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Old 2010-10-14, 12:00   Link #181
Moczo
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Originally Posted by Haak View Post
Really impressive. One of things that annoyed me about Fate/Stay Night was that servants would only ever fight one on one, or atleast there would only be two sides. This massive battle really does seem like three sides with their own agenda's. It's becoming more of a Thirty Xanatos Pileup that I wished the original story had.

However, I do have one problem: Everyone here seems a lot smarter than in the game. I suppose that's probably a good thing (I forgot to mention this in the Game thread, but just so you know, even though i bashed Shirou a lot for being an idiot, I still ended up rather liking him) but it does kinda feel odd. I just don't get the same feel for these characters here than I did in the game, though perhaps that might simply suggest that we have different interpretations. There's a lot of taunting that goes on. I could understand Archer doing it because he did it for practical reasons but I can't imagine Rider doing it. Plus it's a lot harder for me to just accept that all the civilians don't have a clue what's going on. Surely someone must've noticed by now?

Oh and btw I think there's a typo in the third sentance in the last section;
Thanks! If you're going to do something, do it big and chaotic, that's what I always say.

Yeah... I'm trying to stay close to the spirit of the characters, but frankly my writing style is a lot different from Nasu's and I'm afraid it will show through. I guess I should take it as a compliment if I'm having trouble keeping it dumb enough

Rider is actually not as untaunting as she could be. It only seems to be when she has a clear advantage (Against Saber while scaling the buildings in Fate, against Shirou in the woods in UBW), and only when Shinji is her Master, but she's got kind of a snarky side to her. Of course, I may be slightly biased in my opinions by my remembrances of the anime, where Karen Strassman's voice work just had this delicious purring contempt to everything she said, even stuff that wasn't supposed to be snarky or contemptuous. I have an unvoiced version of the game, so when I think of Rider speaking that is the voice I hear.

All I can assume is that civilians in the Nasuverse are either complete morons or the smartest people in the story. Depending on whether they just don't notice what's happening, or have the good sense to ignore it and live a little bit longer. They were probably paying attention to Tsukihime, where civilians who interrupt get eaten by chaos beasts.
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Old 2010-10-14, 15:54   Link #182
Cherry_Lover
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Rider is actually not as untaunting as she could be. It only seems to be when she has a clear advantage (Against Saber while scaling the buildings in Fate, against Shirou in the woods in UBW), and only when Shinji is her Master, but she's got kind of a snarky side to her. Of course, I may be slightly biased in my opinions by my remembrances of the anime, where Karen Strassman's voice work just had this delicious purring contempt to everything she said, even stuff that wasn't supposed to be snarky or contemptuous.
Well, Rider chucking Shinji in the thorns was a nice touch, and not exactly implausible. Rin doing her usual "act tough, and then chicken out at the last minute and leave myself deep in the shit" routine was nice, too.

I'm guessing that Shinji is seriously screwed here, now that Berserker is after him. Not sure if you're going to beleatedly form the Rin/Shirou alliance, or if Rin is going to storm off in a huff after all this and say that she honestly will absolutely definitely kill Shirou the next time they meet....
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Old 2010-10-14, 22:53   Link #183
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Originally Posted by Cherry_Lover View Post
Rin is going to storm off in a huff after all this and say that she honestly will absolutely definitely kill Shirou the next time they meet....
I'm more for Rin going "we need to work together to defeat Berseker" and Shirou being all "but his master seems like a nice person, maybe we can talk...?"
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Old 2010-10-14, 23:16   Link #184
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I'm more for Rin going "we need to work together to defeat Berseker" and Shirou being all "but his master seems like a nice person, maybe we can talk...?"
Unless Berserker attacks them, I don't really see Rin being that terrified by him. It's not like Rider is exactly the best Servant to gather Berserker's terror from.

I'm more wondering what Ilya will do during this. Will she reveal herself to be Berserker's master, or will she pretend to just be passing by to test how Shirou reacts? We haven't gotten the obligatory "Shirou getting horribly wounded for the main heroine" yet, after all.
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Old 2010-10-15, 02:30   Link #185
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Originally Posted by GlancingReverse View Post
I'm more for Rin going "we need to work together to defeat Berseker" and Shirou being all "but his master seems like a nice person, maybe we can talk...?"
If Berserker comes to Shirou's aid I don't see why Rin will be thinking that...

More likely she'll probably consider Shirou even more of a threat and take him more seriously.
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Old 2010-10-15, 05:51   Link #186
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Unless Berserker attacks them, I don't really see Rin being that terrified by him. It's not like Rider is exactly the best Servant to gather Berserker's terror from.
Well, more to the point, I don't see why Rin would go out to attack him when he's clearly helping her. Even if you ignore the fact that she's a big softie at heart, it doesn't make logical sense. Plus, if Rin does offer, Shirou will just plain refuse, most likely, since he doesn't actually care about the war, and so will only fight in self-defense or to defend innocents. Since Berserker is not attacking them and shows no signs of doing so, Shirou will not see any reason to attempt to defeat him.

