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Old 2010-10-14, 14:37   Link #81
Ricky Controversy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grandchaosSR View Post
Ok I get it. I respect your opinion so you should respect our own opinion about Haruka.
I'm not denying anyone's right to have the opinions they have about Haruka. I simply wanted to point out that from a different perspective, the picture changes dramatically.

If we're talking in literary terms, a positive interpretation of Haruka is tonal. The narrative insists that the developments within it are positive by focusing on Haruka's behaviors as moe points. This is an interpretation that follows the clear intention of the creators, and I can understand where you're coming from.

My rather dark interpretation is textual, which is generally how I analyze stories and the characters in them. If you assess Haruka based on her actions, words and thoughts rather than the light in which the narrative presents them, you wind up with the distressing version. How I see it is clearly detached from the intent of the creators, and is based solely on the whole of the material presented.

Ultimately, which way is 'valid' is an ongoing debate, and all I can speak to is the way I look at things.
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Old 2010-10-14, 22:54   Link #82
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Originally Posted by Ricky Controversy View Post
My rather dark interpretation is textual, which is generally how I analyze stories and the characters in them. If you assess Haruka based on her actions, words and thoughts rather than the light in which the narrative presents them, you wind up with the distressing version. How I see it is clearly detached from the intent of the creators, and is based solely on the whole of the material presented.
Well Amagami characters are mostly one-dimensional since their stories last for only 4 episodes. That's why they have a designated stereotype so the writers wouldn't have to go great lengths just to present them to the audience. I totally understand your interpretation but what I'm saying is...sometimes its best not to over analyze a 1-dimensional character.
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Old 2010-10-15, 01:05   Link #83
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[QUOTE=Ricky Controversy;3297653]The things people like about Haruka are, for me, dramatic warning signs. Allow me to paint a picture here, using my own observations and the things others have said about her.



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Not pretentious, sure, I can agree with that. Down-to-earth, however? I don't think so, not one whit. Because...

I would say she is Down-to-earth because she gives this relaxing aura, you can hang out with her, and she doesn't look down upon others.

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Originally Posted by Ricky Controversy View Post
I wouldn't consider playfulness or even vague lesbianism particularly uncommon, it's pretty typical of High-School girls. Where things start to get worth noting are that she has no sense of proportion when it comes to cute things. She doesn't consider her actions or their potential consequences when she's indulging herself in what she sees as cute. This is definitively not down-to-earth behavior, it's socially retarded.

What is She has no sense of proportion when it comes to cute things? Puppies are cute. Miya is cute. I can't argue about Haruka's taste and I don't see how it is hout of proportion. I can't remember an incident that would get her in trouble for liking cuteness.

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So, basically, just a moe point? That's all well and good, but really does NOT off-set this.

Moe is acceptable in most anime

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This is not cute, at all, I can tell you that from first-hand experience. Being unable to express one's emotion is a serious issue. We call that 'broken', not cute. Normally this wouldn't ultimately lead to any harm but to Haruka herself, whom would suffer with her repressed emotions, except...
...that she DOES communicate her feelings, just not in a healthy way. She jerks Junichi around the whole time, plain and simple. You may not be made to question it, because Junichi goes along with it, but there's nothing else that it could be called. She can't just come out and speak her heart, she has to play little roundabout games with the poor loser, and lies to him to get him into a weird situation where she's totally wrapped up in her insecurities. I don't consider the implication that they had sex to be any kind of redemption for the way she has continually misled the guy and forced him to do everything on her terms.

The outcomes matter more. Since Jun doesn't mind and actually goes along with this approach it is okay. Besides how many people are truely honest with themselves. I wonder how many people hid there true motives. Not to many people can speak there heart either. I can't really think of how many teenage boys and girls speak out there hearts. In the end, haruka was able to express her feelings to Jun and that is what matters. She even spent time with him in a hotel swimming. They had a good time is what I'm emphasizing.

