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Old 2010-10-17, 00:46   Link #181
tsunade666
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it can be look both ways but magic was originally created because they envied those talented people and want to have the same power.

It may sounds that it was created for people who wasn't born with power but for people who initially created the magic. Magic and espers program of academy city was created so they can have power just like those people who had talents.

Saints are talented and magic is a type of talent that can be use by saints. But for espers they can't use that talent. Because of their brain structures aren't suited for it or rather because science altered their brain to produce AIM.

As for gemstones their brain aren't altered by science so their is a chance for them to use magic now if only they don't release such condense and strong AIM field. They can probably use it.
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Old 2010-10-17, 00:57   Link #182
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tsunade666 View Post
it can be look both ways but magic was originally created because they envied those talented people and want to have the same power.

It may sounds that it was created for people who wasn't born with power but for people who initially created the magic. Magic and espers program of academy city was created so they can have power just like those people who had talents.

Saints are talented and magic is a type of talent that can be use by saints. But for espers they can't use that talent. Because of their brain structures aren't suited for it or rather because science altered their brain to produce AIM.

As for gemstones their brain aren't altered by science so their is a chance for them to use magic now if only they don't release such condense and strong AIM field. They can probably use it.

Incorrect yet again, Saint are people whos body resemble jesus they arent more or less talented than a average person.

And AIM is just what espers "transpirate" to say it in a methamorph, gemstones are just natural born espers, and I have yet to see a gemstone cast a spell. Magic affect espers because magic relies on this universe laws to fuction and AIM is bring a personal version of the universe, if you want to compare it to nasuverse is like when the world try to fix paradox by destroying the cause, except that in this case the universe is rejecting the reality of the esper trying to cast.
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Old 2010-10-17, 01:01   Link #183
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Originally Posted by Phibrizzo View Post
Incorrect yet again, Saint are people whos body resemble jesus they arent more or less talented than a average person.

And AIM is just what espers "transpirate" to say it in a methamorph, gemstones are just natural born espers, and I have yet to see a gemstone cast a spell. Magic affect espers because magic relies on this universe laws to fuction and AIM is bring a personal version of the universe, if you want to compare it to nasuverse is like when the world try to fix paradox by destroying the cause, except that in this case the universe is rejecting the reality of the esper trying to cast.
No to ordinary people. That body structure is called a Talent and people who aren't born with it tried other methods to achieve such power.

Gemstones are also talents because their ability to naturally alter the reality of this universe is natural born

Thus magic and esper mass production was made.
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Old 2010-10-17, 01:04   Link #184
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Originally Posted by tsunade666 View Post
No to ordinary people. That body structure is called a Talent and people who aren't born with it tried other methods to achieve such power.

Gemstones are also talents because their ability to naturally alter the reality of this universe is natural born

Thus magic and esper mass production was made.
Mages arent mass produce.. where u get the idea

Who say saints are talented? closest thing I have hear is they are "blessed" people like Kanzaki, theres a hell of difference.

Gemstone arent talented, hell see Himegami her power bring her more pain than anything, Sougita cant even control or understand his power that doesnt sounds like talent at all.
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Old 2010-10-17, 01:06   Link #185
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Originally Posted by Phibrizzo View Post
Mages arent mass produce.. where u get the idea

Who say saints are talented? closest thing I have hear is they are "blessed" people like Kanzaki, theres a hell of difference.

Gemstone arent talented, hell see Himegami her power bring her more pain than anything, Sougita cant even control or understand his power that doesnt sounds like talent at all.
"Talent" being terminology for natural....

Well it shouldn't be too hard to mass produce mages of low levels...I mean the Roman Catholic Church was an effing big organization right at their height of power when they made the Queen of the Adriatic
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Old 2010-10-17, 01:46   Link #186
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I'm tired on searching for this post and it better be helpful. I practically dig the first couple of pages on the other thread for this one.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Plant42 View Post
No, neither Mikoto nor Accelerator born with esper power. Both of them gain their powers from the academy city's curriculum.

The natural born esper are called the "Genseki(gemstone)".
There are only almost 50 of them all around the world
Their powers are really strange compare to the academy city's esper and hard to be called as esper power such as IB and Deepblood

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Originally Posted by Plant42 View Post
It's just a name, due to the fact that the researchers considered these natural born esper(?) to be a valuable gemstones compared to their man-made esper.

well, all of the gemstones's powers have a strange nature,unexplainable and hardly considered to be an esper power.
But the reseachers still have to classify these super natural power user as an esper, cuz they can't find an appropriate term than that.


