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Old 2010-10-17, 15:24   Link #121
KidKoolAid
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I was rewatching some old naruto fights and what annoys me is the spamming of the clone technique. I understand using them as diversions, but i will be glad when he do his techniques with his own power and hand and without the help of two clones making his wind technique for him.
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Old 2010-10-17, 18:14   Link #122
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Originally Posted by Nobodyman9 View Post
Let me clarify, I don't hate Naruto, I hate what Kishi's done to it. I still read Naruto because it used to be a good and solid series and because as long as I'm on the train already I may as well see where it ends. And hey, it's just fun to rag on how utterly stupid it's become.
You know, I have the same problem with Bleach and I used to post in the sub forum just to express my frustration. The main difference being that almost everyone does it. I'm of the opinion that while it may be fun to deride the series, there are a few people that still enjoy it for what it is, and it might be vexing to them. I don't really post in the Bleach sub-forum anymore, but I imagine some of the people there might have been annoyed at my one-liners.

I don't mind criticism, but I just realized that there are ways to criticize without putting other people's taste into question.

I should just drop Bleach, really, and I've thought about it but then, what would I do with those extra 5-10 minutes on a Friday afternoon.. I don't know, I just don't know.
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Old 2010-10-17, 18:21   Link #123
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Bleach? More like 5 seconds.
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Old 2010-10-17, 19:37   Link #124
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Say what? It is Dr. Common Sense

Dr. Common Sense strikes knowledge to all you weaklings; listen and learn.

I am tired and sick of all this complaints of how Naruto this and Naruto that...I have not seen one comment that has grounds for complaints. I dare you to prove me wrong.
I am fed up of these dried up wannabes who know nothing about the series suddenly becoming an expert on Narutopedia. Please don’t post comments alleging of how the dead are arising, Naruto’s power ups, Kishi’s lack of creativity…need I say more.
Let me address to you all by saying if don’t know much about Naruto I suggest reading from the first chapter because since its creation it has maintained a consistent level of storytelling, masterful artwork and so forth. It is irritating when someone with little knowledge about the series criticizes on baseless grounds. It is not a sin to admit that you don’t know but to blame the author and the manga is degrading. If you don’t like the series then please stop reading it, no one is putting a gun to your head.
Now let’s get on with the questions raised shall we? I don’t know why everyone kept saying how Deidra could come back alive since he was obliterated. Then add to say that Kishi is using old foes and lacking on coming up with new one is just tasteless. If you actually pay attention to the jutsu, it doesn’t revive the person from the grave literally in physical terms but bring back their soul. I think there is a difference between soul and body if I am not mistaken. The first and second hokage’s body Orochimaru used was different people.
The second thing is how Naruto lacks power ups or something between Naruto not acquiring enough Justsus or learning new Jutsus. Let me clarify by saying that what makes a good shinobi is not how much jutsus he knows or can aptly demonstrate but using the given resources adamantly. This is Naruto’s forte; it is what makes him a genius, his ability to improvise according to his surroundings. It is not the size that matters but how you use it.
Next time a one on one conversation with Dr. Common Sense, please stay tuned…(cheeky music…da..da..)
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Old 2010-10-17, 20:37   Link #125
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I remember Jiraiya dealing with this in part I when he was fighting Orochimaru. How he was saying it wasn't about the amount of jutsu but resolve. *shrug* Not that Naruto even lacks jutsu with his Kuchiyose, where the frogs can actually do the suiton and the genjutsu for him.
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Old 2010-10-17, 23:47   Link #126
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I can't wait till Deidara finds out Sasuke is alive. Orochibuto is pretty damn powerful. I see it now when he faces Naruto he is going to use Edo Tensei and resurrect Jiraiya. What's Naruto gonna do then?
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Old 2010-10-18, 00:37   Link #127
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Originally Posted by 9TailsOfDestruction View Post
Orochibuto is pretty damn powerful. I see it now when he faces Naruto he is going to use Edo Tensei and resurrect Jiraiya. What's Naruto gonna do then?
There were some who thought Kishi might do that with Pain using Jiraiya as a body. But I would hate to bring back Jiraiya. If Edo Tensei is overused it becomes a bad plot device. There has to be a limit to it. Otherwise it just becomes a joke. Zombie Kushina. Zombie Haku. Zombie Asuma. Zombie Zabuza. Zombie Kimimaro. Zombie Nawaki. No one stays in the ground.

