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Old 2010-10-25, 12:22   Link #2021
CaptGloval
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Mod edit: moved from Macross Romance (take 2) thread

Shipping wars never die, huh.

Anyway, to clear things up, when Ranka left Frontier at Ep 21, all she had was a nagging suspicion that this entire war between Frontier and Vajra wasn't right (like all other wars, but anyway) and her only evidence was this friendly Ai-kun Vajra that does not make sense in the prevailing Frontier mindset about that war. It was that, among other emotional teenage things--narrow and personal-- that pushed her to leave.

The ones who were investigating the conspiracy, were the grown-up ones, Ozma and Cathy. Among other evidence they could have found off-screen, they found proof that the official story about the death of Cathy's dad is not true which would imply a possible power-grab. They reported this to Captain Wilder, and the three decided that the best course of action was for SMS to mutiny from Mushroom-head's illegitimate government and gather more convincing proof (what they had on the power grab would be Ozma and Cathy's testimony as the forensic evidence they saw would've been cleaned up) as well as dig deeper into the conspiracy.

It came to pass that Ranka just played into Grace's plan, while SMS did find evidence enough to clear things out and turn the direction of the war.

Compare and contrast. Although I couldn't judge them as right or wrong though, it's something for in-universe Macross history to decide. Hahah.

Also, Irisiel, I wouldn't put it past the Vajra to be vicious while doing their extraction mission. Those that raided Frontier were fighting units after all. Besides, Ranka's lines at the last episode were clearly exposition lines, so let's take her word about it.

Last edited by CrowKenobi; 2010-10-26 at 22:15.
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Old 2010-10-25, 19:55   Link #2022
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Anyway, to clear things up, when Ranka left Frontier at Ep 21, all she had was a nagging suspicion that this entire war between Frontier and Vajra wasn't right (like all other wars, but anyway) and her only evidence was this friendly Ai-kun Vajra that does not make sense in the prevailing Frontier mindset about that war. It was that, among other emotional teenage things--narrow and personal-- that pushed her to leave.
Is this spelled out somewhere, or is it just your speculation?
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Old 2010-10-25, 20:37   Link #2023
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Is this spelled out somewhere, or is it just your speculation?
You mean other than what the show itself portrayed? And her own lines to Alto and Brera?
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Old 2010-10-25, 21:09   Link #2024
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You mean other than what the show itself portrayed? And her own lines to Alto and Brera?
"I've been able to piece together small fragments of my past. It's scary, but I have to find out about it no matter what. That's why I will go. And I want to at least bring Ai-kun back to where his people are."

So, the question is, how much does Ranka know about her past? Does she realize yet that she's the key to the whole conflict? Or does she suspect?

If so, then it's not as narrow and vague as CaptGloval says it is.

It's clear that she's having a tough time explaining herself to Alto, since she's doing everything she can to delay the moment, and calm him down. Which leads me to believe that she knows more than she's saying.

The people saying "Oh, she just wants to take Ai-kun back, she's selfish and thoughtless" are already predisposed to dislike Ranka and cast any aspersions on her that they can. Looking at the scene, I simply can't subscribe to that interpretation.
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Old 2010-10-25, 22:09   Link #2025
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Neither can I. However, going from a nagging suspicion to a certainty is quite the leap. It does seem plausible that she knows quite a lot more than what she lets on to Alto when she says what should have been her final farewell words, but... It'll stay in the debatable zone until someone like The Hory Froating Head himself flat out states what, exactly, was she trying to achieve. End the war? Ok. But did she have any inkling as to how to accomplish that feat?
Maybe in the second movie, we'll get a more in-depth exploration of this...