It's all in the novel especially in SS2 which is focus about the gemstones.

Quote:
Originally Posted by shmaster View Post
No. There is only one dividng line, which is AIM nor not. Do you release AIM? Be yuor power is natural or not, you are consider an esper.

And this is where the fundemental rule of Esper comes into play. Which is, do you release AIM? If you do, you are an Esper. The classification on IB is so problematic is there is no evidence of it releasing any AIM. But then it might just be undetactable due to its own natur eisntead of really havign none.

Quote:
Originally Posted by shmaster View Post
Note, everyone can be esper as long as they have their brains tweaked enough to be one.
That's the whole point of the Academy city, tweaking human brain enough so they can use powers.

Also do not try to make the issure more complicated. Like I said before, whether you are an Esper or not is completly determined by whether you release AIM or not. And because everyone can potentially be an Esper in the first place. So how your powers are developed also doesn't matter either. It is AIM, AIM is what really counts.

Thus there is no division of things such as normal esper or not normal esper, as there is no special AIM or not special AIM. AIM is always just AIM.

And again, Accelerator's power is not developed naturally (and if you want to argue he is one, you have to come up with an explanation on why he is not in the "list"). He is developed by Academy City's programe. And it is impossible to develop power naturally and not be a gem stone, or else that defies the whole definition on gem stones. Gem stones are NOT determined by what power they have or whatever, it is specifcly categorize by whether you obtain the power naturally or not.

So the formula is this:

Esper is determined by whether you release AIM or not.
Gem stone is determined by whether your power is obtained naturally or not.
Gem stone or not, if you release AIM, you are an esper. Gem stone or not, if you don't release AIM, you are not an esper. They are seperate concepts, do not mix them together. It is entirely possible to be a gem stone and not an esper.
.
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Originally Posted by shmaster View Post
Oh also, I almost forgot.

Magic was created against the esper power is a misconception.
Magic was created against people with "talent".
Esper power hardly is the only "talent" in the world. For example, Saints, who belongs to the magic side is also considered as a "talent".


In other words, what we know as esper power is just one type of "talent" that is "fueled by AIM and personal reality that can be produced by the scientific methods developed by Aleister Crowley".

In other words, magic vs. science is seperate matter from untalented vs talented people.
Quote:
Originally Posted by shmaster View Post

As for what would gem stones be if they don't release AIM, again I have to say "I don't know" on this one. Because so far, gem stones are presumed to release AIM int he novel. But then, in order to have gem stones to feel under magic side, their power must be idenitified to use magical energy like Telesma, or using a magical formula or borrow power from a deity or any other thing that magics requires.

As for Saints using magic.... allow me to put it this way. If even espers can cast magic if they are willing to have their head explode in blood, why wouldn't Saints use them when their head won't explode??
I wish that cleared something
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Old 2010-10-17, 02:11   Link #187
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tsunade666 View Post
Esper's can't become magicians because of their own brain was messed up by science.
There's nothing preventing espers from learning spells (in fact, that's exactly what happened to Ellis). It's just that if they try to use them, well...we all know what happens.
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Old 2010-10-17, 02:20   Link #188
tsunade666
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ah.... did you read all the post that I tried to search in the box of treasures? like the post above?

Espers are determined with if you release AIM or NOT. Now if you release AIM then your out of becoming a magicians. Now if the method you use is not releasing an AIM and the power is borrowed from outer plane. Then you're a magician.

Espers are being stop to use magic because their brains would explode thanks to the AIM their releasing but if they are not releasing AIM and their ability doesn't fall on any category then that's a mystery. The same as IB.
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Old 2010-10-17, 03:54   Link #189
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If you can use magic, you are a magician. An esper who knows how to cast spells is therefore a magician. It doesn't help them much because of the side effect (though to say that their head will explode is an exaggeration), but they are not "prevented" from using spells; it is simply not a good idea to do so.
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Old 2010-10-17, 03:58   Link #190
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Originally Posted by tsunade666 View Post
ah.... did you read all the post that I tried to search in the box of treasures? like the post above?

Espers are determined with if you release AIM or NOT. Now if you release AIM then your out of becoming a magicians. Now if the method you use is not releasing an AIM and the power is borrowed from outer plane. Then you're a magician.