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I highly doubt, based on her ultimate actions, that she is unaware of what she's doing. The whole arc, she seems to be testing Junichi's willingness to play along with whatever she presents. It seems benign solely because Junichi plays along with it and receives fanservicey 'rewards' for doing so, but what you're witnessing is an emotional fragile young guy being wound around the finger of an entirely unstable girl.

In the other arcs Jun has his strong points and he took the intiative to be with Haruka. I can't say Jun is an emotional fragile young guy when he showed determination and not breaking down.

How is Haruka considered unstable? I consider unstable as a negative and crazy state that flip-flops back and forth and I don't see haruka fitting in these catagories.


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How is that a plus? Would it be just okay if she liked jerks? Liking nice guys should be taken as the bare minimum of taste, not a point of pride, sorry.

I have to agree with you there. I ment before women usually fall for the guy that has the cool cloths, cool hair, with the cool attitude even though there personalities are not that great. Haruka points out and got closer to him as soon as she knows he is nice and witness the event in where he was nice.

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What? She goaded him. "Could it be that you like me?" she said, and then shot him down just as simply. Now obviously, being honest and rejecting someone firmly is best, but to pursue that point on her own and then put it down means that she is entirely aware of the situation, and is trying to remain in control of it. It is her right to reject any confession she wishes to, but the manner in which she does it is such that she wants to stifle Junichi's own expression of feelings outside her comfort zone.

Her line of questioning gets rid of all assumptions. If she didn't pursue those questions Jun wouldn't really think about how he felt.


In the end, both characters are happy so everything played in line. If Jun was in misery and in pain everytime Haruka plays a game then we should see it in a pessimistic light but since Jun was having a good time too then we can see it in a positive light. Besides Haruka went along Jun's game during that lunch scene so it isn't all of Haruka games becasuse she participates too. One thing is for sure it looks like they had a good time.
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Old 2010-10-15, 09:18   Link #84
Ricky Controversy
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I would say she is Down-to-earth because she gives this relaxing aura, you can hang out with her, and she doesn't look down upon others.
"Down-to-earth" really speaks more to the idea that someone is well-grounded in reality, which Haruka is not. She is very fanciful, which has the positive effect that she's not bound by social norms, but also means she doesn't really think about consequences much.

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What is She has no sense of proportion when it comes to cute things? Puppies are cute. Miya is cute. I can't argue about Haruka's taste and I don't see how it is hout of proportion. I can't remember an incident that would get her in trouble for liking cuteness.
"Out of proportion" meaning that she overreacts. Again, she's fanciful, and she doesn't keep her wits about her, she just lets whatever happens to float on by completely absorb her attention, which results in her being rather flighty. That is what we call an 'unstable' person.

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Moe is acceptable in most anime
Never said it wasn't. I said it was 'all well and good'. What I did say, however, is that it's not the sort of thing that can offset her negative personality traits.

Quote:
The outcomes matter more. Since Jun doesn't mind and actually goes along with this approach it is okay. Besides how many people are truely honest with themselves. I wonder how many people hid there true motives. Not to many people can speak there heart either. I can't really think of how many teenage boys and girls speak out there hearts. In the end, haruka was able to express her feelings to Jun and that is what matters. She even spent time with him in a hotel swimming. They had a good time is what I'm emphasizing.
And this is why I say that people who like Haruka are taking the 'tonal' approach, because you are taking Haruka the way the narrative insists you should. Yes, they get a 'good ending', but why is it good? It's good because they suggest it's good.

Keep in mind though, I'm a writer, and I will always think of stories the way a writer does. A general rule in writing is that whatever dramatic ending or moral lesson or happy turn of events you include needs to be earned by convincingly building up to it. The story we're actually shown is about a flighty, manipulative young girl who plays mindgames with a boy who has had a crush on her for a while, and ultimately gets him to submit to her completely.

But their intention was obviously that everything that happened was supposed to be good, so Haruka's behavior is never called into question. The happy ending is consistent with the creators' desires, but nowhere in Haruka's arc did I see a healthy relationship forming.

