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Old 2010-10-18, 16:57   Link #41
Elvin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 4as View Post
I dont like Rememeber11 not because its a mystery genre but because its storytelling is weak and plot is a mess.
Did you try to figure it out though? This game doesn't spoon feed you the answers at the end. If you need that to enjoy a game, then yes, it's not for you.
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Old 2010-10-18, 17:31   Link #42
Klashikari
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GundamAce View Post
I've been focusing on getting Kokoro's bad endings today. As a result, I've been recording how to get the bad endings, so I'll post a walkthrough here now of my own Bad Ending Walkthrough.

As a note for Kokoro's route, I've learned that there's several invisible counters that pile up, such as a "Stress Counter". By performing certain actions that irritate Mayuzumi too much, it raises the Stress Counter. The only way to get Bad Endings 4 and 7 is to raise this Stress Counter too high.

I'll keep updating as I get more.
That is quite helpful.

And funnily enough, I was wondering if there wasn't any kind of "flags" indeed, considering the amount of variations possible.

Speaking of variations, a positive -and- negative aspect of the game is the fact that it retains the actual state of your progression and shape both routes with it (which explains why the walkthrough included in the fantranslation pressed the point you have to go through Satoru's route after being done with Kokoro's good end).

This is actually a good representation of the loop, thus the "infinity".
However, the problem I see there is the fact you have to deliberately finish a bad end so the flags are "reset" which allow you not to be toasted for a random reason you may not figure.

Seriously, a flowchart with this game will probably have a very funny layout, considering the atrocious number of different flags, triggers and whatever happy changes you can have.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Elvin View Post
Did you try to figure it out though? This game doesn't spoon feed you the answers at the end. If you need that to enjoy a game, then yes, it's not for you.
I don't pretend to understand completely 4as' point of view, but I'm confident that he isn't the type of being the spoonfed reader (his answers here and Ever17).

I would say that the possibility to answer fully this story is however extremely convulated: as I explained, the critical information is only provided after a unreasonable amount of efforts (all the 31 bad ends), or in a unnatural fashion (tips instead being integrated in the plot), veiled with a unpolished storytelling.

The fact the director himself has to admit the flaws of this game is a definite proof it is hardly a "fair game".
There is an obvious amount of guess / theorycraft you have to go through, but it doesn't mean that the answer is satisfying considering you will reach a limit to this process.
And even after you go all the pain in checking every damn tidbit of information (including the final 100% tip, the mystery girl), it doesn't reward you with data that can explain everything.
In short, it is as if the writers were purposedly trying to make the tale overly complex (which is not, considering how obvious some points are, such like Yuni), then suddenly make the final truth vanish from your sight, rendering it as an impossible goal. Of course, we know why it became like this, but you can't blame people to rant about R11 considering its storytelling.

If you want my personal analogy, I would say that R11 is similar to a imaginary case where Higurashi no Naku Koro ni would end with Minagoroshi, without its resolution and epilogue: Matsuribayashi.
In essence, you know what is the culprit/issue/origin, the modus operandi/basis, however, you don't know the background for it, nor how to deal with it etc.

Of course, R11 did show a "conclusion", however it was cut short by this forced "loop", which is not what you can consider as even "open ended": it is blatantly unfinished.
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Old 2010-10-18, 17:51   Link #43
GundamAce
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Klashikari View Post
Seriously, a flowchart with this game will probably have a very funny layout, considering the atrocious number of different flags, triggers and whatever happy changes you can have.
A flowchart actually does exist...in Japanese, that is. I'm using it to get the bad endings. But yes, it's so complex that I would never have figured out some of these endings without the guide. Another flag check is the "Energy" flag check- essentially, if Kokoro doesn't have enough energy, you'll get a bad end in a spot where the story would normally continue onwards (this is most present on Day 5.)

Just finished Bad Ending #8 right now. That was f***ing creepy.
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Old 2010-10-18, 18:09   Link #44
Elvin
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I won't fault anyone for not liking what he did with the ending. I'm just saying that lack of consideration for the reader != lack of writing skill. He could've given you everything you wanted on a platter like in E17, but chose not to. If anything, that makes him a bad person, not a bad writer.