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We haven't gotten the obligatory "Shirou getting horribly wounded for the main heroine" yet, after all.
We haven't even got a "main heroine" yet....

Indeed, I'm not sure this story will even have one, as such. It seems like Mozco is intending to involve everyone, and whilst Shirou will certainly have a close relationship with Ilya at the end of this, I hope that it won't become sexual in nature, because Shirou is not a paedophile, and regardless of her actual age, Ilya looks like a ten-year-old. That, coupled with the fact that she's his sister makes a sexual relationship very hard to implement. Plus, even if one happened, Ilya wouldn't enjoy it, because she has the body of a child. Children are not supposed to have sex, and if she does so it will really fucking hurt.

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Originally Posted by Haak View Post
If Berserker comes to Shirou's aid I don't see why Rin will be thinking that...
Except that Berserker has also come to her aid, and Ilya doesn't seem to have any problem with Rin (although she will clearly kill her if provoked).

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More likely she'll probably consider Shirou even more of a threat and take him more seriously.
Well, it depends on how Shirou reacts. I would imagine that Rin is smart enough to have worked out by now that Shirou has no wish to fight her whatsoever, and thus isn't any danger unless she starts something.
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Old 2010-10-15, 08:33   Link #187
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Originally Posted by Cherry_Lover View Post
We haven't even got a "main heroine" yet....
It's coined the "Ilya Route". There's obviously a main heroine, even if other characters are getting adequate screen time.

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Indeed, I'm not sure this story will even have one, as such. It seems like Mozco is intending to involve everyone, and whilst Shirou will certainly have a close relationship with Ilya at the end of this, I hope that it won't become sexual in nature, because Shirou is not a paedophile, and regardless of her actual age, Ilya looks like a ten-year-old.
Because it's impossible for souls to transfer bodies in the nasuverse? There are at least two examples of such a thing occurring in FSN alone.

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That, coupled with the fact that she's his sister makes a sexual relationship very hard to implement.
They aren't blood related, and they've known each other for about a day at this point. They're less like siblings than Shirou and Sakura are by this point.

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Plus, even if one happened, Ilya wouldn't enjoy it, because she has the body of a child. Children are not supposed to have sex, and if she does so it will really fucking hurt.
Can't assume homunculus bodies work the exact same as a regular human's. Besides, as said it's not impossible for her to get a new body, and in fact is rather necessary for her to not die a year after the war. You know, that whole "good ending" thing.

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Well, it depends on how Shirou reacts. I would imagine that Rin is smart enough to have worked out by now that Shirou has no wish to fight her whatsoever, and thus isn't any danger unless she starts something.
Not going to stop Archer from pushing her to fight him anyway.
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Old 2010-10-15, 08:36   Link #188
Moczo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GDB View Post
Unless Berserker attacks them, I don't really see Rin being that terrified by him. It's not like Rider is exactly the best Servant to gather Berserker's terror from.

I'm more wondering what Ilya will do during this. Will she reveal herself to be Berserker's master, or will she pretend to just be passing by to test how Shirou reacts? We haven't gotten the obligatory "Shirou getting horribly wounded for the main heroine" yet, after all.
Heh, not like he needs to do anything to inspire terror. Shirou's first reaction to encountering him in the game is consistently the realization 'Oh, God, we are in so much trouble'.

As for Ilya, she definitely does not want Shirou to know she is a Master if at all possible. She's still interested in figuring out his real personality, and doesn't want to put him on guard against her. She won't even be letting him see her if she can avoid it.

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Originally Posted by Haak View Post
If Berserker comes to Shirou's aid I don't see why Rin will be thinking that...

More likely she'll probably consider Shirou even more of a threat and take him more seriously.
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Originally Posted by Cherry_Lover View Post
Well, more to the point, I don't see why Rin would go out to attack him when he's clearly helping her. Even if you ignore the fact that she's a big softie at heart, it doesn't make logical sense. Plus, if Rin does offer, Shirou will just plain refuse, most likely, since he doesn't actually care about the war, and so will only fight in self-defense or to defend innocents. Since Berserker is not attacking them and shows no signs of doing so, Shirou will not see any reason to attempt to defeat him.

Except that Berserker has also come to her aid, and Ilya doesn't seem to have any problem with Rin (although she will clearly kill her if provoked).