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In the other arcs Jun has his strong points and he took the intiative to be with Haruka. I can't say Jun is an emotional fragile young guy when he showed determination and not breaking down.
You are certainly free to see it that way, but I don't see Junichi taking the initiative at all. Haruka is in control of the situation the whole way and sets the pace, dragging Junichi along for the ride, testing his willingness to entertain her whims, and only opening up to him when he proves completely willing to let her do whatever in exchange for her affection. That is what the hotel scene looks like when really subjecting it to scrutiny.

Nor do I see Junichi as showing determination throughout the arc. I see it as desperation. A boy who went emo for two years after one rejection has been pinning his romantic hopes on the school idol and now that he has her attention, even if she's leading him around by the nose, he can't let go.

Quote:
How is Haruka considered unstable? I consider unstable as a negative and crazy state that flip-flops back and forth and I don't see haruka fitting in these catagories.
She's flighty and manipulative. We've been shown that she gets entirely derailed by whatever catches her fancy at a given moment, she's willing to lie to get her way, she only grows closer to Junichi as he proves he's more and more willing to submit to her, and she can only force herself to express emotions when she's in complete control of the situation. In a crisis, how would she react? If Junichi started to act independently, how would she react? Somehow, I just don't see the 'ten years later' thing possibly happening unless Junichi just completely gave up his own will.


Quote:
I have to agree with you there. I ment before women usually fall for the guy that has the cool cloths, cool hair, with the cool attitude even though there personalities are not that great. Haruka points out and got closer to him as soon as she knows he is nice and witness the event in where he was nice.
She takes notice of him because he's nice, yes, but then what? She only gets closer to him afterward as she realizes how caught up in her he is, which he proves by mindlessly entertaining her every whim and never questioning things like her jealous behavior.

Quote:
Her line of questioning gets rid of all assumptions. If she didn't pursue those questions Jun wouldn't really think about how he felt.
It's established that Junichi has had a crush on Haruka for a while now. How he feels is not in question, nor is Haruka's inquiry meant to make him think, because if it were, she'd have given him space to come to his own conclusion. Instead, she shuts him down immediately, meaning that she asserted that point to take control of and disarm the situation. She didn't even give him the room to confess on his own and risk him saying or doing something that would take her control away.

Quote:
In the end, both characters are happy so everything played in line. If Jun was in misery and in pain everytime Haruka plays a game then we should see it in a pessimistic light but since Jun was having a good time too then we can see it in a positive light. Besides Haruka went along Jun's game during that lunch scene so it isn't all of Haruka games becasuse she participates too. One thing is for sure it looks like they had a good time.
This is exactly what I'm describing, though. We are being TOLD it is good, and that's why people go along with it, but if you subject the whole thing to analysis, it doesn't stand up. The happy ending was not 'earned'. What Grandchaos said comes to mind.

Quote:
Well Amagami characters are mostly one-dimensional since their stories last for only 4 episodes. That's why they have a designated stereotype so the writers wouldn't have to go great lengths just to present them to the audience. I totally understand your interpretation but what I'm saying is...sometimes its best not to over analyze a 1-dimensional character.
It is, perhaps, unreasonable of me to expect much from any of these characters, since four episodes for each story is certainly a far tighter limitation than, say, twenty-four. And I have indeed acknowledged that if you buy Haruka the way the creators are insisting on, then undoubtedly I am in the wrong, not to mention that her kind of troubles are fairly typical of High School girls anyway.

What causes me to actually analyze the characters, though, is the fact that we have two girls who were developed with some decent texture despite the four-episode limit. Neither Kaoru nor Ai can really be reduced to one dimension without losing a lot of their positive traits, in contrast to Haruka and Sae, who benefit from a single-minded focus on their intended moe points. As a result, I feel it would be inconsistent to let anyone else off the hook if they've proven they CAN actually give some okay characterization. Does that make sense?
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Old 2010-10-15, 09:56   Link #85
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Originally Posted by Ricky Controversy View Post
It is, perhaps, unreasonable of me to expect much from any of these characters, since four episodes for each story is certainly a far tighter limitation than, say, twenty-four. And I have indeed acknowledged that if you buy Haruka the way the creators are insisting on, then undoubtedly I am in the wrong, not to mention that her kind of troubles are fairly typical of High School girls anyway.