I guess it is clear now that we have zombies and Zetsu fodder because Kishi didn't want to create new villains. Why create someone new when you can bring back an already developed character like Deidara? But I hope these are the only zombies we see.

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Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n View Post
BTW it seems that Naruto is evolving quite simlarily to DB/DBZ:
- the kage level now is becoming basic level, like SSJ level became basic in DBZ
- more and more people are being somehow resurrected from the dead, even if Kishimoto will not make this thing free as it was in DB
- more and more fighters can fly now, even Sasuke got his bird summon, so i wonder if Naruto will soon be able to fly
- seems like the old characters of part one are being completely left behind in power level, here it's the former genins like in DB were Krillin, Chaozu, etc.
- Madara is becoming quite simlar to Cell, the way he is being engineered from the cells of Shodaime, using Nagato for the eyes, the countless Uchiha sharingan eyes being used, just like Cell was constructed from the collected cells of the strongest fighters
All these things reminded me of what I disliked about DBZ. And yeah, there are some similarities to what is happening in Naruto.
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Old 2010-10-18, 07:30   Link #128
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I think tsuchikage flying technique is a kekkei genki. If Madara fought him wouldnt he of copied it.
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Old 2010-10-18, 08:36   Link #129
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Originally Posted by ibexwalya View Post
Dr. Common Sense strikes knowledge to all you weaklings; listen and learn.

I am tired and sick of all this complaints of how Naruto this and Naruto that...I have not seen one comment that has grounds for complaints. I dare you to prove me wrong.
I am fed up of these dried up wannabes who know nothing about the series suddenly becoming an expert on Narutopedia. Please don’t post comments alleging of how the dead are arising, Naruto’s power ups, Kishi’s lack of creativity…need I say more.
Let me address to you all by saying if don’t know much about Naruto I suggest reading from the first chapter because since its creation it has maintained a consistent level of storytelling, masterful artwork and so forth. It is irritating when someone with little knowledge about the series criticizes on baseless grounds. It is not a sin to admit that you don’t know but to blame the author and the manga is degrading. If you don’t like the series then please stop reading it, no one is putting a gun to your head.
Now let’s get on with the questions raised shall we? I don’t know why everyone kept saying how Deidra could come back alive since he was obliterated. Then add to say that Kishi is using old foes and lacking on coming up with new one is just tasteless. If you actually pay attention to the jutsu, it doesn’t revive the person from the grave literally in physical terms but bring back their soul. I think there is a difference between soul and body if I am not mistaken. The first and second hokage’s body Orochimaru used was different people.
The second thing is how Naruto lacks power ups or something between Naruto not acquiring enough Justsus or learning new Jutsus. Let me clarify by saying that what makes a good shinobi is not how much jutsus he knows or can aptly demonstrate but using the given resources adamantly. This is Naruto’s forte; it is what makes him a genius, his ability to improvise according to his surroundings. It is not the size that matters but how you use it.
Next time a one on one conversation with Dr. Common Sense, please stay tuned…(cheeky music…da..da..)
Dr . common sense doesn’t seems to have too much sense at all,

First off, be careful of who are you calling wanabees, most of the members here have been posting in these forum for years, so they are hardly wanabees, however, in your case, you only have months posting around here, so you should be the last person doing that.

Second, While Kishi have made an interesting universe and story with lots of colorful character, it is hard to pass by the fact that, Kishi revived old and defeated bad guys and created a clone army for the sake to patch up a plot problem.

