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Old 2010-10-27, 00:04   Link #2041
wisteria233
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@Yot-chan I think that's really because none of the regular members of this forum actually hate Ranka. We're just frustrated with her behavior. I can't speak for others but I personally started the series actually liking Ranka, however her actions in later episodes lead me to become disenfranchised with her, it didn't help that Ranka wasn't really shown to actually spare any thought for her loved ones, even in a time of crisis. It just made her seem too out of touch with the reality of her own world. I'm really happy to hear that her character improved and I wish that my movie torrent would download faster but it still stuck at 48% and I started downloading it yesterday.
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Old 2010-10-27, 02:29   Link #2042
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Nowhere, really. And, to give you credit, I've never seen you jump to a thoroughly illogical conclusion about the material. And you're remarkably okay with the movie version of Ranka. But, given an ambiguous scene where one could either interpret Ranka's actions favorably or unfavorably, I believe you'll go for "unfavorably" nine times out of ten.

Which makes sense based on your interpretation of the character, but your inferences are not the ONLY logical inferences that could be made.
I normally go from step one "What did the character do?" to step two "What was the stated motivation?" to step three "What seemed to be the actual intention?" to the step four "What were the results?". I can't change that this approach makes Rankas actions shine in a bad light. It's how she was written.

And, no, of course I don't hate Ranka. I pity da lil' fool.
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Old 2010-10-27, 03:57   Link #2043
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I've been wondering why Ranka's phone was changed color for the film. Do you guys think it could be because she uses it as a microphone in the last scene, and they didn't want it to clash with her green hair?
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Old 2010-10-27, 04:59   Link #2044
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I normally go from step one "What did the character do?" to step two "What was the stated motivation?" to step three "What seemed to be the actual intention?" to the step four "What were the results?". I can't change that this approach makes Rankas actions shine in a bad light. It's how she was written.

And, no, of course I don't hate Ranka. I pity da lil' fool.
May I ask you for your answers for the steps? I think maybe these are interesting to understand why you or other feel pity for her or starting to dislike her.
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Old 2010-10-27, 07:51   Link #2045
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I normally go from step one "What did the character do?" to step two "What was the stated motivation?" to step three "What seemed to be the actual intention?" to the step four "What were the results?". I can't change that this approach makes Rankas actions shine in a bad light. It's how she was written.
So where in this did you determine that Ranka didn't realize she was the key to the Vajra conflict before she left the fleet?
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Old 2010-10-27, 11:02   Link #2046
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May I ask you for your answers for the steps? I think maybe these are interesting to understand why you or other feel pity for her or starting to dislike her.
Uh, you'll have to go more specific on what aspect or particular deed you are talking about. Making a dissertation on Ranka as a whole is not something I am particularly keen about at this moment.

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So where in this did you determine that Ranka didn't realize she was the key to the Vajra conflict before she left the fleet?
Well, let's see first if that is what I claimed that I do.

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Alto was completely right in not going with her. From his perspective, it was a suicide mission. Hell, from Rankas perspective it should have been one. She couldn't be sure at all that the Vajra would react positively to her, after what happened during the last two episodes.
Then I responded to Dex allegation that Ranka knew that her singing had a negative effect on the Vajra.

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All she knew by that time is that her singing now had a negative effect on the Vajra (which is why I believe she chose not to sing after the chaos which pretty much destroyed the colony.)
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And if she knew that her singing had a negative effect on the Vajra, like you claim now, wasn't her leaving even more of a suicide mission? On which she wanted to coerce Alto into participating?
So I actually expressed an opinion that Ranka couldn't be sure of the effect her singing would have on the Vajra. The other possibility, that she knew that her singing had a negative effect on the Vajra, was expressed by Dex and I only pointed out that this would have been an even worse motivation than being uncertain of the effect.
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Old 2010-10-27, 11:16   Link #2047
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So I actually expressed an opinion that Ranka couldn't be sure of the effect her singing would have on the Vajra. The other possibility, that she knew that her singing had a negative effect on the Vajra, was expressed by Dex and I only pointed out that this would have been an even worse motivation than being uncertain of the effect.
Two points I think you're overlooking (and the reason I asked):

First, if she had recovered enough memory to realize that she was the key to the conflict, then she would've known that removing herself from Frontier would lead the Vajra away from the fleet (if it weren't for that meddling Grace). They have no reason to attack if she weren't there.