Well, it depends on how Shirou reacts. I would imagine that Rin is smart enough to have worked out by now that Shirou has no wish to fight her whatsoever, and thus isn't any danger unless she starts something.
Depends on how much of a psychotic mess I want to make this next chapter, and how well Berserker interprets 'Protect Shirou'. Kill anything that attacks Shirou? In this case, Shirou and Rin are both smart enough not to screw with the non-hostile Doom Giant, I think, and Rider and Shinji are pretty well screwed.

Kill anything that has attacked Shirou? Now suddenly Rin and Archer are added to the dead list, and Rin has ample evidence to believe that somehow or another that no-count she was expecting to be eliminated early on has managed to form a gamebreaking alliance on his second day in the War.

Kill anything that gets close to Shirou? Now things are getting a bit crazy, and even Shirou will be trying to stop Berserker if he starts going after Saber or something like that.

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We haven't even got a "main heroine" yet....

Indeed, I'm not sure this story will even have one, as such. It seems like Mozco is intending to involve everyone, and whilst Shirou will certainly have a close relationship with Ilya at the end of this, I hope that it won't become sexual in nature, because Shirou is not a paedophile, and regardless of her actual age, Ilya looks like a ten-year-old. That, coupled with the fact that she's his sister makes a sexual relationship very hard to implement. Plus, even if one happened, Ilya wouldn't enjoy it, because she has the body of a child. Children are not supposed to have sex, and if she does so it will really fucking hurt.
Heh, well... the number of reviewers clamoring for an Ilya route keep piling up, but I really have not decided. If there is a single, main heroine, it will be Ilya, though all the girls will still have major roles. If there isn't a single main heroine, then it's just as easy to have Shirou decide that he simply can't choose between them.

It really, really depends on how Shirou and Ilya interact and if I actually start to see a romance flowing naturally from it as I write their scenes together. I can work either way into the plot easily enough, and both have their pros and cons. An Ilya romance would make certain plot points near the end work much more easily, and would definitely add more emotion to their interactions throughout. And... to be blunt, I'm actually an Ilya fan, and I like the thought of her finally landing her Shirou. I've even written out the confession scene already, just in case I get a chance to use it.

But it would also make their relationship far more complicated to write and take much more work to develop. I wonder, really, how well I could pull it off...
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Old 2010-10-15, 09:10   Link #189
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Originally Posted by GDB View Post
It's coined the "Ilya Route". There's obviously a main heroine, even if other characters are getting adequate screen time.
No, it's not. Mozco has said nothing of the sort.

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Because it's impossible for souls to transfer bodies in the nasuverse? There are at least two examples of such a thing occurring in FSN alone.
Yes, but the soul overwrites the body, so Ilya would just turn back into a loli again....

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They aren't blood related, and they've known each other for about a day at this point. They're less like siblings than Shirou and Sakura are by this point.
Yes, but Shirou will naturally think of her as a sibling. That and as a little girl in need of protection. Sexual attraction seems very hard to come by.

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Besides, as said it's not impossible for her to get a new body, and in fact is rather necessary for her to not die a year after the war. You know, that whole "good ending" thing.
Yes, this is true. However, it requires the romance to develop before she gets such a body, and I don't see Shirou going for that.

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Originally Posted by Moczo View Post
Depends on how much of a psychotic mess I want to make this next chapter, and how well Berserker interprets 'Protect Shirou'. Kill anything that attacks Shirou? In this case, Shirou and Rin are both smart enough not to screw with the non-hostile Doom Giant, I think, and Rider and Shinji are pretty well screwed.
Well, I'm hoping that Rider isn't screwed, because she dies first too damn often....

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Heh, well... the number of reviewers clamoring for an Ilya route keep piling up, but I really have not decided. If there is a single, main heroine, it will be Ilya, though all the girls will still have major roles. If there isn't a single main heroine, then it's just as easy to have Shirou decide that he simply can't choose between them.
Well, I'm clamouring for it to not be an Ilya route. Shirou is not a paedophile, and you don't just suddenly realise "you know what, I actually am attracted to little kids after all". Plus, Ilya doesn't need to be in such a relationship with Shirou. She's just as happy having him as a brother as having him as a lover, and it allows her to "grow up" at her own pace rather than being forced to grow up rapidly due to the relationship.

Seriously, Shirou x Ilya simply does not make sense, and having a bunch of lolicons begging you to write it does not make it make more sense.

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And... to be blunt, I'm actually an Ilya fan, and I like the thought of her finally landing her Shirou.
The thing is, she doesn't actually want Shirou in that way. She just wants a big brother. In so far as she feels any attraction towards him, it's purely because she doesn't know what she's thinking.

