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Old 2010-10-12, 12:54   Link #21
rogerpepitone
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And now it is released!
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Old 2010-10-12, 17:27   Link #22
_eternal
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Yes! I doubt I'll find time to play this for a while, but it's been years since I played Ever 17 so I'm certainly looking forward to it. Might be a while before the rest of the series is translated too.
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Old 2010-10-12, 18:14   Link #23
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The Never7 project started back in August; GundamAce is making steady progress on it.
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Old 2010-10-17, 13:16   Link #24
4as
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So, I just finished playing Remember11 and oh wow, what can I say... its crap.
Mind you, its coming from a person who rated Ever17 as 11 out 10.
Remember11 is at best 6/10.
Plot twists are either predictable or lame, characters are boring, storytelling is full of cliche moments (*protagonist gets stabed* "Who...?" *turns around* You... YOU ARE...! *THE END*), and the settings is as blend as it could be: A hut at top of the snowy mountain and family house disguised as a bunker-like building in middle of snowy nowhere.
But its true that Remember11 starts great - the main plot twist is revealed instantly (tho, it would be hard to conceal it) and constant switches between main characters keeps you on the edge of the sit, however initial shock factor is slowly dispelled over those few hours it takes for Kokoro route to end. Furthermore personality switches turn out to be simply a gimmick and creators dont do anything note-worthy with it; Kokoro usually ends up running away from some person trying to kill her in Satoru's body, while Satoru in Kokoro's body is just killing time while waiting for next transfer. POINTLESS.
Basically whole storytelling reminds me of LOST (that TV show) - it starts great but with each season you start to notice that this isnt going anywhere, except for getting more silly by the minute. By the way, just like LOST it also puts a lot of references (to religion mostly) but it doesnt do anything with it - remove it and no one would notice.
To sum up it up, here is something from Remember11 - one of the TIPS mentions "Deus Ex Machina" and defines it as "a plot device whereby a previously intractable problem is suddenly and abruptly solved with a contrived introduction of a new character, ability, or object" also pointing it out that "its considered a poor storytelling", and guess what? Remember11 does exactly that; in Satoru's route a man shows up (never before introduced) and explains everything to him! With the lamest explanation ever by the way.
Final verdict: disappointing.
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Old 2010-10-17, 18:57   Link #25
Elvin
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It's really hit or miss. If you don't like mysteries and being thrown clues to figure out how everything fits together, it's really not for you. You were probably looking for something else when you signed up for it. There's no game that caters to everyone.

That said, I can't in good faith call this crap with all the real crap that's out there.
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Old 2010-10-17, 20:10   Link #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 4as View Post
Plot twists are either predictable or lame, characters are boring, storytelling is full of cliche moments (*protagonist gets stabed* "Who...?" *turns around* You... YOU ARE...! *THE END*)
Ever 17 has more boring moments than this, I'm sure of that.
And tell me where's the predictable part?

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and the settings is as blend as it could be: A hut at top of the snowy mountain and family house disguised as a bunker-like building in middle of snowy nowhere.
I don't understand why you like undersea but hate snowy mountain

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Originally Posted by 4as View Post
Kokoro usually ends up running away from some person trying to kill her in Satoru's body, while Satoru in Kokoro's body is just killing time while waiting for next transfer.
Are we reading the same thing?

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Originally Posted by 4as View Post
Remember11 does exactly that; in Satoru's route a man shows up (never before introduced) and explains everything to him! With the lamest explanation ever by the way.
His corpse appeared in Kokoro's route.
And why he just explained things like that, I guess you haven't got all the endings yet to know his relation with Satoru.
And I don't think it's lame if we consider the plan to summon BW
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Old 2010-10-17, 20:36   Link #27
Klashikari
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Considering the fact I've considered Ever17 as a masterpiece, remaining as an eternal recommended VN I would suggest to any of my peers, I was expecting a lot from Remember11 as well.

And suffice to say, my reaction is as follow: I'm quite disappointed in this Infinity episode.
Of course, I wasn't expecting a carbon copy of E17, but R11 was completely astray from its ambitious plot after a few hours. Anyhow, let's start a bit this review:

[Non Spoiler Part]
First and foremost, I must say that my first biggest issue with R11 was definitely the characters: I just barely could empathize with some of them, while I couldn't care less about the majority of them.
This is something that could be sidetracked in your conventional mystery plot, but for fictions such like R11, it just doesn't cut it: it just puts a severe issue with the tension and the drama that dwells with the characters' problems.
Because of this, it was extremely difficult for me to relate with most of them during the "climatic" portions of the story.
Worse, some characters are actually -complete plot devices- and hardly allow a proper flow of the story. It is extremely irritating for me as the reader to be basically left in the shadows when a said character knows something but for whatever reason just keep their trap shut: there is no foreshadowing or clues, it is an outright annoying attempt to conseal information that makes the whole mystery forced.