Any other writer would had just introduce us to new characters, instead of been lazy and just reviving old ones, including Itachi and Sasori. Itachi revival only diminished how powerful it was his Death, and Sasori revival only deletes the struggle and subsequent sacrifice of Chiyo. In a sense ,Kishi is just backstabbing himself, as he is just flat out saying that in his universe there are no more S-class Nin or rogue Ninjas available.

And please don’t tell people who have spent 5 years of their lives reading this manga to stop reading it, as reader and posters of this forum they have the right to complaint about it. I myself have found a lack of taste for reading this manga in the last 10 or 15 chapters, and the revivals of all these character plus the Star wars attack of the clones copy paste have only made things worst for me.
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Old 2010-10-18, 09:38   Link #130
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All these things reminded me of what I disliked about DBZ. And yeah, there are some similarities to what is happening in Naruto.
All those things can be summarized as power inflation which is a given for any story about fighting if it goes for any length of time.
As far as flying, there has been only 4 people with the ability and only Deidara really uses it as one of his gimmick.
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Old 2010-10-18, 11:00   Link #131
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Kishi is just backstabbing himself, as he is just flat out saying that in his universe there are no more S-class Nin or rogue Ninjas available.
...No more S-class or rogue ninjas available to Madara for whatever reason (not within his reach, not known to him, or unwilling to work with him, etc.). There are many, many possibilities. The one I'm accepting as truth is that Madara simply doesn't deem it necessary to recruit anymore people, considering the tools in his possession.

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And please don’t tell people who have spent 5 years of their lives reading this manga to stop reading it, as reader and posters of this forum they have the right to complaint about it.
You have a good point, but at the same time, it does get annoying to see certain people slam the author when, all of them put together probably couldn't reach 1/5 of Kishimoto's writing ability. Everyone has the right to speak their mind, but saying this author is "crappy" or can't write seems a bit contradictory when they return to read the next chapter every week...

Some chapters are of course better than others, and his talent may appear more apparent during some weeks than others, but I think its pretty clear how much of a excellent story teller he is, and so I understand some peoples(like dr. common sense up there) frustration when reading these kinds of posts. No author is without dry spells, or periods where they put out work that isn't their best... But dammit if a *spoiler* doesn't come out without some fanatic ranting and raving about some "plot-hole" they allegedly discovered, and it of course turns out that a) the alleged "plot-hole" is actually an entirely plausible and explainable development, and b) they don't even fully understand what the term "plot-hole" means, but pass it around as a buzzword anyway.

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I myself have found a lack of taste for reading this manga in the last 10 or 15 chapters, and the revivals of all these character plus the Star wars attack of the clones copy paste have only made things worst for me.
Well in regards to the clone army, if they were clones, humans, or pokemon, they would've been fodder anyway, and not terribly significant to the main story. Usually the army simply follows one of the main character's momentum.... So, when Naruto starts beating up whoever and making a comeback, the Konoha army will likely suddenly start winning.... They don't really mean much to the story regardless.