But, big surprise, I'm biased as a member of the translation team. Expecting you to like something because I found it enjoyable is stupid.
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Old 2010-10-18, 18:41   Link #45
GundamAce
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Elvin View Post
I won't fault anyone for not liking what he did with the ending. I'm just saying that lack of consideration for the reader != lack of writing skill. He could've given you everything you wanted on a platter like in E17, but chose not to. If anything, that makes him a bad person, not a bad writer.

But, big surprise, I'm biased as a member of the translation team. Expecting you to like something because I found it enjoyable is stupid.
Hey, you're not alone out there. Even though I haven't finished the game, I too find it enjoyable. Maybe not to the extent of Ever17, but I feel that if this game will never be completed fully, then there's no use complaining about it, right? It's not like the more we complain, the game is going to complete itself.
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Old 2010-10-18, 20:09   Link #46
GundamAce
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Alright, I've gotten as many of Kokoro's Bad Endings as possible (#2, #3, and #17 can only be obtained after playing Satoru's Route), so I'm off to play Satoru's route. I'll start working on his bad endings after I finish his route, so wait until then.
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Old 2010-10-19, 01:29   Link #47
TheForsaken
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If someone doesn't like the game because of its ending, I'm fine with that. Because it's a lie if I say that I'm not disappointed by it.
But if someone says this is total crap without any convincing argument to support his claim, then I can't agree with him. He gives me the impression that it's not "he hates it because of its flaws", but "because he hates it so he sees nothing but flaws". I've already seen many people like that. They dislike something for a particular reason. Then because they hate it they see nothing good of it and bash it like there's no tomorrow. And I don't think it's fair.

@Klashikari:
Spoiler for Remember 11 spoilers:


Oh, suddenly something bugs me:
Spoiler for Remember 11 spoilers:
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Old 2010-10-19, 01:40   Link #48
Shiro Kaisen
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheForsaken View Post

Oh, suddenly something bugs me:
Spoiler for Remember 11 spoilers:
Spoiler:



Also, I wouldn't call this game awful. Most of the mysteries aren't that hard to solve once you finish the game and have knowledge of the Failed Plan bad end or that awesome Bad End where you drink Kali's water in Satoru's route. The 100% complete TIP, though, is necessary for total understanding of course. The ending's rageworthy, sure, but it's not THAT bad.

That said, I really liked Kokoro and Satoru as characters, and found Yuni really endearing. Didn't care for Utsumi or Hotori all that much, and Yomogi was pretty okay but not a big deal. Of course, I hated Lin. But I think we're kinda supposed to. Also, the story was infinitely better paced than Ever17 and remained interesting the entire time.

It definitely isn't as good as 17, though, which I consider basically the pinnacle of the VN medium. But I'd have been totally shocked if it was. If Ever17 is a 10/10, I'd give R11 and 8. I wish KID hadn't asploded, because I'm sure they'd have made another Infinity game that finished all this.
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Old 2010-10-19, 01:45   Link #49
Kaisos Erranon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GundamAce View Post
I've been focusing on getting Kokoro's bad endings today. As a result, I've been recording how to get the bad endings, so I'll post a walkthrough here now of my own Bad Ending Walkthrough.
Thank you so much for this, it'll be really helpful.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Elvin View Post
If anything, that makes him a bad person, not a bad writer.
In fact, I'd say that makes him a good writer.
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Old 2010-10-19, 03:44   Link #50
Clarste
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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
In fact, I'd say that makes him a good writer.
A good writer knows his audience: if the audience doesn't like this kind of thing then he's a bad writer. I don't actually know whether or not the audience as a whole likes or dislikes this kind of thing, but you can't just excuse an unsatisfied audience in a commercial market.
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Old 2010-10-19, 04:05   Link #51
Clarste
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 4as View Post
Spoiler for epilogue:
Spoiler:


I'm not saying your other criticisms aren't valid, but I don't think this one is.
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Old 2010-10-19, 06:44   Link #52
Elvin
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Originally Posted by Clarste View Post
A good writer knows his audience: if the audience doesn't like this kind of thing then he's a bad writer. I don't actually know whether or not the audience as a whole likes or dislikes this kind of thing, but you can't just excuse an unsatisfied audience in a commercial market.
That's a damned shallow line of thinking that'd leave you with cookie cutter stories with writers afraid to cross any lines. Inception was a good movie that was convoluted as hell and had an unsatisying ending. Buried had the most depressing ending since the mist but was still a great movie for what it was. Having customer satisfaction on the top of the priority list would only limit or kill off their creativity.