The plot itself was interesting, that's certain. And for that matter, I have no issue to admit that the setup wasn't slow on being appealing with a lot of events thrown at us.
In fact, R11 was able to give something that E17 couldn't: tension and sometimes creeps (although only with events, not really due to the characters).
Unlike E17 that was rather laidback with the succession of the events, R11 was showing the merciless situation occuring in Mount Akakura. It was certainly portrayed accurately in term of survival situation, and the tips were insightful enough to have a broad idea of the very harsh conditions.

Furthermore, the "switch" concept was clever and progressively becomes engrossing considering the random nature of its timing...at the beginning though.
However, the storytelling couldn't keep it up. While the pace was pretty decent, the presentation of the events and the successive revelations and twists weren't written with much consistency. For this very reason, the plot of R11 becomes bipolar: merciless with very occulted critical information, then suddenly unleashing information you could hardly even compute all at once, due to its brutal and inconsistent timing.
I understand why Satoru's route is only available once Kokoro's is done (a bit like a "question" arc, then an "answer" arc a la higurashi), however it just doesn't make sense for the plot to use devices to proceed with the twists, while the context could allow foreshadowing and so forth.

Such bipolarity becomes all too detrimental to a proper and progressive storytelling, which was well layered for E17.
The readers who were actively trying to figure what is going on and wondering what will be the fate of the characters quickly become unable overwhelmed by a sense of "futility" considering how unnatural everything is explained (which doesn't affect the credibility of the truth, but rather again the fashion of how the information is presented).

But my biggest gripe was probably how... unconclusive the ending was. I understand that no writer is bound to spoonfeed their readers with a smashing ending with everything explained. However, I see little to no reason for said writer not to include every tidbits in the plot.
This is where the TIPS system becomes a chore: whereas it was first used as a handy source of explanations of obscure terms, it becomes a source of information that neither the reader nor even the characters could figure out.
I believe it is fair play for the writer to confuse the readers with concepts and information that should only be assembled within a precise context. However, it is no fair when the "external" information itself is only offered when you go through an obnoxious number of bad ends whereas the "internal" information given by the plot is quite minimal.
I understand that you can only discover the intent and motivations of certain characters under specific and extreme situations, but even so, when it isn't enough to have the full puzzle, it is just worthless.

To add insult to the injury, the "ending" that is supposed to conclude the story is abruptly ended with 2 cliffhangers.
The problem isn't the reason of the cliffhangers since they could be expected beforehand. However, it leaves a very bad aftertaste for the reader, who was invested in the mystery and then being dumped halfway as if the following events due to these 2 cliffhangers weren't necessary, which is arguably the complete opposite.
And that very poor choice from the writers lower the chances for the readers to have a full idea of certain characters but also deny them to learn the true fate of the full cast.

In the end, I think the writers were too ambitious and definitely end up with a dead end regarding the possible events that would tie everything.
I can't say that R11 is bad: if it was, it would definitely not be able to entice curiosity and enjoyment in some occasions (although a good portion of the "humor" was pretty much misplaced).
However, there is really nothing that can elevate this game into a "great VN", regardless how deep the truth is considering the way to reach this truth is overly silly.

Nice, but nonetheless big disappointment.

[spoiler mode]
Spoiler for Remember11, end spoiler:

Last edited by Klashikari; 2010-10-17 at 20:49.
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Old 2010-10-17, 21:03   Link #28
Elvin
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^Don't agree that the chaos was the fault of the writer(s?) not being able to bring it all together. I'm sure the entire story outline's typed out in full somewhere in someone's harddrive.
I've said this before but I'll say it again. As a crappy writer hobbyist, I can tell you that it takes skill to be able to bring that much emotion out of a reader on purpose (be it admiration or rage) and balls of steel to end it how he did. Try even imagining something up that comes close.
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Old 2010-10-17, 21:11   Link #29
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I've only just finished Kokoro's route, but I'm prepared for the non-conclusive ending. As for your gripe about the characters, I guess I'm okay with most of them- the only one I hate is Mayuzumi, for obvious reasons. I like Kokoro and Yuni, don't know enough about Satoru to have an opinion on him, I find Yomogi likeable, and I don't really have an opinion on Hotori or Utsumi.