Espers are being stop to use magic because their brains would explode thanks to the AIM their releasing but if they are not releasing AIM and their ability doesn't fall on any category then that's a mystery. The same as IB.
i got a question about this.
Spoiler for spoiler from novel:

Also another thing is amount of injuries that espers recieve when using magic. in anime index season 1, if i understood it correctly, Aureolus Izzard was forcing students from Misawa Cram School to use magic, but in anime they showed only some small injuries like scratches, or so.. and he needed them to maintain the barier around the school, so they had to be alive entire time.
But then you have Tsuchimikado Motoharu who also uses magic, but in his case organs are quite seriously damaged. His brain must not be damaged, because he needs it to repair its body with his ability autoregeneration. So my teory is simple here. Those students in misava cram school was lv 0 probably, with low amount of aim (or none), whitch caused only small dmg. Tsuchimikado cannot be considered a lv 0. Definition of a lv 0 - person with no ability at all, or ability too weak to manifest itself. So Tsuchimikado is between lv 1-5, because his ability CAN manifest, though the scientis dont know about it, its probably some unique ability not dicovered yet. And because he is a higher lv, he recieves a higher amount of dmg. Similar to the capacity down system, the higher lv you are, the more dmg you recieve (watch the fight with telestina)

Another thing - arent gemstoned caled gemstoned because they have AIM? i mean we have only 2 powers here - magic and aim. If a person is born with aim, he is considered a gemstone, if a person was born (blessed) with magic, then he is a saint. If we have only 2 powers and only two options, then there cant be a gemstone who does not use aim, because the only option left for him is to use magic, and thats called saint.

Aslo my most important point - if esper can be born naturaly, can they naturaly develop their powers?
Spoiler for spoiler from novels:
It was shown that Rikou developed, through "not_sure_if_can_be_considered_natural" way from one lv to another. And if a natural development is possible, can they also be considered a gemstones? I mean if it is not a "set up" development by AC, then the power they will get at higher lv, can vary greatly from what they had before. Like adding to already existing power some (like you said) "strange nature". For example you have a lv 4 electromaster, he develops naturaly and at lv 5 his power will affect not only normal electrons, but some electric forces between subatomic particles, causing inexplicable stuff to happen.
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Old 2010-10-17, 04:14   Link #191
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AC's ability to calculate what an esper's limits are is not perfect (heck, even Tree Diagram wasn't truly perfect: look at the Level 6 Shift experiment: the scientists in charge of that clearly didn't even know what level 6 entailed, let alone what was necessary to get there).

Gemstones are people who are born with esper powers and at their full potential. They cannot develop. They start maxed out. Rikou is not a gemstone for this reason. To be a gemstone she would have had to be born at whatever her maximum potential was.

Saints are not simply people born with magic. They are born with a special type of magic: the power of the stigma. Fiamma of the Right, for example, was born with the Holy Right, but he is not a saint.
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Old 2010-10-17, 04:16   Link #192
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zaeraal View Post
i got a question about this.
Spoiler for spoiler from novel:
Because he's that tough...he used Telesma magic...

his acension to Angel was just him further developing his own powers after he finally realized his own purpose.....not due to the song or something.

When he felt the Eurasia obliterating blast that Fianma unleashed, it was a discomforting feeling from the sheer amount of Telesma concentrated in one spot.

Quote:
AC's ability to calculate what an esper's limits are is not perfect (heck, even Tree Diagram wasn't truly perfect: look at the Level 6 Shift experiment: the scientists in charge of that clearly didn't even know what level 6 entailed, let alone what was necessary to get there).
The whole point of that was simply to start off Accelerator's development. Level 6 was never Aleister's aim in that experiment. The researchers. Mikoto, and Accelerator himself were all pawns.
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Old 2010-10-17, 04:26   Link #193
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^ Fiamma used Telesma??? I thought only angels could

and i dont think Telesma > AIM the way AIM > magic, FUZE was doing fine against Gabriel and even base Accel's vector control affected gabriel (it just wasnt as effective as it was against FUZE)

while AIM can outright negate/dispel magic, it seems Telesma and AIM are roughly equal, and dont really dispel each other.
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Old 2010-10-17, 04:47   Link #194
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Originally Posted by reaper with no name View Post
If you can use magic, you are a magician. An esper who knows how to cast spells is therefore a magician. It doesn't help them much because of the side effect (though to say that their head will explode is an exaggeration), but they are not "prevented" from using spells; it is simply not a good idea to do so.
Okay let's break it down. I think you mean Tsuchimikado which is the only one who is an esper and the same time a magician.