In any event, I do believe she was in the wrong, going out into the wild practically alone like that. And that's not really likely to change anytime soon.
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Old 2010-10-26, 02:29   Link #2026
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Alto was completely right in not going with her. From his perspective, it was a suicide mission. Hell, from Rankas perspective it should have been one. She couldn't be sure at all that the Vajra would react positively to her, after what happened during the last two episodes.
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Old 2010-10-26, 03:03   Link #2027
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Alto was completely right in not going with her. From his perspective, it was a suicide mission. Hell, from Rankas perspective it should have been one. She couldn't be sure at all that the Vajra would react positively to her, after what happened during the last two episodes.
Wouldn't that also mean that her staying is just as dangerous as her leaving? This is the point I've made before and I still stand by it. I'm not saying her decision to leave is right but I don't see it as entirely wrong either. All she knew by that time is that her singing now had a negative effect on the Vajra (which is why I believe she chose not to sing after the chaos which pretty much destroyed the colony.)
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Old 2010-10-26, 03:42   Link #2028
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Wouldn't that also mean that her staying is just as dangerous as her leaving? This is the point I've made before and I still stand by it. I'm not saying her decision to leave is right but I don't see it as entirely wrong either. All she knew by that time is that her singing now had a negative effect on the Vajra (which is why I believe she chose not to sing after the chaos which pretty much destroyed the colony.)
Uh, she could just have not sung anymore? Or tell the military about the effect it had and let them do testing?

And if she knew that her singing had a negative effect on the Vajra, like you claim now, wasn't her leaving even more of a suicide mission? On which she wanted to coerce Alto into participating?

Any way you turn it, it was a crap shoot by Ranka, which could have gone horribly, horribly wrong. And DID. If it wasn't for everybody coming to rescue her, Grace would be bitch-queen of the galaxy. And that doesn't even mention the sheer thoughtlessness Ranka displayed in so many aspects of that decision to go. I shan't go into detail once more of them, but it still makes angry after all that time.
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Old 2010-10-26, 03:58   Link #2029
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Wouldn't that also mean that her staying is just as dangerous as her leaving? This is the point I've made before and I still stand by it. I'm not saying her decision to leave is right but I don't see it as entirely wrong either. All she knew by that time is that her singing now had a negative effect on the Vajra (which is why I believe she chose not to sing after the chaos which pretty much destroyed the colony.)
I think she knows how her songs can influence the Vajra. The first time she manipulated the Vajra were irritated. The second time she sung the vajra were quite aggressive (broken heart) and the third time she influenced them again (sadness).

The point what most don't understand or let's say where the interpretation leads to two ways are those who see her in responsibility as a tool to defend the fleet and those who say that she has to chooose her own way but to take the responsibility for her actions.

The expirements with Rankas singing shows that she can influence the vajra in both ways but a few people - including Alto - would rather see the Vajra dead rather than experimenting more. At this point. magnus is correct. But on the other side Alto is blinded by the false government and Ozma reminds him of that.


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Uh, she could just have not sung anymore? Or tell the military about the effect it had and let them do testing?

And if she knew that her singing had a negative effect on the Vajra, like you claim now, wasn't her leaving even more of a suicide mission? On which she wanted to coerce Alto into participating?
The military knew it but developing a "song weapon" is quite impossible as the missing fragment to this is the bacteria she inherited by birth. Also they developed a lot of weapons but they were too late. Other point is that the Leon and also Alto asks her to sing although she asks them not to.
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Old 2010-10-26, 04:12   Link #2030
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The military knew it but developing a "song weapon" is quite impossible as the missing fragment to this is the bacteria she inherited by birth. Also they developed a lot of weapons but they were too late. Other point is that the Leon and also Alto asks her to sing although she asks them not to.
To which she simply could have said "no". And at that point nobody knew about the Vajra bacteria in her blood.
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Old 2010-10-26, 06:52   Link #2031
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To which she simply could have said "no". And at that point nobody knew about the Vajra bacteria in her blood.
She said twice no.
She said no in Episode 20 and then again in Episode 21.
In Episode 20 she got slapped. And in Episode 21 during the funeral (which is a good PR act by Leon) she refused to be used as a tool.
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Old 2010-10-26, 07:12   Link #2032
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Correct. And she could have continued to say "no".
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Old 2010-10-26, 09:03   Link #2033
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She said twice no.
She said no in Episode 20 and then again in Episode 21.
In Episode 20 she got slapped. And in Episode 21 during the funeral (which is a good PR act by Leon) she refused to be used as a tool.
In both those circumstances however she did pay a part in the devastation that had happened before.

And the reason why she was slapped was because Ranka (in context) was the one who volunteered to sing in situations like that in the first place. It was also her immaturity that lead to the vajra becoming enraged. So in both those cases it was selfish for her to say no.