Second (and maybe I'm misremembering), but her singing could also affect the Vajra POSITIVELY as well, right? She knew this in the final episode, so she may have known this in episode 21. In which case, going to the Vajra and communicating with them would be the best way out of the conflict...again, if it weren't for Grace and her control over Brera.

Again, I'm not saying this was necessarily the case, but I don't think there's any evidence that contradicts it. Again, it all boils down to how much memory you think Ranka had recovered, and how much credit you give her.
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Old 2010-10-27, 11:28   Link #2048
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Two points I think you're overlooking (and the reason I asked):

First, if she had recovered enough memory to realize that she was the key to the conflict, then she would've known that removing herself from Frontier would lead the Vajra away from the fleet (if it weren't for that meddling Grace). They have no reason to attack if she weren't there.

Second (and maybe I'm misremembering), but her singing could also affect the Vajra POSITIVELY as well, right? She knew this in the final episode, so she may have known this in episode 21. In which case, going to the Vajra and communicating with them would be the best way out of the conflict...again, if it weren't for Grace and her control over Brera.

Again, I'm not saying this was necessarily the case, but I don't think there's any evidence that contradicts it. Again, it all boils down to how much memory you think Ranka had recovered, and how much credit you give her.
The problem here is that Ranka never states that she is sure how her singing will affect the Vajra. She several times states that she thinks she can solve the differences between the Vajra and the humans, but it is left unclear how much of that is simply hopeful assumptions by her.

But, quite honestly, that wasn't even the important point in the post which led us here, the point I tried to made there was that she didn't state this ( peace talks to the Vajra ) to Alto as her main motivation for leaving Frontier. To him she said that it was about taking Ai-kun back to his people, which is an incredibly dense thing to say to someone whose best friend was just killed by that very same race.
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Old 2010-10-27, 12:05   Link #2049
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The problem here is that Ranka never states that she is sure how her singing will affect the Vajra. She several times states that she thinks she can solve the differences between the Vajra and the humans, but it is left unclear how much of that is simply hopeful assumptions by her.

But, quite honestly, that wasn't even the important point in the post which led us here, the point I tried to made there was that she didn't state this ( peace talks to the Vajra ) to Alto as her main motivation for leaving Frontier. To him she said that it was about taking Ai-kun back to his people, which is an incredibly dense thing to say to someone whose best friend was just killed by that very same race.
That may not have been an important point for you, but it was the ENTIRE point for me.

And anyways, she didn't say that it was SOLELY about taking Ai-kun back to his people, she said "At least [せめて, "semete"] I want to take Ai-kun back to his people" which indicates (in both English and Japanese) that it's ONE of her goals, but not the most important.

Again: "I've been able to piece together small fragments of my past. It's scary, but I have to find out about it no matter what. That's why I will go. And I want to at least bring Ai-kun back to where his people are."

The last sentence is a total non-sequitur unless she has more planned. And I contend that's it's a possibility that she would've been successful if Grace hadn't intervened. But at this point, only Leon knew of Grace's involvement, yes?

(I'll grant you the point that she didn't communicate her plans well to Alto. Like, AT ALL. Trying to calm him down by getting him to make a paper airplane was a strategy that totally failed.)
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Old 2010-10-27, 12:47   Link #2050
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That may not have been an important point for you, but it was the ENTIRE point for me.
That's all very nice for you, but if you are challenging me on something, at least it would be nice if I actually said that. Wasn't that something about which complained to me a few weeks ago, when I partly got a statement you made weeks before wrong?

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And anyways, she didn't say that it was SOLELY about taking Ai-kun back to his people, she said "At least [せめて, "semete"] I want to take Ai-kun back to his people" which indicates (in both English and Japanese) that it's ONE of her goals, but not the most important.

