for the corresponding characters.

Quote:
So a PW style gameplay? Well, that would be fun, but I don't know if onscripter can handle it.
He'd have to program an AI into it in order for the feature to be anything other than a tacked on novelty, though. I dont think 07thexpansion has those kinds of resources.
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Old 2010-10-12, 03:27   Link #18053
Used Can
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Originally Posted by LyricalAura View Post
I predict that the viewpoint character of EP8 will be the game master, Bernkastel.
You've suddenly become Bernkastel; your choices are:

1. Troll
2. Troll even more
3. Troll again

BEST.CHOICES.EVER!

Depending on your choices, you get a different end with Lambdadelta. And, of course, you'll be aiming for the top... unless you want bottom, if you know what I mean.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Will Wright View Post
If it's Ange I would take the "become burger" choice because that'd be waaaay better than fast food.
ftfy
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Old 2010-10-12, 05:30   Link #18054
Kitsu
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Originally Posted by Ssol View Post
Hmm... choosing Yasu and then having to pick between Battler, George, and Jessica...
Of course, the true gender could switch depending on who you pick.
Wait, I hope this doesn't become an eroge.
I would love Ryukishi for this...as long as I can have my Jessica route I'm satiesfied. Who am I kidding? I would play the Jessica end more than it is good for me.
Being serious, the prospect of choices doesn't sound appealing to me. Not even considering that I would get bad ends after bad ends because no matter what I play it is always like that. It's just impossible for me.... no matter what kind of choices I am presented.
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Old 2010-10-12, 07:15   Link #18055
Jan-Poo
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Okay calm, don't panic. This is Ryuukishi teasing us, it's probably that.. yeah it must be!

Well seriously... I really hope we won't get multiple realities. Even if there is a choice pattern it doesn't mean there won't be a single solution to the mysteries.
I can make a notable example "Shadow of Memories", where you actually need to play all the different endings to get the whole picture. So each ending is a piece of the whole puzzle rather than one of many different outcomes.

Since Umineko involves fictions and metaworlds it is possible that there might be different outcomes in the "golden land", that can be understandable, but this story shouldn't leave doubts about what really happened on rokkenjima prime, I personally wouldn't like that kind of ending...
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Old 2010-10-12, 09:38   Link #18056
Used Can
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I still believe the multiple realities would be the same as Lion's reality. It doesn't really "exist," but it is still a possible reality. This means, that's not part of the answer for our story, but it certainly broadens our knowledge regarding a particular character and certain situations.

Also, again, R07 didn't say it'd you'd play as a certain character, but as a character. So, this is not limited to one, but perhaps we'll get to play through several character's viewpoints, and this way broaden our knowledge on their personalities and actual motivations. We'd be seeing the same situation from many different perspectives. If you ask me, that'd be rather interesting.
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Old 2010-10-12, 10:25   Link #18057
Renall
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Having had some time to sleep on it, I can better clarify the reasons why this would be a bad idea as we are now speculating. I reserve, of course, the possibility that he was kidding (it would seem contradictory to his blog post), or that what he means by choices and endings doesn't necessarily mean what we're expecting. In the latter case, it'd be much easier for him to "do it right," but I'd have no idea how so I couldn't long speculate on it.

So anyway, reasons why a "standard VN choice node" approach would be bad:
  • It isn't really much of an "answer" in any sense. By anyone's standards of what they wanted an "answer" to be, not just the folks who want a whodunnit. The more obviously he makes one answer "right" the less of a problem this is, but even if that is apparently unambiguously clear, I have a feeling alternate explanations, if not obviously wrong, will not go away so gently. And if the "bad" ends are brutal, mean deconstructions of particular theories in order to ensure no alternative exists (as right now, it's very ambiguous unless he starts throwing out scorched-earth facts), I'd find that very childish of him.
  • It breaks narrative flow. I've approached Umineko for seven episodes as more of a book than a game. Choices turn it into something I didn't want to read, really; I dislike VNs with choices, generally, and just follow guides because that's a "gameplay" element I really don't enjoy engaging with. Ignoring whether the choice options presented are well-composed, I don't really like the idea of the format breaking up his story.
  • This is supposed to be his ending, not mine. Obviously, he's writing all of it, but by putting decision-making in my hand he's basically asserting one of two things. Either he's expecting me to reach an ending I like, or he's got a right answer and he wants to flaunt his own intellect by forcing a reader through a series of choices to "see how you did." It's a poor mystery writer who berates his audience for failing to meet the challenge; tell them it's okay to solve and that they can stop and start reading again to compare, sure, but leave it at that. Nevermind that there are people who don't read mysteries to "play the game." Choices force the reader to "play." I know several people who like Umineko, but don't want to figure out who the killer is. Is that a little lazy? Sure. But it's a valid way to read a detective story, to marvel at the detective's solution that you never even thought about. For somebody who just wants to read to the end, the choices are basically an annoyance. Get a guide or just guess. That's not much fun.
  • I worry the choices will be unintuitive even if you have the "right answer." Say the goal is to pinpoint the culprit, and you succeed at that because you figured out the whodunnit. You're then presented with a second choice, one more based on an immediate situation which has never come up before (confrontation with the killer), and which is not really based on having the answer or not. Would it be fair to have a choice node like that? If you got the right killer but picked the wrong secondary choice, did you really "fail" to uncover the truth? Granted, we don't even know what those would be to begin with. Still...
Now, a thought. Battler closes ep7 offering to tell a story. Featherine/Tohya said if you knew the truth, you could write a story. In theory, a series of choice nodes to "tell the story" of the truth could test the reader on what they think they know. But it'd have to be done very subtly to not cause the issues noted above. This would, however, account for "bad" endings; you've told a story of Rokkenjima, but you didn't tell the story, because you got some theme or detail wrong. So you need to go back and tell another (kinda Sands of Time-y).

I have trouble believing any story told with choices that lets you approach the truth of the incident could meet the conditions Battler set forth in the epilogue of ep7, however. Unless that's a hint as to how to make our choices, and even then, it'd probably lack the flair some people seem to be anticipating it would have.
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Redaction of the Golden Witch
I submit that a murder was committed in 1996.
This murder was a "copycat" crime inspired by our tales of 1986.
This story is a redacted confession.

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Battler Solves The Logic Error
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Old 2010-10-12, 12:29   Link #18058
Leafsnail
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Anyone else considered that Umineko could just be Ryukushi seeing how long he can get away with making it up as he goes along?

In any case, playing as the murderer would be great, and could help show their motive and any difficult choices they may have made.
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Old 2010-10-12, 12:30   Link #18059
TehChron
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Originally Posted by Leafsnail View Post
Anyone else considered that Umineko could just be Ryukushi seeing how long he can get away with making it up as he goes along?

In any case, playing as the murderer would be great, and could help show their motive and any difficult choices they may have made.
Very limited novelty to build the entire story around, though. If he handles it as one part of the larger story, then sure, itd be great, but Episode 8 would need more to it in order to justify this approach.
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Old 2010-10-12, 12:59   Link #18060
Renall
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Very limited novelty to build the entire story around, though. If he handles it as one part of the larger story, then sure, itd be great, but Episode 8 would need more to it in order to justify this approach.
That really bothers me, yeah. If he's gonna do it, it has to be the only way he could have done it. If he's going for an ambitious, sweeping end, then by all means. But if it aspires to that, it's gotta live up to it, or else there doesn't seem to be a particularly good reason to do it.
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I submit that a murder was committed in 1996.
This murder was a "copycat" crime inspired by our tales of 1986.
This story is a redacted confession.

Blog (VN DL) - YouTube Playlists
Battler Solves The Logic Error
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