However, I have discovered something that may or may not shine more light- like Ever17, Remember11 has two Drama CDs- one that's a single disk (like 2035) and one that's told over the Character CDs (like After You've Gone, except there's 6 parts instead of 5.). But I understand that at the same time it may reveal nothing, but since Ever17's Drama CDs cleared up at least a few loose ends from the game, maybe this one will be the same.

I can't find them as mp3s online, however, and so I will have to buy the CDs. Fortunately, they're avaliable at cheap prices on the Japanese Amazon, so I'll buy them there. However, I haven't finished the game yet and my main priority is the Never7 translation, so it might be a while.
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Old 2010-10-17, 21:13   Link #30
Elvin
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^Are you playing the PSP version (with the rumored extended ending :3)?
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Old 2010-10-17, 21:19   Link #31
GundamAce
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I hate to disappoint you, but I think the "bonus" is a timeline of the Infinity series, not an extended ending. Specifically, the timeline goes in-depth on the days of Remember11, but doesn't say what happens after them. When I finish the game, however, I'll take a closer look at the PSP version just to be sure.

In addition, I read a statement by Nakazawa that says the vague ending of Remember11 was apparently intentional.
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Old 2010-10-17, 21:47   Link #32
GundamAce
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Oh, here's something interesting I found. Here's an article about the unsolved mysteries, taken from the Japanese wikipedia page of Remember11, taken from various interviews with Takumi Nakazawa:

In the original version of the game, Director Takumi Nakazawa admitted, "Not all of the information is presented." His assessment was that it was an unfinished work, and that people, "Would have to resign themselves and accept the information they were given." The cause, apparently, was, "I was not happy with the ultimate result, but it was too late to change it." "The fact that the truth had to be hidden was inevitable from the beginning." Again, he stressed the importance of seeing all 33 endings (31 of them being bad endings) to gain as much information as possible. "I understand this is unreasonable.", and to compensate for this, announced that a timeline of the Infinity series would be included in the PSP limited edition version of the game, attached to the walkthrough in a pamphlet in said version.

Nakazawa said, "It's in order to get those who played the PS2 version (the first release of Remember11 was on the PS2) to complete the story." He prepared the PSP version not only for new players on the PSP, but for disgruntled fans who bought the PS2 version. After taking into consideration those players, Nakazawa decided that the best way to assist these players was in the form of a timeline. Furthermore, he took several members of the staff into consideration, several who had different opinions on what the real truth was.

I'm having trouble directly translating the rest, but it basically says that the PSP version will be fun both for people who want clarity on the situation, and for people who have different ideas on what the truth is.

That's it. As for this timeline, I took a look at it in Japanese, and I think it's the "Infinity series timeline" that is featured on kgptzac's website. However, it also contains spoilers on Never7, so I might take a look at this timeline after I finish Remember11. That is to say, someone who finished Remember11 could check it out for themselves, but they risk spoiling themselves on Never7.

Of course, I could simply post all the R11 relevant events once I've finished playing the game and see what comes up. And of course, get the Drama CDs and see what new light they have to offer.
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Old 2010-10-17, 22:16   Link #33
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make it happen capt'n (-3-)-b
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Old 2010-10-18, 00:52   Link #34
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@Klashikari: I think some points you consider illogical can be explained.

Spoiler for Remember 11 spoilers:
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Old 2010-10-18, 01:12   Link #35
Tamad
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It's a real shame to see that R11 seems to be a step back rather than a step forward from E17. I'm still planning to give it a read whenever I have some free time, though perhaps it would be better if I lowered my expectations a tad bit before jumping in to it now. Then again, if it's hit or miss like Elvin says, then I'm hoping it's going t hit me where it really hurts.
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Old 2010-10-18, 05:28   Link #36
Klashikari
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Elvin View Post
^Don't agree that the chaos was the fault of the writer(s?) not being able to bring it all together. I'm sure the entire story outline's typed out in full somewhere in someone's harddrive.
I've said this before but I'll say it again. As a crappy writer hobbyist, I can tell you that it takes skill to be able to bring that much emotion out of a reader on purpose (be it admiration or rage) and balls of steel to end it how he did. Try even imagining something up that comes close.
I really disagree with the bold statement: writing a story like this ought to reveal the truth no matter the fashion, even in a silly way. Denying the tidbits of information that make the puzzle clear is by no mean an act of courage, but rather asinine.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GundamAce View Post
In the original version of the game, Director Takumi Nakazawa admitted, "Not all of the information is presented." His assessment was that it was an unfinished work, and that people, "Would have to resign themselves and accept the information they were given." The cause, apparently, was, "I was not happy with the ultimate result, but it was too late to change it." "The fact that the truth had to be hidden was inevitable from the beginning." Again, he stressed the importance of seeing all 33 endings (31 of them being bad endings) to gain as much information as possible. "I understand this is unreasonable.", and to compensate for this, announced that a timeline of the Infinity series would be included in the PSP limited edition version of the game, attached to the walkthrough in a pamphlet in said version.