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But it would also make their relationship far more complicated to write and take much more work to develop. I wonder, really, how well I could pull it off...
Well, honestly, I can't see it working at all.
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Old 2010-10-15, 09:16   Link #190
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Heh, well... the number of reviewers clamoring for an Ilya route keep piling up, but I really have not decided.
Even as a Saber/Shirou fan, I'm going to add in my own small request that if you can somehow find a way, to make it an Ilya route. But in the end it's your decision, and I'll read it regardless of how it all turns out.

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I've even written out the confession scene already, just in case I get a chance to use it.
Maybe I should do that for my main couple in "Rain".... might make the writing process for chapter 3 flow a little easier than it has been lately....

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But it would also make their relationship far more complicated to write and take much more work to develop. I wonder, really, how well I could pull it off...
Speaking as a long time fan of your work and as your friend, I have all the faith in you that you can pull it off if it's something you really want to do. And considering your past track record of pulling off impossible things, I'd say you have a pretty good chance of getting it right for Chaos Theory.
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Old 2010-10-15, 09:33   Link #191
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cherry_Lover View Post

Well, I'm clamouring for it to not be an Ilya route. Shirou is not a paedophile, and you don't just suddenly realise "you know what, I actually am attracted to little kids after all". Plus, Ilya doesn't need to be in such a relationship with Shirou. She's just as happy having him as a brother as having him as a lover, and it allows her to "grow up" at her own pace rather than being forced to grow up rapidly due to the relationship.

Seriously, Shirou x Ilya simply does not make sense, and having a bunch of lolicons begging you to write it does not make it make more sense.
Well, it wouldn't be so much 'realizing he's attracted young girls' to realizing he's attracted to her, no matter what she looks like. And she is such a blank slate that her emotions towards him could develop any number of ways. She grows to love him very quickly and easily whenever they interact, all it requires is changing the nature of that love.

I think it could be done believably. I'm just not sure I could do it believably...


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Originally Posted by RadiantBeam View Post
Even as a Saber/Shirou fan, I'm going to add in my own small request that if you can somehow find a way, to make it an Ilya route. But in the end it's your decision, and I'll read it regardless of how it all turns out.
Good to hear. It might, it might not... though I will say I'm consistently surprised by how many people seem to want it to. If I had to guess I'd say it's probably just because if you think about Ilya, she really is the only girl who gets 'bittersweet' or 'bad' in every single ending. People want to see the Ilya Good End, maybe?

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Maybe I should do that for my main couple in "Rain".... might make the writing process for chapter 3 flow a little easier than it has been lately....
Couldn't hurt. I'm not a big fan of outlining, but I do often write out later scenes as I think of them and then use that as a guide to fill in the blanks in the middle.

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Speaking as a long time fan of your work and as your friend, I have all the faith in you that you can pull it off if it's something you really want to do. And considering your past track record of pulling off impossible things, I'd say you have a pretty good chance of getting it right for Chaos Theory.
My main concern is that if you look through my work... I've never done a serious romance before. I would rather not write it than write it poorly, because that doesn't do the story, the characters, or the relationship justice. That said, I have written out chunks of it, just as preparation to have the relationship go either way, and... well... it doesn't seem bad. I'm not a great judge, admittedly, but it seems okay to me.
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Old 2010-10-15, 09:43   Link #192
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I think it could be done believably. I'm just not sure I could do it believably...
We believe in you.

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Couldn't hurt. I'm not a big fan of outlining, but I do often write out later scenes as I think of them and then use that as a guide to fill in the blanks in the middle.
Personally, I'm a fan of outlining stories. Not hard outlining, like making a broad sense of each scene, but knowing where you want to go and what needs to be done to get there. IMO that's what separates something amazing like FMA from other long running series that just constantly pull plot ideas out of nowhere to do what they need.

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My main concern is that if you look through my work... I've never done a serious romance before. I would rather not write it than write it poorly, because that doesn't do the story, the characters, or the relationship justice. That said, I have written out chunks of it, just as preparation to have the relationship go either way, and... well... it doesn't seem bad. I'm not a great judge, admittedly, but it seems okay to me.
I wouldn't really call any of the romances in FSN to be "serious romances", not in the sense of the narrative anyway. The pairings are good because the characters are good, not because it has intimate descriptions of their love.
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Old 2010-10-15, 10:01   Link #193
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I'm just going to play Devil's Advocate here.

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Originally Posted by Cherry_Lover View Post
Yes, but Shirou will naturally think of her as a sibling. That and as a little girl in need of protection. Sexual attraction seems very hard to come by.
Really? Because he views Sakura as part of his family and as a fragile girl in need of protection prior to the events of the visual novel--and yes, as much is explicitly stated--yet he develops a sexual attraction to her in Heaven's Feel because he has noticed her growing more attractive. Ilya is obviously not womanly, but she is quite pretty, and she has the same sort of pristine beauty that draws him to Saber.