Last edited by Midnight Commander; 2010-10-18 at 11:16.
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Old 2010-10-18, 11:22   Link #132
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Well in regards to the clone army, if they were clones, humans, or pokemon, they would've been fodder anyway, and not terribly significant to the main story. Usually the army simply follows one of the main character's momentum.... So, when Naruto starts beating up whoever and making a comeback, the Konoha army will likely suddenly start winning.... They don't really mean much to the story regardless.
More than anything, it is the fact that there are so many more interesting ideas Kishimoto could have used without resorting to clones. Madara could have simply used the tailed beasts: crude, but effective, and once the armies were decimated, the beasts could be resealed. Or, Kishimoto could have expanded on all of those smaller villages that would have grievances against the larger villages, thereby creating an actual world war scenario (instead we have Madara's clones versus the world). Or, much the same as Oda does in One Piece, Kishimoto could have come up with some actual designs for mini-bosses, and had a few thousand very good, though still ultimately fodder, ninjas to combat the greater forces of the alliance. Hell, Madara could have even summoned an army of dead Uchiha to combat the world and really drive home the whole Uchiha angle of the story. Instead we get boring clones.
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Old 2010-10-18, 12:23   Link #133
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Madara could have simply used the tailed beasts: crude, but effective, and once the armies were decimated, the beasts could be resealed.
That's what I thought was going to happen in the first place. A Godzilla Destroy All Monsters-like rampage with the tailed beasts that the villagers would have to band together to combat. It would have been a perfect chance to show off some of the tailed beasts that we never saw in action as well. Madara really didn't need troops at all to wage this war. He's already holding 7 nukes.
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Old 2010-10-18, 12:28   Link #134
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Or found a way to turn the villages against each other to create the war that way. Something a master manipulator would do. This would setup interesting good guy versus good guy fights with Konoha as the focus. Still possible, but very unlikely now. It would have been a lot more interesting than what we have now. Good guys vs. evil guys who are mostly zombies or clones. So the good guys can kill as many as they want without any of the moral dilemmas that come with war.

I was thinking where Sasuke might pop back up. He is really stuck on the sidelines because of Naruto. He claimed his only target is now Naruto. I don't put any stock in Kishi's interviews(remember 2010 is the Year of Kakashi!) but he did say Sasuke vs. Naruto would be toward the end of the manga. So what can Sasuke do till then? He can't just stay on the shelf for another 200 chapters while the Alliance plays Protect the Flag with Naruto.

I believe the best thing would be for Sasuke to attack Konoha to test his eyes. He got Danzou so he should go for the elders. It's a great setup since you figure so many of the top Konoha forces are in Kumo right now. And it also would be a chance for the Konoha 11(I am pretty sure characters like Shika and maybe Neji are in Kumo though) to get some shine. Sasuke cannot kill any of the Konoha 11 for plot reasons, but he can hurt them. A lot of people were looking forward to Sasuke vs. the Rookies and Kishi just dropped it. Also it would teach Naruto another life lesson. He assumed that Konoha was safe since he convinced Sasuke to go after him instead of the village.
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Old 2010-10-18, 12:51   Link #135
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...You have a good point, but at the same time, it does get annoying to see certain people slam the author when, all of them put together probably couldn't reach 1/5 of Kishimoto's writing ability. Everyone has the right to speak their mind, but saying this author is "crappy" or can't write seems a bit contradictory when they return to read the next chapter every week...
Most people just do it out of habit, even if they do not like what they are reading they still do it out of habit. You can’t call Kishimoto a crappy writer- overall-, but he isn’t a genius either, and lately his quality in storytelling is decaying.

You don’t have to be a good writer to tell or say this... is like saying you can’t mention Dragon Ball the movie was crap just because you don’t have the directing ability of the movie director.

Regarding the clones, what James said. Kishi could had pulled an army no names like Oro had for his sound Village if is just fodders. Now instead we are going to see a war against an army of half naked man-plants. the fact of the number Kishi used for the army and that he used clones is a good indicator that Kishi just thought of that recently to solve his predicament with the upcoming war. Seems like Deux Ex to me.
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Old 2010-10-18, 12:55   Link #136
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I was thinking where Sasuke might pop back up. He is really stuck on the sidelines because of Naruto. He claimed his only target is now Naruto. I don't put any stock in Kishi's interviews(remember 2010 is the Year of Kakashi!) but he did say Sasuke vs. Naruto would be toward the end of the manga. So what can Sasuke do till then? He can't just stay on the shelf for another 200 chapters while the Alliance plays Protect the Flag with Naruto.