What causes me to actually analyze the characters, though, is the fact that we have two girls who were developed with some decent texture despite the four-episode limit. Neither Kaoru nor Ai can really be reduced to one dimension without losing a lot of their positive traits, in contrast to Haruka and Sae, who benefit from a single-minded focus on their intended moe points. As a result, I feel it would be inconsistent to let anyone else off the hook if they've proven they CAN actually give some okay characterization. Does that make sense?
As far as I know Sae is the only one that changed which means she is not 1-dimensional. Haruka is still the same after the ending and Kaoru too. They only realized their love for Junichi which can't be considered as a change in personality. I have yet to see if Ai changes.

Really, this is turning into Haruka/Sae vs Kaoru/Ai and I don't want to turn it into a heated battle/debate because Kaoru and Ai are my 2nd and 3rd fave characters.

I know its easier for you to relate to Kaoru and Ai especially if you have similar personal experience. I have those kind of experiences too IRL. The friend to lovers route is really the safest and the best way to get a relationship but this is anime for chrissakes.

I'm just appreciating a character that made me laugh for a few minutes. Its not like I consider Haruka as my waifu. She's just a fictional character. Like I said before there is no point in over analyzing. If Amagami is only written by a "good" writer then maybe we can debate about their subtle "hidden" motives/personality but its not because the show is only about wish fulfillment. The drama here is pretty light compared to other anime/manga.
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Old 2010-10-22, 12:25   Link #86
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Every romance has its cast of diverse girls. Haruka was the manipulative, flighty character, Koaru was the childhood friend turned lover, Sae was the shy girl who lacked confidence, Ai was the ideal girl who had it all, Rihoko is the airhead, etc..

Junichi was the most pathetic during Haruka's arc because he was at his most vulnerable disposition after going emo. Despite his detraction from others - spending time in his "isolation chamber: aka closet planetarium - he wanted to replace those memories upon meeting and receiving attention from Haruka.

The very first thing she noticed about Junichi was his thoughtfulness when he helped Sae get her lunch. Later, when they meet at the library, she tells Hibiki it would be ok for Junichi to carry her books because "he's a nice guy" - a comment she reiterates multiple times in the first episode. Despite stating she wanted someone "more reliable and older", she clearly wanted the opposite - someone young and nice (gullible). People who are deemed overly nice are sometimes easy to manipulate because of their earnest desire to please others. Combine this with the fact that Junichi wants to replace his sad Christmas memories with happier ones, and that makes him a prime target for someone like Haruka.

I'm not saying she isn't a nice girl lacking great qualities. After all, she is very playful, easy to please, and seems to enjoy anything you toss at her. Its just that I prefer girls with whom I do not have to relinquish my pride and integrity in order to pass her tests in an effort to control me.
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Old 2010-10-22, 12:31   Link #87
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I don't think Haruka's intention is to control anyone. In my opinion, when she said Junichi was a nice guy, she really meant it. As for what she wanted in her boyfriend, I think what she wanted was someone who was serious about her. That's why even though she refused Junichi the first time he confessed to her, she couldn't do it after he persisted. I think that's rather understandable, considering she's the pretties and most popular girl in school; so, I think there's nothing wrong in assuming many boys fancy her, but are not really serious about her.

In a way, I also think it's rather understandable to play all these sort of "games" considering her personality, since she's always rather honest when it comes down to expressing her emotions. So, if she's to put them into play, and she's hurt, then it'll be a serious blow to her, since emotionally, she'd probably be pretty much defenceless. In fact, in her bad end, Junichi ditched her on Christmas, and when they met again, some years later, she was the boss at some company, and she had become a rather cold person.