Aiming to simply satisfy what people like is what caused the moe boom and led to the YA sections of bookstores being packed with clone upon clone of vampire novels. If you're telling me that those were the products of good writers then I sure as hell hope I'm a bad one
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Old 2010-10-19, 09:57   Link #53
Clarste
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Elvin View Post
That's a damned shallow line of thinking that'd leave you with cookie cutter stories with writers afraid to cross any lines. Inception was a good movie that was convoluted as hell and had an unsatisying ending. Buried had the most depressing ending since the mist but was still a great movie for what it was. Having customer satisfaction on the top of the priority list would only limit or kill off their creativity.

Aiming to simply satisfy what people like is what caused the moe boom and led to the YA sections of bookstores being packed with clone upon clone of vampire novels. If you're telling me that those were the products of good writers then I sure as hell hope I'm a bad one
I never said it was all of it. Playing it safe is one strategy, but taking risks can also be good, and when it pays off people will love it more than the thing that played it safe. Inception was a risky movie that did really well. Seriously, people love it. That is the mark of success. Taking risks means nothing if your end result isn't good. That's why they call it a risk. The guy who only takes risks and never succeeds has failed as writer because they just overextended themselves. I cannot praise that person, because nothing they have done is worthy of praise.

That said, I don't hate Remember11, it just has some pretty noticeable flaws. You can't just make the flaws disappear with a wave of your hand by claiming that taking risks is good writing. Taking risks is only good writing when it pays off in the end.
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Old 2010-10-19, 15:10   Link #54
Kaisos Erranon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Clarste View Post
A good writer knows his audience: if the audience doesn't like this kind of thing then he's a bad writer.
Bullshit. If you have succeeded in creating any kind of strong emotion in your audience, even anger, and this is at least partially intended, then you have succeeded as a writer.

Frankly, I like endings that piss me off, because that way I know the writer isn't the type to compromise for the sake of pleasing everyone, which inevitably leads to bad writing.

It sounds like you're correlating artistic quality with commercial success. This is nothing more than a huge mistake.


Oh, and Inception was unintelligent, uninspired, unimaginative, and overall an even worse movie than Avatar. It's just a shameless attempt at making stupid people (read: the majority of moviegoers) feel smart, and it succeeded.
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Old 2010-10-19, 15:15   Link #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Clarste View Post
I'm not saying your other criticisms aren't valid, but I don't think this one is.
Spoiler for epilogue:

Last edited by 4as; 2012-12-13 at 15:05.
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Old 2010-10-19, 22:46   Link #56
Clarste
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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
Bullshit. If you have succeeded in creating any kind of strong emotion in your audience, even anger, and this is at least partially intended, then you have succeeded as a writer.

Frankly, I like endings that piss me off, because that way I know the writer isn't the type to compromise for the sake of pleasing everyone, which inevitably leads to bad writing.

It sounds like you're correlating artistic quality with commercial success. This is nothing more than a huge mistake.


Oh, and Inception was unintelligent, uninspired, unimaginative, and overall an even worse movie than Avatar. It's just a shameless attempt at making stupid people (read: the majority of moviegoers) feel smart, and it succeeded.
I haven't seen Inception, I just looked up reviews for it in response to the other post. I'm not arguing that commercial success is the judge of quality, since that often depends on advertising budgets and whatnot, but rather average audience reviews. You can have an audience of one person and be the best writer in the world if that one person loves it (and its also good in more objective ways, again this isn't the only criteria).

Inspiring emotions in your audience is a good thing, but you shouldn't be angry at the author. That's just meaningless. it could be argued that the writer is a good troll is this case.

Last edited by Clarste; 2010-10-19 at 22:57.
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Old 2010-10-19, 23:28   Link #57
TheForsaken
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shiro Kaisen View Post
Spoiler:
Spoiler for :
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Old 2010-10-20, 01:52   Link #58
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How do I activate page turning mode/auto mode? I can set that as default, but not turn it off/on.
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Old 2010-10-20, 01:52   Link #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheForsaken View Post
Spoiler for :


Spoiler for for:
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Old 2010-10-20, 06:20   Link #60
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Originally Posted by Vikitehwaffu View Post
How do I activate page turning mode/auto mode? I can set that as default, but not turn it off/on.
Oh, I couldnt figure it out at first too had to look into manual D:
You have to hold enter key (for brief moment) for that.
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