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Yes, this is true. However, it requires the romance to develop before she gets such a body, and I don't see Shirou going for that.
So we're conflating romance and sexuality, then? I suppose that's an easy reflex given that we're dealing with an eroge and Shirou is a healthy young man, but the Shirou we are presented throughout F/SN is drawn to a sense of purity, something worth protecting, far more than any other factor. Saber is a living monument to that quality, Rin has a side of it buried beneath the Tsuntsun, Sakura has kept it deep inside her, unbreakable in the face of all the horror she has been subjected to. Ilya has it, too, in her childish naivete.

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Well, I'm clamouring for it to not be an Ilya route. Shirou is not a paedophile, and you don't just suddenly realise "you know what, I actually am attracted to little kids after all".
Again, you're conflating sexuality and romance here, which is folly. The former stems from the latter, or it certainly seems to in Shirou's case.

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Plus, Ilya doesn't need to be in such a relationship with Shirou. She's just as happy having him as a brother as having him as a lover.
Nobody needs a relationship with Shirou. It's always a case of want, and the single change Moczo introduced could, if done well, create a real distinct niche for that want, and it wouldn't be particularly hard.

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and it allows her to "grow up" at her own pace rather than being forced to grow up rapidly due to the relationship.
And she would be forced to grow up rapidly how, exactly?

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Seriously, Shirou x Ilya simply does not make sense, and having a bunch of lolicons begging you to write it does not make it make more sense.
It's a bit crass to throw labels around like that on the assumption that everyone is thinking in sexual terms. There is romance that is not sexual, you know. But more to the point, you've failed to make a good case as to why the pairing is nonsensical. Ilya possesses the primary qualifications to warrant Shirou's attraction to her personality, and Shirou is an entirely different type of person from what she has ever encountered before, so the possible reactions she could have are endless.

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The thing is, she doesn't actually want Shirou in that way. She just wants a big brother. In so far as she feels any attraction towards him, it's purely because she doesn't know what she's thinking.
So, she doesn't know what she's thinking, except that she doesn't want Shirou romantically? That's rather contrived. But of course she wouldn't know what she's thinking: she has never encountered someone like Shirou. She has experience with affection, certainly, but both of her/their parents are entirely different sorts of people from Shirou himself. She begins the process wanting to take revenge on Kiritsugu through him. How they develop from there is an entirely open question.

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Well, honestly, I can't see it working at all.
Presumably because you don't want to? Because you haven't produced sufficient logic to support your assertions.
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Old 2010-10-15, 10:17   Link #194
Cherry_Lover
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Originally Posted by Ricky Controversy View Post
Really? Because he views Sakura as part of his family and as a fragile girl in need of protection prior to the events of the visual novel--and yes, as much is explicitly stated--yet he develops a sexual attraction to her in Heaven's Feel because he has noticed her growing more attractive.
Except that this is not entirely true. He was attracted to her prior to the VN, he was just in denial.

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Ilya is obviously not womanly, but she is quite pretty, and she has the same sort of pristine beauty that draws him to Saber.
Ilya is obviously cute, in the same sense as my little sister or my pet dog/cat is cute. She's not 'pretty'. She's too young for that.

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So we're conflating romance and sexuality, then? I suppose that's an easy reflex given that we're dealing with an eroge and Shirou is a healthy young man, but the Shirou we are presented throughout F/SN is drawn to a sense of purity, something worth protecting, far more than any other factor. Saber is a living monument to that quality, Rin has a side of it buried beneath the Tsuntsun, Sakura has kept it deep inside her, unbreakable in the face of all the horror she has been subjected to. Ilya has it, too, in her childish naivete.
The thing is, whilst all this is true, he can protect Ilya as a brother far more easily than he can as a lover. It's a far more natural development, and neither of them have any reason to make it go a different way.

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Again, you're conflating sexuality and romance here, which is folly. The former stems from the latter, or it certainly seems to in Shirou's case.
You can't have a romantic relationship without sexual attraction, especially not with someone who can very naturally be considered to be 'family'. Take Sakura, for instance. Shirou clearly cares deeply about her from the very start, but it is only the fact that the circumstances of HF force him to realise how attractive he really finds her that allows an actual romantic relationship to develop.

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Nobody needs a relationship with Shirou. It's always a case of want, and the single change Moczo introduced could, if done well, create a real distinct niche for that want, and it wouldn't be particularly hard.
Yes, and Ilya doesn't want one either....

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And she would be forced to grow up rapidly how, exactly?
Well, getting into a romantic relationship with Shirou would force her to be a lot more mature than just being his little sister would.