Again: "I've been able to piece together small fragments of my past. It's scary, but I have to find out about it no matter what. That's why I will go. And I want to at least bring Ai-kun back to where his people are."

The last sentence is a total non-sequitur unless she has more planned. And I contend that's it's a possibility that she would've been successful if Grace hadn't intervened. But at this point, only Leon knew of Grace's involvement, yes?

(I'll grant you the point that she didn't communicate her plans well to Alto. Like, AT ALL. Trying to calm him down by getting him to make a paper airplane was a strategy that totally failed.)
It's still a spectacularly bad idea to end your plea for asistance with the most stupid reason to go on a suicide mission imaginable. But, as I said, in my eyes Ranka wasn't sure how her song would work on the Vajra. That seems the most reasonable inference from what she said and wrote to the other characters.
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Old 2010-10-27, 13:05   Link #2051
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That's all very nice for you, but if you are challenging me on something, at least it would be nice if I actually said that. Wasn't that something about which complained to me a few weeks ago, when I partly got a statement you made weeks before wrong?
No, it's got nothing to do with that. It's got everything to do with people saying that Ranka only wanted to take Ai-kun back. And I think I've shown that she had more on her mind than simply that.


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But, as I said, in my eyes Ranka wasn't sure how her song would work on the Vajra. That seems the most reasonable inference from what she said and wrote to the other characters.
Again, it's the most reasonable inference if you're predisposed to dislike (or pity, or whatever) Ranka.

She may not have been sure HOW it would affect the Vajra (although she'd gotten a pretty big hint that if she projects pain and sadness, they'll go on a killing spree), but it's pretty clear that she knew she could affect them one way or another.

And again, if she knew she was what they were looking for, removing herself from Frontier is the best, most selfless thing she could do.

She shouldn't HAVE to spell it out to Alto, really. It's clear to everyone that the Vajra are reacting to her, and her alone. But Alto's dense in a lot of ways, so I guess I can give him a pass here...
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Old 2010-10-27, 13:42   Link #2052
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Again, it's the most reasonable inference if you're predisposed to dislike (or pity, or whatever) Ranka.

She may not have been sure HOW it would affect the Vajra (although she'd gotten a pretty big hint that if she projects pain and sadness, they'll go on a killing spree), but it's pretty clear that she knew she could affect them one way or another.

And again, if she knew she was what they were looking for, removing herself from Frontier is the best, most selfless thing she could do.

She shouldn't HAVE to spell it out to Alto, really. It's clear to everyone that the Vajra are reacting to her, and her alone. But Alto's dense in a lot of ways, so I guess I can give him a pass here...
Dude. What did I just say? I'll say it again: "in my eyes Ranka wasn't sure how her song would work on the Vajra."

Where did you get that I denied that she knew she would affect the Vajra positively or negatively from that?

I will say, though, that she definitely could not be 100% sure what the Vajra were looking for. Otherwise whole sequences of the last episodes ( especially her giving her big exposition about the Vajras motives in episode 25 ) would not make sense.
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Old 2010-10-27, 13:48   Link #2053
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Dude. What did I just say? I'll say it again: "in my eyes Ranka wasn't sure how her song would work on the Vajra."
I know. I was taking up you idea and running with it...I guess I can see why it didn't come across. Let me rephrase: "As you say, she may not have been sure HOW it would affect the Vajra (although she'd gotten a pretty big hint that if she projects pain and sadness, they'll go on a killing spree), but it's pretty clear that she knew she could affect them one way or another."

My point being, if she knows she can affect them, then it's not a suicide mission or a fool's errand. It's the best hope Frontier has.

