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Old 2010-10-26, 21:50   Link #21
Triple_R
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reckoner View Post
A problem about the faithfulness argument you're using is that you're assuming they have to blend all the routes into 1, while they can just use all the space they have to adapt 1 route faithfully, which IMO I would have prefered they do this with the fate/Stay Night Anime.

Really, a route is supposed to be a whole story. I think it's a crime to hack and slash at a story just fro the sake of showing them all. I prefer quality of my adaption thank you very much.
That's a good point.

Even Clannad, which I commend for making a firm choice (Tomoya/Nagisa) and sticking with it, did do some of the blending several routes into one.

I wonder if there's ever been an eroge adaptation that just took one route and ran entirely with it and it alone?
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Old 2010-10-26, 22:15   Link #22
Vexx
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
That's a good point.

Even Clannad, which I commend for making a firm choice (Tomoya/Nagisa) and sticking with it, did do some of the blending several routes into one.

I wonder if there's ever been an eroge adaptation that just took one route and ran entirely with it and it alone?
Lamune .... one route start to finish. The other girls are simply presented as 'people with problems to solve' or friendly comrades. The one bit of competition is one episode and more a momentary lament that I won't spoil.

I'm also a fan of the integrated approach... but only if the team has the skills. I've seen too many trainwrecks because the production staff simply lacked the acumen to weave the stories together. I've also seen enough fairly successful attempts to know it *can* be done.
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Old 2010-10-27, 02:25   Link #23
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I've been mulling my opinion over as I've read through this thread, and I think I can basically sum up my position as "I prefer unified and think it works better in general, but I also think that the nature of the source material has to be taken into account". You can probably pick up a lot of the nuances of my position from reading my earlier posts so I won't repeat them here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Reckoner View Post
Amagami SS is a good example of this, where it quickly builds up a relationship, then has it conclude in some cheesy way really fast because the story needs to end quickly. Would it have been so cheesy had it actually developed the characters properly at a good pace? Probably not.
Hmmm... I had always assumed Amagami SS was a relatively weak adaptation because the storylines themselves tended to be mostly fluff, but I'm willing to entertain the notion that they're simply being butchered by time compression. Anyone who has played the game feel like chiming in here?

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Originally Posted by Archon_Wing View Post
Unified all the way. Otherwise it is too disjointed and too hard to feel any development or attachment to the story-- we also run into interchangeable character syndrome. Unless you would like to establish oneself as a collection of short stories, but that's a hard thing to do and that's what really happens.
I'd actually say that Hatsukoi Limited proved that the "collection of short stories" approach works - but that it tends to work better if you have multiple male characters instead of using a harem approach.

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Originally Posted by Archon_Wing View Post
Omnibus also makes the main lead feel too unfocused and perhaps inconsiderate when combined with disappearing character syndrome. Kanon 2006 is a great show, but it wasn't a good romance for the most part just because there's too much plot dragging and the final romance feels tacked on. In fact, I just feel Key adaptations tend to be better about drama, friends, and family rather than romance due to the necessity of having to water down many of the relationships to platonic. This is not a bad thing, but it just shows the sheer difficulty of getting it right even with the best efforts.
Triple_R and I had a discussion a while back about how we thought Kanon would have been a stronger romance if it had paired Yuicchi and Shiori - you might have actually been there at the time.