I believe the best thing would be for Sasuke to attack Konoha to test his eyes. He got Danzou so he should go for the elders. It's a great setup since you figure so many of the top Konoha forces are in Kumo right now. And it also would be a chance for the Konoha 11(I am pretty sure characters like Shika and maybe Neji are in Kumo though) to get some shine. Sasuke cannot kill any of the Konoha 11 for plot reasons, but he can hurt them. A lot of people were looking forward to Sasuke vs. the Rookies and Kishi just dropped it. Also it would teach Naruto another life lesson. He assumed that Konoha was safe since he convinced Sasuke to go after him instead of the village.
I would be shocked if Sasuke doesn't fight the Itachi zombie. Either the Itachi zombie breaks free from Kaubto's control and tries Round 2 of beat some sense into Sasuke. Or Sasuke tries to destroy the zombie because it is an affront to Itachi's memory. I don't think he would be happy to see Itachi as a plaything for Kabuto.

Kishimoto probably dropped the Rookie 9 vs Sasuke storyline because there was no way for him to make any battle between them believable. He already had Sasuke attempt and fail to kill Sakura(twice) and Karin. How would he explain the entire Konoha 11 surviving against Sasuke? A Sasuke who is crazy enough to think they are all laughing about Itachi. It would be too much of a replay of the Kage Summit battle. And we already had enough Sasuke fanservice. We need Rookie 9 fanservice.
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Old 2010-10-18, 13:06   Link #137
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I can't wait till Deidara finds out Sasuke is alive. Orochibuto is pretty damn powerful. I see it now when he faces Naruto he is going to use Edo Tensei and resurrect Jiraiya. What's Naruto gonna do then?
D:

That's the face I made when I came to the realization that it could happen. It never even crossed my mind.

I really, really, REALLY hope it doesn't happen. Jiraiya is one of the most beloved characters -- to use him with Edo Tensei would just be effed up. It'd really turn me off from reading the manga.
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Old 2010-10-18, 13:15   Link #138
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...No more S-class or rogue ninjas available to Madara for whatever reason (not within his reach, not known to him, or unwilling to work with him, etc.). There are many, many possibilities. The one I'm accepting as truth is that Madara simply doesn't deem it necessary to recruit anymore people, considering the tools in his possession.
He does not deem it necessary? one of the main reason Madara is caving to Kabuto's demand to join him is because madara realizes that fighting him would result in weakening his own battle strength. It was also said that the likely reason madara attempted negotiation at the summit was because he was not positive that he could win in a direct confrontation... Madara is NOT in a confident enough position where he would find extra s-class ninjas as "unnecessary"

Even the idea that the missingnin are not willing to work with him does not seem that great of a reason... afterall, most of Akatsuki were manipulated into helping him. He doesn't need these ninjas to actually identify with his plans, all he needs to do is find out what they want, and make a false promise to give them what they want.
Quote:
You have a good point, but at the same time, it does get annoying to see certain people slam the author when, all of them put together probably couldn't reach 1/5 of Kishimoto's writing ability.
That is one the most common and flawed arguments made to defend poor writing...
One does NOT need to be a great writer to realize weather or not another writer's abilities are good. Creating a story from scratch and analyzing a story are two very different things... a persona can be good at analyzing a story but at the same time not good at coming up with one on their own; creating a story from scratch can take a lot of time and imagination which someone with an analytical mind may not have, but just because they lack the imagination to come up with a story on their own does not mean they are not able to see the many faults that exist in a story... hell they may even have enough imagination on there own to see greater possibilities... and even if you have the imagination to create a story from scratch does not necessarily mean you have enough to make a truly great story