The second time at the funeral was just tastless of her, as she couldn't see past her own feelings to at least do the job that she volunteered for.

Both were the wrong times to suddenly decide that you don't want to become a tool. Again she agreed to be a tool.

Also whose not to say that if Ranka had actually told them what was going on the military wouldn't have tried to help her. Because as conniving that Leon was he still wanted the people of Frontier to live and complete their mission (what better PR than that?), by that time Leon also realized that Grace had betrayed him. So whose not to say he wouldn't have helped Ranka if only just to get back at Grace?

Ranka had other options but she chose not to take them.
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Old 2010-10-26, 09:16   Link #2034
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Neither can I. However, going from a nagging suspicion to a certainty is quite the leap. It does seem plausible that she knows quite a lot more than what she lets on to Alto when she says what should have been her final farewell words, but... It'll stay in the debatable zone until someone like The Hory Froating Head himself flat out states what, exactly, was she trying to achieve. End the war? Ok. But did she have any inkling as to how to accomplish that feat?
Maybe in the second movie, we'll get a more in-depth exploration of this...

In any event, I do believe she was in the wrong, going out into the wild practically alone like that. And that's not really likely to change anytime soon.
No, you make a good case. Without knowing what she knew and when she knew it, it's pretty much impossible for us to piece together what she had in mind.

The point I'm trying to make is that there is A LOT of ambiguity at play here. people can believe whatever they like, but none of it should be stated as a certainty.

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Alto was completely right in not going with her. From his perspective, it was a suicide mission. Hell, from Rankas perspective it should have been one. She couldn't be sure at all that the Vajra would react positively to her, after what happened during the last two episodes.
Maybe that was part of the memories she had regained...?

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Uh, she could just have not sung anymore? Or tell the military about the effect it had and let them do testing?

And if she knew that her singing had a negative effect on the Vajra, like you claim now, wasn't her leaving even more of a suicide mission? On which she wanted to coerce Alto into participating?

Any way you turn it, it was a crap shoot by Ranka, which could have gone horribly, horribly wrong. And DID. If it wasn't for everybody coming to rescue her, Grace would be bitch-queen of the galaxy. And that doesn't even mention the sheer thoughtlessness Ranka displayed in so many aspects of that decision to go. I shan't go into detail once more of them, but it still makes angry after all that time.
Well...that's part of the problem, isn't it? You're not willing to cede Ranka any quarter (so to speak), and presume the worst of her at any occasion. As such, any effort to communicate that PERHAPS she's not as dense as you say she is, falls on deaf ears.

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To which she simply could have said "no". And at that point nobody knew about the Vajra bacteria in her blood.
Are you sure about that? They tested her blood back in episode 2, and it's STRONGLY hinted that Leon prevented her from becoming Miss Macross.
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Old 2010-10-26, 09:21   Link #2035
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Correct. And she could have continued to say "no".
What would it bring only to say "no"? That's not very dramatical.
Anyhow, first she got slapped for her selfishness but on the other side Sheryl understood the progress she went through (maybe she experienced somehow the same?). But why did she sung? > please click here

The second time she said no by rejecting the offer but I believe Leon kept an option to use force.

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In both those circumstances however she did pay a part in the devastation that had happened before.

And the reason why she was slapped was because Ranka (in context) was the one who volunteered to sing in situations like that in the first place. It was also her immaturity that lead to the vajra becoming enraged. So in both those cases it was selfish for her to say no.
The reason why she was slapped was that she was selfish and she did not want to sing. Her singing was not to protect Macross but in first and most important reason she was singing - which was her own decision she made - was because of Alto. Those who decided to use he as a defense against the Vajra was the Government but they did not left her much to decide. Other took the decision and influenced her that she could only say yes at the end. Michel noticed that Ranka is singing because she is in love and Alto did not recognize it.

The slap was to wake her up and also to calm her down as she understands the progress what she is going through but also reminds her that she is the only one who can be used against the Vajra.


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The second time at the funeral was just tastless of her, as she couldn't see past her own feelings to at least do the job that she volunteered for.

Both were the wrong times to suddenly decide that you don't want to become a tool. Again she agreed to be a tool.