Anyway, I agree that the Key/KyoAni stuff in general tends to do "drama, friends, and family" better than romance, which probably explains why I don't like them as much as EF, Sola, True Tears, etc... I'm one of those guys who tends to enjoy stories much more if there's a good romance involved. Once again, I'm interested in hearing the thoughts of game players - is the romance in the Key games themselves stronger than in the anime, or was were the games more about "drama, family, friends" too?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Reckoner View Post
Really, a route is supposed to be a whole story. I think it's a crime to hack and slash at a story just fro the sake of showing them all. I prefer quality of my adaption thank you very much.
In general, this is true, although I do feel the need to point out that there are VNs where the routes are explicitly designed to form part of an overarching story - ie. Higurashi, Umineko, and Ever 17. In fact, I'd actually go as far as to say I don't find the individual routes/chapters in these stories that compelling when taken invidually, the whole is much more than the sum of the parts.
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Old 2010-10-27, 03:08   Link #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 0utf0xZer0 View Post
Anyway, I agree that the Key/KyoAni stuff in general tends to do "drama, friends, and family" better than romance, which probably explains why I don't like them as much as EF, Sola, True Tears, etc... I'm one of those guys who tends to enjoy stories much more if there's a good romance involved. Once again, I'm interested in hearing the thoughts of game players - is the romance in the Key games themselves stronger than in the anime, or was were the games more about "drama, family, friends" too?
I sort of played Clannad and I can definitely say that certain routes were much stronger in the romance department than others. Especially the Tomoyo route, as you really got a sense of their romantic relationship and it was developed slowly and nicely. It progressed fairly smoothly and just came together beautifully IMO.

I think part of the problem with the anime was they chose Nagisa's route (Well duh, afterstory is about her) and while this was the correct choice to make, her route is not very romantic and just more dramatic, in particular in Afterstory. That's why the romance never felt like a prime focus in the anime while it would have been had they gone another girls route.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 0utf0xZer0 View Post
In general, this is true, although I do feel the need to point out that there are VNs where the routes are explicitly designed to form part of an overarching story - ie. Higurashi, Umineko, and Ever 17. In fact, I'd actually go as far as to say I don't find the individual routes/chapters in these stories that compelling when taken invidually, the whole is much more than the sum of the parts.
In which case, an integrated approach is just fine. So yeah, you got to consider the work you are dealing with for sure.

I'm still working myself through Ever 17 sigh... But I am more motivated to finish it now that Remember 11 has finally been translated .
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Old 2010-10-27, 11:54   Link #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 0utf0xZer0 View Post
...
I'd actually say that Hatsukoi Limited proved that the "collection of short stories" approach works - but that it tends to work better if you have multiple male characters instead of using a harem approach.

Omnibus also makes the main lead feel too unfocused and perhaps inconsiderate when combined with disappearing character syndrome. Kanon 2006 is a great show, but it wasn't a good romance for the most part just because there's too much plot dragging and the final romance feels tacked on. In fact, I just feel Key adaptations tend to be better about drama, friends, and family rather than romance due to the necessity of having to water down many of the relationships to platonic. This is not a bad thing, but it just shows the sheer difficulty of getting it right even with the best efforts.

...
Ah, I'd forgotten about Hatsukoi. You just made me realize what leaves me feeling odd about Amagami. Basically each arc in Amagami has re-invented the protagonist's personality from the outset rather than creating a new protagonist as Hatsukoi did. I'd have been more impressed with Amagami if they'd started with really the same personality and had him evolve differently as he interacts with the girl of the story.
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Old 2010-10-27, 12:41   Link #26
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Originally Posted by DragoZERO View Post
Omnibus is best - hands down. If they had done that for the Fate/stay night anime, it would be been so much better.
That has nothing with the omnibus stuff etc: F/SN has more like 3 specific storyline with each of them a different love interest.
There is no way to actually merge the 3 routes for this peculiar VN, because the "triggers" of the main story are drastically different. That has nothing to do with character route, whereas heroines have their personal issues which aren't always mutually exclusive.

This is also why we never say "Saber's route / Rin's Route / Sakura's route" even if we consider as such because of the romance. If you remove that part, they are way too different hence the route name, not the heroine's.

Quote:
But I think one reason they don't is because they want people to go out and buy the VN, especially if it's a PS2 port of an eroge, lol.
That is irrelevant. The first and foremost objective is to sell DVD and blu ray, and an adaptation is mainly a bait for people who had played the game.