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It's a bit crass to throw labels around like that on the assumption that everyone is thinking in sexual terms. There is romance that is not sexual, you know.
I don't buy that. The whole point of romance is that it is sexual in nature (that doesn't mean that you have find your partner stunning, but you still have to be willing to actually have sex with them, ultimately). Otherwise it's called a friendship. True, it is possible for a couple to remain together after their sex life disappears, but in that case they're more like close friends with a strong commitment to each other than they are a romantic pairing.

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But more to the point, you've failed to make a good case as to why the pairing is nonsensical. Ilya possesses the primary qualifications to warrant Shirou's attraction to her personality, and Shirou is an entirely different type of person from what she has ever encountered before, so the possible reactions she could have are endless.
The fact that Ilya looks like she is ten and acts somewhat like a little girl isn't enough for you?

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So, she doesn't know what she's thinking, except that she doesn't want Shirou romantically? That's rather contrived. But of course she wouldn't know what she's thinking: she has never encountered someone like Shirou. She has experience with affection, certainly, but both of her/their parents are entirely different sorts of people from Shirou himself. She begins the process wanting to take revenge on Kiritsugu through him. How they develop from there is an entirely open question.
She never shows any signs of wanting him romantically. To me, they make far better siblings than they do lovers.

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Presumably because you don't want to? Because you haven't produced sufficient logic to support your assertions.
Like I said, Shirou is not a lolicon. Ilya looks too young, acts too young and there is too high a barrier in Shirou's mind in terms of romantic feelings towards her. I mean, it took him over a year to realise how he felt about Sakura, and she is a) more sexually attractive that Ilya (not being a child) and b) less obviously "family" (even though Shirou and Ilya are not blood-related, she is still the daughter of his father, and so he will see her as a sister).
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Old 2010-10-15, 10:49   Link #195
Ricky Controversy
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Originally Posted by Cherry_Lover View Post
Except that this is not entirely true. He was attracted to her prior to the VN, he was just in denial.
If we go there, then he developed an attraction for her at the same time he felt she was family, which makes your original argument even more of a non-issue.

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Ilya is obviously cute, in the same sense as my little sister or my pet dog/cat is cute. She's not 'pretty'. She's too young for that.
Pretty: Pleasing to the eye as by delicacy or gracefulness. So, yes, she is pretty.

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The thing is, whilst all this is true, he can protect Ilya as a brother far more easily than he can as a lover. It's a far more natural development, and neither of them have any reason to make it go a different way.
Far more easily? What do you mean by that?

As for it being a far more natural development, how do you back that up? They don't have a pre-existing brother/sister relationship. Shirou is unaware of her before the events of F/SN, and Ilya sees him as a target of wrath. Any sort of positive bond they may have starts from the same point: square one. Just because they in the legal sense step-siblings is no reason to insist they'd just up and fall into that relationship.

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You can't have a romantic relationship without sexual attraction, especially not with someone who can very naturally be considered to be 'family'. Take Sakura, for instance. Shirou clearly cares deeply about her from the very start, but it is only the fact that the circumstances of HF force him to realise how attractive he really finds her that allows an actual romantic relationship to develop.
Excuse me, no. Speaking as an asexual, I'll tell you it's entirely possible to have a romantic relationship without sexual attraction, and I don't imagine that a sexual person always has their romantic impulse triggered by a desire be sexual with a person. Sometimes, you're just plain in love with someone. But, unfortunately, if you genuinely believe romantic love can't exist without sexual attraction, then there's no way for either of us to gain any traction here, since I adamantly disbelieve that.

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Yes, and Ilya doesn't want one either....
You're ignoring the whole point of this story, then, which is a 'for-want-of-a-nail' story, in which Ilya and Shirou's way of relating to each other is changed at the very beginning. The possibilities are wide open.

Even if we were inexplicably binding ourselves to strict canon, on what grounds do you say that? Ilya is characterized primarily as wanting to 'possess' Shirou in some way, and how specifically she wants to possess him is not ever really addressed. The degree to which she becomes interested in him makes any case you want to make viable, and all you're really working with to make the siblings-only case are...

A) That they happen to be adopted even though this has never actually had any bearing on them in their entire lives and
B) That she calls him "Onii-chan", which is a term young children use to describe young-adult men affectionately. For full adults, it's often "Oji-san", and for elders "Ojii-san." Doesn't actually mean anything else given that she's trying to kill him for a good part of the time she's calling him that.

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Well, getting into a romantic relationship with Shirou would force her to be a lot more mature than just being his little sister would.
Where are you getting that assumption from? Presumably it's something about Shirou that you feel demands greater maturity on her part? But I don't see it. Shirou matures a bit in each route, but remains largely a straightforward man in the extreme, and his relationships with the three heroines in the game are defined by single-mindedness. I just don't see it being enough of a complexity for it to force Ilya into anything.