If by human nature true they are not prevented from using spells. The one preventing it is their brain. the altered brain by science which is meant to release AIM is interfering with the magic. Magic borrows power from outside plane to alter the nature of this plane but the espers AIM present their own "personal reality" altering this own plane by their own powers.

It's been a "taboo" for an esper to not use magic because it would kill them and if you said about tsuchimikado then his an exception thanks to his ability but still it can kill him.

See the animated vol 4. When tsuchimikado is crying blood and in blood bath of his own blood.

The greater the magic your invoking the greater the rejection of your brain. Plus if your a higher level with a much denser and stronger AIM field. Scrambled brains isn't enough on what may happen to you.



Let's breakdown another question


Quote:
Originally Posted by zaeraal View Post
i got a question about this.
Spoiler for spoiler from novel:
His meant to be that way. That's the plan of Aleister.
here's a little answer but it would do me good and it would be good if you ask it in the novel thread. I don't want to get another infraction on points. I'm near negative status
[spoiler]Aleister is planning to evolve Accelerator to that point. First integration of the imaginary sectors into this plane and that's the black wings. Then his struggle and fight to earn more experience. Him bumping into magicians and ultimately on Goat Skin which teach him about angelic language. Goat skin isn't included on Index knowledge and one of the special books. Do you really think it would ended up in a transport train and that train is the one accelerator is riding just to escape from academy city? all been plan well to evolve the strongest esper.

Think of it like gundam 00 where Aolia or what ever the name of that scientist who planned the innovation of humanity. Like setsuna from a normal ace pilot into the messiah innovator and ultimately into a mecha god that can communicate with aliens.

If you compare it to accelerator. From the plan of him being the strongest then pummeled into a disabled. meeting last order. Knowing the values of life or rather letting him know what life is. Making last order the life line of Accelerator. So if Aleister took Last order away. Accelerator would surely go to any place to get him. Making it much more easier to control him. Then into a blood bath dark winged destroyer to finally evolve into an angel.
[spoiler]

long post my fingers aching

Quote:
Also another thing is amount of injuries that espers recieve when using magic. in anime index season 1, if i understood it correctly, Aureolus Izzard was forcing students from Misawa Cram School to use magic, but in anime they showed only some small injuries like scratches, or so.. and he needed them to maintain the barrier around the school, so they had to be alive entire time.
anime cuts it

Spoiler:

Quote:
But then you have Tsuchimikado Motoharu who also uses magic, but in his case organs are quite seriously damaged. His brain must not be damaged, because he needs it to repair its body with his ability autoregeneration. So my teory is simple here. Those students in misava cram school was lv 0 probably, with low amount of aim (or none), whitch caused only small dmg. Tsuchimikado cannot be considered a lv 0. Definition of a lv 0 - person with no ability at all, or ability too weak to manifest itself. So Tsuchimikado is between lv 1-5, because his ability CAN manifest, though the scientis dont know about it, its probably some unique ability not dicovered yet. And because he is a higher lv, he recieves a higher amount of dmg. Similar to the capacity down system, the higher lv you are, the more dmg you recieve (watch the fight with telestina)
First and fore most. I'm not sure on how the heck the academy city leveled the students but one thing is for sure. Tsuchimikado according to the records of the school is his level zero.

and I got a theory behind it.

The thing is they are probably measuring on how much on can manifest or control their ability. Just like in railgun anime. They perform different test and for different ability. Then they decide what level it is.

Just like for teleporters. They use the range and the weight of the object o measure the ability.

But for auto regeneration.......... how to measure it? it didn't even manifest as long as Tsuchimikado is dead. yes dead or nearly dead.

So the time when his using magic but still alive that's thanks to his ability because theoretically his dead. Unless they plan on killing him again and again to see results and I don't see that happening.

Plus the auto regeneration is not present all the time. It's like a gamble with only 1 is to 7 chance the ability would kick in. Or rather I think their is only 7 chance he could use it. Not to sure on it. But it can't be a good life line for him when his using magic.

and about the damage one receive. Imagine a level 0 which can't even manifest the ability of their own is getting scrambled brains. Imagine what if a level 1 or a level 5 use it. Like I say. Scrambled brains wouldn't be enough to define that scene.
[quote]
Another thing - arent gemstoned caled gemstoned because they have AIM? i mean we have only 2 powers here - magic and aim. If a person is born with aim, he is considered a gemstone, if a person was born (blessed) with magic, then he is a saint. If we have only 2 powers and only two options, then there cant be a gemstone who does not use aim, because the only option left for him is to use magic, and thats called saint.[quote]

gemstone are people with natural born ability. (period) now if that natural power release AIM then they are espers. It's just that all the gemstone yet with ability revealed is all in espers. Like Sogita and Aisa

but what about the gemstone girl in the side story? they didn't show her ability or even called her an esper. Just gemstone

Saints are called saints because their bodies are naturally born with the same body as the son of god. thus allowing them to use thelema and since their body didn't release AIM they can use Magic.