I personally dislike the omnibus format to the very core when it is about romance driven series, as its advantages are basically a mere method to please "shippers" as a whole.
I'm not trying to offend anyone, but I always think there is always a way to give a character its lion share of lime light and development through their route, and not always with the "crowning" pairing with the main character.
In fact, having a specific pairing or another just doesn't change a character as a whole (although I will give you that it also gives the opportunity to see that character under a different light), so it isn't like a character is not "complete" without their love interest fulfilled.

The first aftermath of such method is of course an obnoxious pace for the development as a whole, be it every characters themselves and when the pairing is kicking off.
Furthermore, it just makes me think I'm watching multiple spin off of the same universe with little to no cohesion or blended story telling as result.
It makes the storytelling much more convulated and doesn't give an integrity for the franchise itself.

Of course, there are exceptions that require a different approach, but this is because the original plot cannot allow any kind of unified storytelling to begin with.
And for these, they aren't romance driven one bit, although they certainly may have a certain chunk of that.
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Old 2010-10-27, 13:07   Link #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Klashikari View Post
That has nothing with the omnibus stuff etc: F/SN has more like 3 specific storyline with each of them a different love interest.
There is no way to actually merge the 3 routes for this peculiar VN, because the "triggers" of the main story are drastically different. That has nothing to do with character route, whereas heroines have their personal issues which aren't always mutually exclusive.

This is also why we never say "Saber's route / Rin's Route / Sakura's route" even if we consider as such because of the romance. If you remove that part, they are way too different hence the route name, not the heroine's.
How does it have nothing to do with it? What makes VNs so special and so great is how they tell multiple stories and that's what we are talking about here. Any VN that has different routes is valid. It might be better to have a cour or two for each route in the case of VNs like F/SN (two cours a route would fit there) instead of a few episodes but it doesn't change the concept of resetting the story and that's what we are talking about here.

I support the omnibus format however hope they make the series longer so they are not pressed for time because that is the real limiter and what ultimately makes the difference.
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Old 2010-10-27, 13:20   Link #28
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It isn't about being great: it is about consistency and cirmcunstances.
UBW happens because of the very specific first scene (Command Spell 1), whereas HF only occurs because of Sakura.
Not going in the spoilers areas, but for F/SN, you -cannot- blend the routes because the triggers for each route do -not- work with the rest, otherwise you are going to a very critical issue in term of consistency.
It has nothing to do with the romance at all. Even if you were to remove the romance (for the benefit of "what if", since HF wouldn't work without the romance), you would still have to seperate the routes.

VN that involves -specific- routes that cannot occur together has a proper reason for being told several times in a different way. Otherwise, the other VN are all eligible for the unified storytelling.
To me, omnibus is basically an exception because the said VN require that method in order to work properly since the merging the routes is impossible (another example of such VN: you just cannot merge Higurashi and Umineko arcs at all).

However, if we take Clannad for instance, even though the routes are very different from each other, it is possible to tie them together and unified them, provided you make some changes for some characters (Kyou and Tomoyo). The routes do not have any contradicting facts conflicting each other, aside the aforementioned 2.
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Old 2010-10-27, 15:04   Link #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reckoner View Post
I sort of played Clannad and I can definitely say that certain routes were much stronger in the romance department than others. Especially the Tomoyo route, as you really got a sense of their romantic relationship and it was developed slowly and nicely. It progressed fairly smoothly and just came together beautifully IMO.
What about Kotomi? I'm a total sucker for romance involving shy girls, but at the same time, she has so much trouble communicating in the anime I always got the impression the romantic development in her route would be pretty limited.

(Actually, I'm still wondering if she hoped that Tomoya would pick her in the anime. Her personality type means she doesn't really give many signs either wya.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Reckoner View Post
In which case, an integrated approach is just fine. So yeah, you got to consider the work you are dealing with for sure.