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I will say, though, that she definitely could not be 100% sure what the Vajra were looking for. Otherwise whole sequences of the last episodes ( especially her giving her big exposition about the Vajras motives in episode 25 ) would not make sense.
How so?
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Old 2010-10-27, 13:57   Link #2054
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Otherwise whole sequences of the last episodes ( especially her giving her big exposition about the Vajras motives in episode 25 ) would not make sense.
Actually it would make perfect sense. Wouldn't the sequences in the final episodes reveal Ranka's motivations for making those decisions in earlier episodes? In which most people were confused by when Ranka decided to leave.
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Old 2010-10-27, 14:13   Link #2055
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My point being, if she knows she can affect them, then it's not a suicide mission or a fool's errand. It's the best hope Frontier has.
That's what I've been trying to suggest all along!!! Not going to disrupt the discussion, but I am really glad that I am not the only one who has this idea

Now, both sides please continue
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Old 2010-10-27, 14:36   Link #2056
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I know. I was taking up you idea and running with it...I guess I can see why it didn't come across. Let me rephrase: "As you say, she may not have been sure HOW it would affect the Vajra (although she'd gotten a pretty big hint that if she projects pain and sadness, they'll go on a killing spree), but it's pretty clear that she knew she could affect them one way or another."

My point being, if she knows she can affect them, then it's not a suicide mission or a fool's errand. It's the best hope Frontier has.
Still too uncertain for my taste. At best she had assumptions what her song would actually do. Leaving Frontier for what she assumes could possibly work was a very irresponsible move.

We have to take into account that Ranka did not have a clue about Graces and Leons manipulations at the time of her departure. Neither did anyone tell her that the last attack on Frontier had degraded the bio-system in such a way that long-term survival of the colony was impossible. It is basically certain that she was not able to infer that on her own, since she never displayed any knowledge about the intricacies of the Frontier bio-system.

Therefore, looking at it from a perspective of what Rankas knowledge status at the point of her departure was, trying to work out what the problems were with her failed attempt at calming the Vajra with the military would have been her best option.

In that light, Rankas departure seems rash and impulsive. Given that there were other underlying issues ( a.) Ranka not wanting to sing anymore to protect Frontier, a thing she agreed to do; b.) Ranka realizing that Alto "did never hear her song" and wanting to put distance between the two of them ), it's really not hard to find major faults with what she did.

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How so?
There were several sequences after her departure where she gets more complete flashbacks from her past, including one where she fully realizes that it was her song which instigated the Vajra on the 117th. This means that she only had fragments of her memories. That logically infers that she left Frontier with incomplete information, making it a crap shoot.

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Actually it would make perfect sense. Wouldn't the sequences in the final episodes reveal Ranka's motivations for making those decisions in earlier episodes? In which most people were confused by when Ranka decided to leave.
If those scenes would simply have been her asserting that she had regained those memories by the time of her departure from Frontier, yes. But that is not what happened. Look at the beginning of episode 24. It is perfectly clear that Ranka had regained those memories just in that moment. She acted upon her incomplete memories when she left Frontier in episode 21.
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Old 2010-10-27, 15:16   Link #2057
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If those scenes would simply have been her asserting that she had regained those memories by the time of her departure from Frontier, yes. But that is not what happened. Look at the beginning of episode 24. It is perfectly clear that Ranka had regained those memories just in that moment. She acted upon her incomplete memories when she left Frontier in episode 21.
Yes, you're right. She did regain a lot of memories after her departure but it was the best she could do for both Frontier and the Vajra. It was blatantly obvious that her singing wasn't protecting Frontier anymore after chaos ensued following her attempt at taming the Vajra. Her singing wasn't solely taming the Vajra now but rather making them violent.

In the conversation between Alto and Ranka prior to her departure she says, "everyone wants...to live free don't they?" One can infer that she is referring to both the race of Humanity and the Vajra since she realized at the very least that the Vajra were a part of her life since childhood. Her motivations aren't as unjustified as you think it is.
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Old 2010-10-27, 15:33   Link #2058
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Yes, you're right. She did regain a lot of memories after her departure but it was the best she could do for both Frontier and the Vajra. It was blatantly obvious that her singing wasn't protecting Frontier anymore after chaos ensued following her attempt at taming the Vajra. Her singing wasn't solely taming the Vajra now but rather making them violent.