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Every romance has its cast of diverse girls. Haruka was the manipulative, flighty character, Koaru was the childhood friend turned lover, Sae was the shy girl who lacked confidence, Ai was the ideal girl who had it all, Rihoko is the airhead, etc..
Rihoko is the childhood friend, actually - notice how Miya addresses Rihoko informally, yet she uses honorifics for Kaoru. Kaoru was the tomboyish friend.
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Old 2010-10-22, 12:44   Link #88
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I don't think Haruka's intention is to control anyone. In my opinion, when she said Junichi was a nice guy, she really meant it. As for what she wanted in her boyfriend, I think what she wanted was someone who was serious about her. That's why even though she refused Junichi the first time he confessed to her, she couldn't do it after he persisted. I think that's rather understandable, considering she's the pretties and most popular girl in school; so, I think there's nothing wrong in assuming many boys fancy her, but are not really serious about her.

In a way, I also think it's rather understandable to play all these sort of "games" considering her personality, since she's always rather honest when it comes down to expressing her emotions. So, if she's to put them into play, and she's hurt, then it'll be a serious blow to her, since emotionally, she'd probably be pretty much defenceless. In fact, in her bad end, Junichi ditched her on Christmas, and when they met again, some years later, she was the boss at some company, and she had become a rather cold person.


Rihoko is the childhood friend, actually - notice how Miya addresses Rihoko informally, yet she uses honorifics for Kaoru. Kaoru was the tomboyish friend.
Yep, an also remember Jun remembers how rihoko wanted to lose weight by getting cookbooks
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Old 2010-10-22, 13:01   Link #89
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They both are childhood friends to Junichi. I just described Rihoko as the airhead because that's more or less her archetype.

Back to Haruka: Looking at it from your perspective, I understand what you mean. Her being the school idol probably did play a huge part in her rejecting everyone else, including Junichi because she may have thought they were interested in her solely for her status rather than who she was. So yes, I suppose you are right in saying that she'd use her tests to see if Junichi genuinely was interested in her, and not just infatuated.
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Old 2010-10-22, 13:18   Link #90
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I may be wrong, but I think it was stated somewhere that Junichi has only known Kaoru for a couple of years. They weren't friends during childhood.
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Old 2010-10-22, 13:44   Link #91
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I don't think Haruka's intention is to control anyone. In my opinion, when she said Junichi was a nice guy, she really meant it. As for what she wanted in her boyfriend, I think what she wanted was someone who was serious about her. That's why even though she refused Junichi the first time he confessed to her, she couldn't do it after he persisted. I think that's rather understandable, considering she's the pretties and most popular girl in school; so, I think there's nothing wrong in assuming many boys fancy her, but are not really serious about her.

In a way, I also think it's rather understandable to play all these sort of "games" considering her personality, since she's always rather honest when it comes down to expressing her emotions. So, if she's to put them into play, and she's hurt, then it'll be a serious blow to her, since emotionally, she'd probably be pretty much defenceless. In fact, in her bad end, Junichi ditched her on Christmas, and when they met again, some years later, she was the boss at some company, and she had become a rather cold person.
Totally agree with you here now she is the boss of some company in the bad ending Is there any other endings of Haruka that we should know (for I can be enlighten)?

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They both are childhood friends to Junichi. I just described Rihoko as the airhead because that's more or less her archetype.
I think we will truely find out in the coming arc if she truely is an airhead or not. Maybe she is more the dazed type of person who gets all good grades. Then again who says a person cannot be an airhead and have good grades in the same time

Back to Haruka: Looking at it from your perspective, I understand what you mean. Her being the school idol probably did play a huge part in her rejecting everyone else, including Junichi because she may have thought they were interested in her solely for her status rather than who she was. So yes, I suppose you are right in saying that she'd use her tests to see if Junichi genuinely was interested in her, and not just infatuated.[/QUOTE]

Being the school idol is a big part of it. lol That is why we have Hibiki watching over Haruka.