Even if we cede that thought and say "Yes, Ilya will be forced to grow up faster", why is that not a story worth telling? It'd basically make the story the same theme for Ilya as it ultimately is for Shirou: coming of age. If we're going to complain about people being very suddenly forced to grow up, then we probably shouldn't be in the F/SN forums at all.

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I don't buy that. The whole point of romance is that it is sexual in nature (that doesn't mean that you have find your partner stunning, but you still have to be willing to actually have sex with them, ultimately). Otherwise it's called a friendship. True, it is possible for a couple to remain together after their sex life disappears, but in that case they're more like close friends with a strong commitment to each other than they are a romantic pairing.
And I don't buy that at all, unless you want to tell every asexual person on the planet that they're not capable of romance just because they're not concerned with sliding some external organs together.

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The fact that Ilya looks like she is ten and acts somewhat like a little girl isn't enough for you?
In the context of F/SN, no. Given the range of things Shirou ignores for romance with Saber, Rin and Sakura, your only grounds for complaining about the issues with Ilya is your own sense of squick. Speaking from a literary analysis standpoint of Shirou's character, there's nothing in Ilya that makes romance with her beyond reach.

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She never shows any signs of wanting him romantically. To me, they make far better siblings than they do lovers.
She never shows any specific signs of wanting him to be her brother, either. All we are shown is that she has a very strong want for him that starts off as wanting to 'possess' him in some way, and if it is to mature either way, either the sibling path or lover path is wide open, but neither is favored in terms of what is shown about her character.

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Like I said, Shirou is not a lolicon. Ilya looks too young, acts too young and there is too high a barrier in Shirou's mind in terms of romantic feelings towards her.
And you get this where? Even if I make a concession to your idea that sexuality has to be involved, he sure seemed riled up enough when she was straddling him in the chair in the castle in one of the bad ends. You appear to be reading your own feelings into Shirou quite a bit.

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I mean, it took him over a year to realise how he felt about Sakura, and she is a) more sexually attractive that Ilya (not being a child) and b) less obviously "family" (even though Shirou and Ilya are not blood-related, she is still the daughter of his father, and so he will see her as a sister).
Except that Sakura is actually MORE family, given that prior to all of this, Shirou and Ilya never had any kind of relationship at all, regardless of how they are abstractly connected. Shirou is very clearly presented as someone whose sense of family is rooted in the nature of his connections with people. Kiritsugu became his genuine father because he was able to look up to that man and model him in the way a son does a father. Taiga and Sakura became family to him because that's the way they relate to each other day to day.

Ilya's slate is blank at the outset, and the events of the Holy Grail War will be the first say in how they grow together, if at all.
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Old 2010-10-15, 12:27   Link #196
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I'm not going to comment much on the romance thing, but I will toss this out: CL, if the thought of Ilya possibly ending up with Shirou in Chaos Theory bothers you so much, why not just write your own fic where he doesn't end up in a romantic relationship with her? That would resolve the problem rather nicely, I think.
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Old 2010-10-15, 13:29   Link #197
Cherry_Lover
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Originally Posted by Ricky Controversy View Post
Pretty: Pleasing to the eye as by delicacy or gracefulness. So, yes, she is pretty.
Well, you know what I meant. The point is that there is (hopefully) no sexual attraction there.

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Just because they in the legal sense step-siblings is no reason to insist they'd just up and fall into that relationship.
Yes, it does, because that is how Shirou thinks.

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Excuse me, no. Speaking as an asexual, I'll tell you it's entirely possible to have a romantic relationship without sexual attraction, and I don't imagine that a sexual person always has their romantic impulse triggered by a desire be sexual with a person. Sometimes, you're just plain in love with someone. But, unfortunately, if you genuinely believe romantic love can't exist without sexual attraction, then there's no way for either of us to gain any traction here, since I adamantly disbelieve that.
However, Shirou is not asexual, so I'd imagine that he does have an interest in having sex with his romantic partners (FSN certainly lends credence to this...). Also, I'm not sure how a non-sexual romantic relationship differs from a plain frendship.

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You're ignoring the whole point of this story, then, which is a 'for-want-of-a-nail' story, in which Ilya and Shirou's way of relating to each other is changed at the very beginning. The possibilities are wide open.
That doesn't change their fundamental personalities, though.

Even if we were inexplicably binding ourselves to strict canon, on what grounds do you say that? Ilya is characterized primarily as wanting to 'possess' Shirou in some way, and how specifically she wants to possess him is not ever really addressed.

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The degree to which she becomes interested in him makes any case you want to make viable, and all you're really working with to make the siblings-only case are...