In the conversation between Alto and Ranka prior to her departure she says, "everyone wants...to live free don't they?" One can infer that she is referring to both the race of Humanity and the Vajra since she realized at the very least that the Vajra were a part of her life since childhood. Her motivations aren't as unjustified as you think it is.
The problem for me is not that her departure is wholly unjustified. The problem is that it was rash and stupid. And premeditatedly so. She knew that she woud go into incredible danger, she knew that she'd leave Frontier in the lurch and she knew that taking Alto would also put him in direct danger. And she still went ahead.

She also had, in episode 20, gotten her singing under control enough to lure the Vajra to Island-3. So she would have had reason to suspect that her singing would not necessarily be out of control forever. Which is another reason for her to stay and try to work out what could be done with the Frontier military. But, as I pointed out one post above, her reasons for leaving weren't necessarily only motivated by one longshot at peace with the Vajra, but also other underlying motivations to put distance between herself and her former life.

--

*edit* On an tangentially related matter, may I say how totally weird Rankas short sob-attack in Breras breast was in episode 20? She's like "Alto never heard my song, waaaaaah! <beat> Okay, I'm good.". Kinda shows how deeply she loved hime-sama.
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Old 2010-10-27, 15:56   Link #2059
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Still too uncertain for my taste.
But certainly, no LESS uncertain than your inferences.

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At best she had assumptions what her song would actually do. Leaving Frontier for what she assumes could possibly work was a very irresponsible move.
And yet, as I've pointed out twice before, maybe she knew the Vajra wanted her and only her. In which case, leaving Frontier would SAVE the fleet.

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We have to take into account that Ranka did not have a clue about Graces and Leons manipulations at the time of her departure. Neither did anyone tell her that the last attack on Frontier had degraded the bio-system in such a way that long-term survival of the colony was impossible. It is basically certain that she was not able to infer that on her own, since she never displayed any knowledge about the intricacies of the Frontier bio-system.

Therefore, looking at it from a perspective of what Rankas knowledge status at the point of her departure was, trying to work out what the problems were with her failed attempt at calming the Vajra with the military would have been her best option.
See above.

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In that light, Rankas departure seems rash and impulsive.
In that light, yes. But that light is "too uncertain for my taste."

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There were several sequences after her departure where she gets more complete flashbacks from her past, including one where she fully realizes that it was her song which instigated the Vajra on the 117th. This means that she only had fragments of her memories. That logically infers that she left Frontier with incomplete information, making it a crap shoot.
When did she learn that "Aimo" was the Vajra love song? That, it seems to me, would be the linchpin. Knowing that the Vajra responded to her song, learning WHY they responded to THAT SONG would give her a powerful tool in learning how to make them respond in the way that she wanted.

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The problem for me is not that her departure is wholly unjustified. The problem is that it was rash and stupid. And premeditatedly so. She knew that she woud go into incredible danger, she knew that she'd leave Frontier in the lurch and she knew that taking Alto would also put him in direct danger. And she still went ahead.

She also had, in episode 20, gotten her singing under control enough to lure the Vajra to Island-3. So she would have had reason to suspect that her singing would not necessarily be out of control forever. Which is another reason for her to stay and try to work out what could be done with the Frontier military. But, as I pointed out one post above, her reasons for leaving weren't necessarily only motivated by one longshot at peace with the Vajra, but also other underlying motivations to put distance between herself and her former life.
You're again guessing at how much she recalled in episode 21, and deciding (with little evidence) that she didn't know how or why the Vajra responded to her.

My feeling is that she MUST have known that, AND she must have known that the Vajra were after her (and not the fleet), or else she wouldn't have left.
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Old 2010-10-27, 16:02   Link #2060
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*edit* On an tangentially related matter, may I say how totally weird Rankas short sob-attack in Breras breast was in episode 20? She's like "Alto never heard my song, waaaaaah! <beat> Okay, I'm good.". Kinda shows how deeply she loved hime-sama.
Well, I guess it shows that one common criticism of her (that everything in her life revolves around Alto) just isn't true, then, doesn't it?
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