Quote:

Aslo my most important point - if esper can be born naturaly, can they naturaly develop their powers?
Spoiler for spoiler from novels:
It was shown that Rikou developed, through "not_sure_if_can_be_considered_natural" way from one lv to another. And if a natural development is possible, can they also be considered a gemstones? I mean if it is not a "set up" development by AC, then the power they will get at higher lv, can vary greatly from what they had before. Like adding to already existing power some (like you said) "strange nature". For example you have a lv 4 electromaster, he develops naturaly and at lv 5 his power will affect not only normal electrons, but some electric forces between subatomic particles, causing inexplicable stuff to happen.
Gemstones again are naturally develop ability users as for the level given to them. It just show how powerful that ability is. Like Sogita his ability aren't categories in one category like accelerator which is telekinesis and Misaka electrokinesis or electromaster.

Sogita's ability let him use different ability from other category same as dual skill or multiple abilities. And that itself is mystery. That's why gemstone are mystery.

And No. The academy city helps
Spoiler:


All espers in the academy city are develop by academy city unless your a gemstone which is naturally born with it.

hope I answer some questions.
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Old 2010-10-17, 21:40   Link #195
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Mages arent mass produce.. where u get the idea

Who say saints are talented? closest thing I have hear is they are "blessed" people like Kanzaki, theres a hell of difference.

Gemstone arent talented, hell see Himegami her power bring her more pain than anything, Sougita cant even control or understand his power that doesnt sounds like talent at all.
Who says Saints' are talented? Kanzaki, Acqua and all of the Amakusa church in Vol16 that I can think off offhand. There are other instances but I don't really want to do dig for them all right now ^.^;

And as for Vol2 where the students died or not... Aureolus' Ars Magna brought them all back to life after they got blown to bits by Roman Catholic Church's Gregorian Chant.
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Old 2010-10-18, 01:38   Link #196
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Saints, gemstones, Imagine Breaker and Holy Right- basically anyone born with a power are called'talented'. You can use any other word (blessed, gifted, genius, cursed etc.) but it's basically refering to people with special abilities natural to them.
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Old 2010-10-18, 03:22   Link #197
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It is pretty natural that Accelerator isn't dying from the song he sang to cure last order.
Spell Intercept, after all, is a low class magic that doesn't require much magical power. The rebound not doubt is pretty small, just Accelerator's own AIM is too great, that the inside of his body still exploded into a bloody mass even he is just casting some weak magic.

As for Tsuchimikado, he has been shown to cast weak spell and it only cause small wounds to him.

Last edited by shmaster; 2010-10-18 at 03:49.
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Old 2010-10-18, 03:41   Link #198
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the only yet so far that tsuchimikado cast that cost sever bleeding is the spell that is homing and destroy it's target.

and spell intercept didn't even use mana that's why index can cast while in normal mode.
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Old 2010-10-18, 05:40   Link #199
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Originally Posted by pikachuwei View Post
^ Fiamma used Telesma??? I thought only angels could

and i dont think Telesma > AIM the way AIM > magic, FUZE was doing fine against Gabriel and even base Accel's vector control affected gabriel (it just wasnt as effective as it was against FUZE)

while AIM can outright negate/dispel magic, it seems Telesma and AIM are roughly equal, and dont really dispel each other.
The Eurasia obliterating blast that Fianma hurled down from the Star of Bethlehem as a last ditch move?

That was pure, concentrated Telesma from the sky brought down by the Holy Right.
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Old 2010-10-18, 19:52   Link #200
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been thinking about teleport(stupid tvtropes >.<), and it just occurred to me that Awaki's accident was really just ridiculously dumb: all she needed to do was just teleport again like half a meter ahead, and her leg would have been free and without suffering any grievous, mind-crippling injury. Or if she couldn't teleport again for whatever reason, she could have just gotten someone to smash the wall around her leg to free it, instead of trying to get it out by force...
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