Also whose not to say that if Ranka had actually told them what was going on the military wouldn't have tried to help her. Because as conniving that Leon was he still wanted the people of Frontier to live and complete their mission (what better PR than that?), by that time Leon also realized that Grace had betrayed him. So whose not to say he wouldn't have helped Ranka if only just to get back at Grace?

Ranka had other options but she chose not to take them.
At a point I believe a plot is that Leon and Grace have part that the Vajra were brought on board of the fleet to start their coup de grace. Funny that the assassination was during the attack of the Vajra, right?

We had this theme already and I am strongly against the idealism that teenagers take responsibilities for a war although it is clear that they are not able to bear the whole mass of responsibilities behind this. And from what I understood it was only for testing her abilities and not to be used as full utilized tool. At the end I may be fooled and it was fully intended to be like that. In this case I would feel ashame to be a soldier.
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Old 2010-10-26, 09:25   Link #2036
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The second time she said no by rejecting the offer but I believe Leon kept an option to use force.
Problem is there wasn't anything to suggest that Leon would use force to get her to sing at that moment, and she was able to plan a get away in the next episode without Leon breathing down her back so there goes your theory right there.

And besides Ranka could probably get Leon to not force her to sing by explaining the situation to him. With Frontier already devastated as it was he wouldn't want Ranka to sing and attract more Vajra.
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Old 2010-10-26, 09:36   Link #2037
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Problem is there wasn't anything to suggest that Leon would use force to get her to sing at that moment, and she was able to plan a get away in the next episode without Leon breathing down her back so there goes your theory right there.

And besides Ranka could probably get Leon to not force her to sing by explaining the situation to him. With Frontier already devastated as it was he wouldn't want Ranka to sing and attract more Vajra.
I don't see in Leon a blessed man who is that good. He is willing to sacrifice people if its not intended for his own goods. (See the assassination of President Glass).
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Old 2010-10-26, 09:42   Link #2038
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I don't see in Leon a blessed man who is that good. He is willing to sacrifice people if its not intended for his own goods. (See the assassination of President Glass).
And he's not but in this case it would have worked in his best interest to not have Ranka sing, also he probably wouldn't have turned down the chance to one up Grace, and ruin her plans.

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Old 2010-10-26, 17:19   Link #2039
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Maybe that was part of the memories she had regained...?
You mean her memories how the Vajra wiped out the other fleet because of her singing? ^^

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Well...that's part of the problem, isn't it? You're not willing to cede Ranka any quarter (so to speak), and presume the worst of her at any occasion. As such, any effort to communicate that PERHAPS she's not as dense as you say she is, falls on deaf ears.
Um, I am going by the material as presented? Please tell me where I have actually misrepresented what Ranka did?

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Are you sure about that? They tested her blood back in episode 2, and it's STRONGLY hinted that Leon prevented her from becoming Miss Macross.
Leon reacted to her history of being parth of the 117th Exploration Fleet. Up until episode 16, President Glass didn't know why she could affect the Vajra in the way that she did. She was part of a project of the military, which were not under Leons control, so he had no way of manipulating their own tests.

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What would it bring only to say "no"? That's not very dramatical.
Anyhow, first she got slapped for her selfishness but on the other side Sheryl understood the progress she went through (maybe she experienced somehow the same?). But why did she sung? > please click here
The video doesn't work with German Youtube. And I can't make head or tails of what you tried to say there. Write proper English, please.

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The second time she said no by rejecting the offer but I believe Leon kept an option to use force.
Uh, what? No, he didn't.
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Old 2010-10-26, 21:59   Link #2040
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You mean her memories how the Vajra wiped out the other fleet because of her singing? ^^
Possibly...and also perhaps that the Vajra were merely trying to "rescue" her and that "Aimo" was a Vajra love song.

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Um, I am going by the material as presented? Please tell me where I have actually misrepresented what Ranka did?
Nowhere, really. And, to give you credit, I've never seen you jump to a thoroughly illogical conclusion about the material. And you're remarkably okay with the movie version of Ranka. But, given an ambiguous scene where one could either interpret Ranka's actions favorably or unfavorably, I believe you'll go for "unfavorably" nine times out of ten.

Which makes sense based on your interpretation of the character, but your inferences are not the ONLY logical inferences that could be made.
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