A) That they happen to be adopted even though this has never actually had any bearing on them in their entire lives and
B) That she calls him "Onii-chan", which is a term young children use to describe young-adult men affectionately. For full adults, it's often "Oji-san", and for elders "Ojii-san." Doesn't actually mean anything else given that she's trying to kill him for a good part of the time she's calling him that.
This will matter to Shirou, and doubly so given the situation. Shirou sees her as a little girl he needs to protect (he has already gotten that impression from their first meeting), and I find it very hard to see him going past that, especially when he finds out that she is Kiritsugu's daughter. I know that it doesn't in theory matter one bit since he is adopted, but Shirou won't see it that way.

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Where are you getting that assumption from? Presumably it's something about Shirou that you feel demands greater maturity on her part? But I don't see it. Shirou matures a bit in each route, but remains largely a straightforward man in the extreme, and his relationships with the three heroines in the game are defined by single-mindedness. I just don't see it being enough of a complexity for it to force Ilya into anything.
Getting into any kind of romantic relationship requires maturity, especially if you want it to actually last, and doubly so when the other person is an adult.

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Even if we cede that thought and say "Yes, Ilya will be forced to grow up faster", why is that not a story worth telling? It'd basically make the story the same theme for Ilya as it ultimately is for Shirou: coming of age. If we're going to complain about people being very suddenly forced to grow up, then we probably shouldn't be in the F/SN forums at all.
However, I'd say that it's not good for her.

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And I don't buy that at all, unless you want to tell every asexual person on the planet that they're not capable of romance just because they're not concerned with sliding some external organs together.
Well, you can have an emotional connection to someone without sex, but I honestly can't see how that differs from a close friendship or, indeed, a familial relationship. In fact, this is almost exactly how people feel for close members of their family (strong emotional connection but no physical attraction).

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Except that Sakura is actually MORE family, given that prior to all of this, Shirou and Ilya never had any kind of relationship at all, regardless of how they are abstractly connected. Shirou is very clearly presented as someone whose sense of family is rooted in the nature of his connections with people. Kiritsugu became his genuine father because he was able to look up to that man and model him in the way a son does a father. Taiga and Sakura became family to him because that's the way they relate to each other day to day.
This is true, yes. However, he quickly comes to see Ilya as a little child who needs affection and to be protected, and thus takes up a "big brother" role even before he knows their true relationship. Plus, whilst he does indeed seem to consider his 'true' family to be the people who he is closest to (Taiga and Sakura), he is also quite clearly a strong believer in the idea that you should care for your true family, hence why he pushes Rin and Sakura's relationship in HF (who are pretty much a perfect example of two people who are family by birth but not by their connections, and yet still care deeply for one another), so I would see him treating Ilya as a little sister.

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Originally Posted by RadiantBeam View Post
I'm not going to comment much on the romance thing, but I will toss this out: CL, if the thought of Ilya possibly ending up with Shirou in Chaos Theory bothers you so much, why not just write your own fic where he doesn't end up in a romantic relationship with her? That would resolve the problem rather nicely, I think.
Well, I am writing several fics, in fact, although none of them are remotely Ilya-centric (I do intend to give her a good end in the ones where she is not already dead at the beginning, though, if I can). However, I'm not going to clone Mozco's fic just because I don't like the way that he's taking it (if he does indeed go for an Ilya x Shirou relationship), so this is a somewhat meaningless statement.
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Old 2010-10-15, 13:33   Link #198
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Originally Posted by Cherry_Lover View Post
Well, I am writing several fics, in fact, although none of them are remotely Ilya-centric (I do intend to give her a good end in the ones where she is not already dead at the beginning, though, if I can). However, I'm not going to clone Mozco's fic just because I don't like the way that he's taking it (if he does indeed go for an Ilya x Shirou relationship), so this is a somewhat meaningless statement.
You misunderstand what I said. I didn't say "You should totally clone Chaos Theory", I said write your own fic where Shirou isn't with Ilya instead of complaining about the fact that Moczo might have them enter a romantic relationship in his fic, and then trying to justify why you dislike it in a debate about romance. You kill two birds with one stone in that scenario, and everyone walks away happy. I mean, heck, you might be a very good fic writer, but we'll never know if you don't post any of them here.
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Old 2010-10-15, 13:52   Link #199
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Well, I intend to post them at some point, but I have to write them first, and I'm somewhat stuck on the one fic at the moment. Although, most of them would make precisely zero sense to most of the people on this forum, since they're very much Sakura-centric and my main fic is actually set in Fate/Zero.
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Old 2010-10-15, 19:23   Link #200
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I feel the need to point out that originally Nasu planned for one of the bad ends to involve Ilya raping Shirou... This doesn't mean that canon Ilya would do that, but it's not impossible she could develop sexual feelings for Shirou.

Also I want some good Berserker scenes! I like this fic quite a bit.
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