Nakazawa said, "It's in order to get those who played the PS2 version (the first release of Remember11 was on the PS2) to complete the story." He prepared the PSP version not only for new players on the PSP, but for disgruntled fans who bought the PS2 version. After taking into consideration those players, Nakazawa decided that the best way to assist these players was in the form of a timeline. Furthermore, he took several members of the staff into consideration, several who had different opinions on what the real truth was.
I have no idea if I should simply shrug it off, facepalm or get angry. While it is nice to see the director himself admitting flaws of the story, it is really a wonder why they didn't bother at all, be it with the original release or the PSP release (be it delivering the complete work with the PS2 release, or improving the port version of the PSP considering it is release 5 years later).
Instead of offering a complete story, they deliver a unfinished one and use the mystery card in order to get away with that. I say this because depending of the genre, such device is impossible to setup without any real backlash (A conventional detective novel would turn its fanbase dead angry if the author doesn't include the "solution" sequence and the arrestation of the culprit, a romance driven novel would be considered foul play if a non triangle couple just doesn't go on after a certain point etc).
I can understand Nakazawa for not liking the final result, but was he really satisfied with an unfinished work? I really doubt that and I wonder if he imagined the readers' point of view, especially we do -not- have all information unlike him.

Suffice to say, the fact he and the other staff members were sharing a different opinions about the truth is just a clear indication that the project was way too ambitious for them: if they can't create a very "truth" basis and work the mystery from there together, that is a gigantic issue in term of scenario management and consistency.

Anyway, I can't say if I would be really satisfied with a timeline: that would certainly shed light on what happened with R11 (although I'm more interested with the AFTERMATH of the true ending), but I can't help but consider it as cheap, since it is like reading a plain walkthrough instead of having the plot narrating the missing elements.


@Forsaken:

Spoiler for Remember 11 spoilers:
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Old 2010-10-18, 06:09   Link #37
Elvin
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Originally Posted by Klashikari View Post
I really disagree with the bold statement: writing a story like this ought to reveal the truth no matter the fashion, even in a silly way. Denying the tidbits of information that make the puzzle clear is by no mean an act of courage, but rather asinine.
It's couragous because it's asinine :P But yes, if the writer thought everyone'd be happy with the ending and was surprised with all the rage it brought, then that's a pretty big fail. Guess it's all up to intent.
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Old 2010-10-18, 08:50   Link #38
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I feel relieved im not alone in this.
I 100% agree with everything that Klashikari pointed out and it really comes to lack of necessary skills by Remember11 creators to pull of this ambitious plot.
Also, there is one thing Ive noticed...
Spoiler for epilogue:

But then again I hevent seen all ending (nor do I want to), so maybe im just missing something big, but it still doesnt change a fact main story is a mess and missed opportunity.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Elvin View Post
It's really hit or miss. If you don't like mysteries and being thrown clues to figure out how everything fits together, it's really not for you. You were probably looking for something else when you signed up for it.
You cuoldnt be further from truth. Mystery is my favorite genre and stuff Like Ever17, Higurashi or EVE: Burst Error are among my favorite titles. Hell, even outside games stuff like Detective Conan and Death Note in anime, or Columbo and MONK in TV shows are my favorite shows ever.
I dont like Rememeber11 not because its a mystery genre but because its storytelling is weak and plot is a mess.
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Old 2010-10-18, 10:21   Link #39
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Wow, I REALLY do not want to finish this game now. Thanks, guys.
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Old 2010-10-18, 16:33   Link #40
GundamAce
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I've been focusing on getting Kokoro's bad endings today. As a result, I've been recording how to get the bad endings, so I'll post a walkthrough here now of my own Bad Ending Walkthrough.

As a note for Kokoro's route, I've learned that there's several invisible counters that pile up, such as a "Mayuzumi Stress Counter". By performing certain actions that irritate Mayuzumi too much, it raises the Stress Counter. The only way to get Bad Endings 4 and 7 is to raise this Stress Counter too high (in #7) or too low (in #4).

Spoiler for Remember11 Bad Ending Walkthrough:


I'll keep updating as I get more.

EDIT: The guide is complete.

Last edited by GundamAce; 2011-01-23 at 10:06. Reason: New bad endings
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