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Or found a way to turn the villages against each other to create the war that way. Something a master manipulator would do. This would setup interesting good guy versus good guy fights with Konoha as the focus.
I was thinking something similar when thinking about what Madara COULD have done... really, had madara not taken the nibi and did not attack the 8-tails, he could have made an attempt to manipulate the other sides like Rock and Mist into believe that Akatsuki was working with Cloud... one thing that aids such belief is that in this time when the other nations best weapons are being taken away we also have Cloud who has been continuing a military build up. They might even view the lack of former-cloud ninja as part of a ruse for Cloud to deny involvement. At the same time, Madara could manipulate Cloud into believing that Akatsuki id working with Rock and Mist as they have the past connection and that Rock and mist are just using lies to turn the ninja world against them.... this would all work out to creating a powder keg that could be easily lit

Madara probably could have also spent decades brining the smaller villages under his control so that if he did need a personal army to strike back he could exploit these smaller villages; though this would work best only after the major nations had beaten the crap out of each other... combined the smaller nations might be rather worthwhile in at least taking down one nation, such as kohona

Last edited by Slayerx; 2010-10-18 at 13:25.
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Old 2010-10-18, 13:22   Link #139
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You don’t have to be a good writer to tell or say this... is like saying you can’t mention Dragon Ball the movie was crap just because you don’t have the directing ability of the movie director.
I wasn't trying to say that someone had to be an A-class writer to voice their opinion. I was only pointing out that it was annoying reading unreasonable comments about Kishimoto's writing from people who themselves could never measure up to a fraction of his talent. Why? Because as I stated, every author has good and bad qualities and writing, so I don't think it makes sense for people call him a bad author based on his bad qualities when they[the bad qualities] are so outnumbered and overshadowed by the good ones.

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Regarding the clones, what James said. Kishi could had pulled an army no names like Oro had for his sound Village if is just fodders. Now instead we are going to see a war against an army of half naked man-plants. the fact of the number Kishi used for the army and that he used clones is a good indicator that Kishi just thought of that recently to solve his predicament with the upcoming war. Seems like Deux Ex to me.
Meh. In my opinion it doesn't mean much either way. The fodder fights will be insignificant at the end of the day, and will only serve as a reinforcing medium for displaying a characters momentum and resolve. At best, we'll probably see a team of ninjas form up together to produce some strong jutsu, of the caliber of what Sasuke and Madara are able to do themselves (similar to what those no-names did during the Asuma vs Kakazu and Hidan fight).

So, no-names fighting clones, no-names fighting huge beasts, or no-names fighting some other rag-tag no-name thug gang from the other cities; not much difference in my eyes; they'll all be relatively boring. Essentially none of them mean anything to us, since we don't know them (the beasts, rag-tag thugs, clones, fodder ninja), and no time will be wasted for us to know them to have any sentiment for any of them. The fight will just serve as a distraction, which we have enough of already (and more interesting ones at that, such as Kabuto's mysterious agenda).
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Old 2010-10-18, 13:28   Link #140
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All these things reminded me of what I disliked about DBZ. And yeah, there are some similarities to what is happening in Naruto.
You probably disliked it because all that became too common, too easy to do. But in Naruto there is always a price to pay or such powers are very unique to certain ninjas. We see how Edo Tensei was always a knowledge of one person at a time, and it is natural in shonen manga that the new user develops further the same jutsu, making it stronger, otherwise it would be quite boring, shonen manga is about constantly raising the level, just like modern western societies are about constrantly raising production and consumption. Edo tensei does not resurrect the person itself, it's only a zombie, so it's technically not like in DB/DBZ. Flying is also restricted to a very few persons, and most of them use a device to fly, so technically they can't fly. Sasuke uses a bird, Sai an ink-bird, Deidara a clay-bird, Konan uses paper, Gaara uses sand so it's either an elemental-based jutsu or a summoning jutsu. And i guess the stone kage uses an advanced earth element based ability, my guess is that he can manipulate gravity, since gravity is probably associated with the earth element, so he can make his own body zero gravity. And i expect Izanagi can make flying easy, since Madara just imagines he flies and it becomes a reality
Naruto will have demon-sage powers, he already did show demon chakra-arms against Sasuke and Orochimaru, so why not wings of chakra?
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