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I may be wrong, but I think it was stated somewhere that Junichi has only known Kaoru for a couple of years. They weren't friends during childhood.
I think it was mention in the anime that they known eachother for a couple of years. I consider being middle school friends as being childhood friends though.
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Old 2010-10-22, 14:22   Link #92
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Well, in either case, I wonder since she's known Junichi for longer, if they'll experience the same conflict that he had with Kaoru in terms of friends turning lovers. They certainly seem to have a similar playful banter that he has with Kaoru, although I think with Kaoru it is more 50/50 as to who picks on who.
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Old 2010-10-22, 17:28   Link #93
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Well, in either case, I wonder since she's known Junichi for longer, if they'll experience the same conflict that he had with Kaoru in terms of friends turning lovers. They certainly seem to have a similar playful banter that he has with Kaoru, although I think with Kaoru it is more 50/50 as to who picks on who.
Even if it's not the right thread, I think with Kaoru, It's Kaoru who like being playful with Junichi when with Rihoko, it's the contrary.
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Old 2010-10-22, 17:43   Link #94
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Well, after re-watching Haruka's arc for a second time, and viewing it from the angle of being the popular school idol, my opinion of her has changed for the better. She'd most likely be a really fun girlfriend to have. I'd still rate her a little lower than Ai, though, since she isn't an athlete. But considering she used to play with boys a lot as a kid, and wanted to wrestle with Junichi, maybe I could get her to come to the gym with me
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Old 2010-10-22, 22:28   Link #95
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I don't get something about Haruka in particular--why is it that only she got the "married and pregnant" ending in the anime? I'd like to see something similar, or marriage at least, for Kaoru myself--do more characters get that type of ending in the game?
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Old 2010-10-23, 02:14   Link #96
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I don't get something about Haruka in particular--why is it that only she got the "married and pregnant" ending in the anime? I'd like to see something similar, or marriage at least, for Kaoru myself--do more characters get that type of ending in the game?
That has been stuck in my head for a long time also... I always wonder why Haruka alone gets the epilogue.. But... We dont know if she is "pregnant" as you said...
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Old 2010-10-23, 03:39   Link #97
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I don't get something about Haruka in particular--why is it that only she got the "married and pregnant" ending in the anime?
They probably didn't have enough time to add one in the other arcs, i mean we heard that Kaoru's ending will be extended in the DVD/Blu-ray version, so we might get one there.

Or it could just be because Haruka's was the best arc.
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Old 2010-10-23, 09:37   Link #98
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I don't get something about Haruka in particular--why is it that only she got the "married and pregnant" ending in the anime? I'd like to see something similar, or marriage at least, for Kaoru myself--do more characters get that type of ending in the game?
It's the same in the game. She's the only one who gets a time skip by the time they are married, in her true end. There's also that bad end of hers I mentioned, though. Well, there was also a time-skip in Ai's bad end, in which they met again after some time, had a talk, and it's shown Ai still loves Junichi. I believe they resumed their relationship. In addition:

Spoiler for Amagami Ends - BIG Spoilers:
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Old 2010-10-23, 12:59   Link #99
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Okay, I just read a blog post here that claims Sae's best ending in the game is similar to what I was talking about. So there was precedent--it's just that AIC didn't want the endings to be too similar, I guess.
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Old 2010-10-23, 15:10   Link #100
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Location: Texas
Age: 37
I think one of the reasons Haruka is so popular is that she loves to role play, and it was quite apparent Junichi does as well. She's the type of girl who will literally do anything as long as you make the activity seem fun. Even something as simple and mundane as eating ramen for lunch was a stimulating experience when the two used their wild imagination. To her, its not necessarily the activity itself that is fun, but rather the person she is with who makes it enjoyable. Personally, I think finding enjoyment in such simple things is certainly important in keeping the romance alive between two partners.

If you had to pick one of the girls who was on the same character level as Junichi, it would be Haruka. I can honestly see most of their daily interactions while married involve some type of role play like was showcased when Hibiki came by to visit.
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