I'm still working myself through Ever 17 sigh... But I am more motivated to finish it now that Remember 11 has finally been translated .
I'm never quite sure with you whether I should not talk about Coco's Route (I keep thinking that the fanbase hypes it beyond any reasonable expectation) or stress that you've come this far and there is a reason it attracts the praise it does. I simply mention that it would be a weak standalone because it assumes familiarity with the events of other routes. It simply wouldn't have the same impact for someone who doesn't have that background.

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Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
Ah, I'd forgotten about Hatsukoi. You just made me realize what leaves me feeling odd about Amagami. Basically each arc in Amagami has re-invented the protagonist's personality from the outset rather than creating a new protagonist as Hatsukoi did. I'd have been more impressed with Amagami if they'd started with really the same personality and had him evolve differently as he interacts with the girl of the story.
What's interesting about Hatsukoi Limited is that most of its relationships work despite only having one to two episodes to develop. Much of this is probably due to the comedic nature of the series - most of the storylines aren't very complex compared to more dramatic romances. However, I think the fact that it can alternate pairings rather than having to do back to back episodes with the same pair helps too, it prevents the relationships from feeling as rushed.

Of course, it had to sell terribly despite having one of my favourite Bluray extras ever (it's a guilty pleasure).
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Old 2010-10-30, 12:21   Link #30
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I do not agree with tiose who said than with only four episodes we can't have an emotional and interesting story. Four episodes means that we have around 90 minutes which is the same length than a movie. It's more than enough to have a good story. The problem is not the format but the staff's skill.

For example, in Amagami, there are many useless moments (for example the first part of the last episode of Ai's arc) which reduce the time for character development. It's not because of the format but because of how it's used.

I want also said that Amagami format is very interesting because in each arc you learn a bit more about the other charcater too and I think, it's really great.

In the end, all I hope is that this format will be used more often but that doesn't mean the unified format should not be used anymore. It depends of the visual novel etc..

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Old 2010-10-30, 12:56   Link #31
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I have compliments yet complaints about both.

Omnibus feels a little more like a visual novel. Each heroine gets the chance to be the romantic lead with the main character and their sole path/story is being focused on for a couple of episodes. However this is unrealistic and usually the other heroines are sometimes forgotten in these instances.

Unified is pretty much the exact opposite, all the heroines get a good amount of equal screen-time and the way the story progresses is in a much more realistic way. However some of the heroine's stories won't get as fleshed out as much they could be and while in the source material they had romantic feelings for the lead, sometimes they aren't even implied to have such feelings in the adaptation. Plus there's only one heroine who ends up in a relationship with the main character in the end.


Hard to say what I'd prefer since each has it's own ups and downs.
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Old 2010-11-01, 21:13   Link #32
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So the verdict is that the practicality of each method depends on the source, though personally I like unified better. Omnibus, theoretically, can work in any situation assuming an ideal case where time is not a problem (or when a staff is competent, but that's a deus ex machina). Still, there is just something about resets that feels horribly cheap to me, as if the staff just can't be bothered to put in effort. I'll admit that my opinion about omnibus isn't particularly informed, seeing as the only one I've watched is Amagami SS, but from what I've seen of unified approaches they at least tend to be more engaging. Even if it turns out horrible, I'd give it brownie points for trying.

Also, looking back at my visual novel list, I see that my favorites (Ever17, Cross Channel, et al.) put most of their emphasis on the "true route" / overarching plot instead of individual routes. That definitely says something about my preference.
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Old 2010-11-02, 04:26   Link #33
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The Omnibus format is sad (unless there is a harem route).

When you go through each route, you learn about the different problems each of the character faces. You see how each character works to solve their problems. Then it resets..... As you go through each plot, you slowly realize that when the character solves one problem, they can't solve the other one - the "path not taken." I want to see every character's problem solved in all routes but in an omnibus...just like in real life...this is nearly, impossible

Ugh, I feel like Ken Sugisaki now. You just want everyone to be happy but in an omnibus....they just can't be.

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Old 2010-11-02, 15:10   Link #34
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Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
OTOH... I suspect the producers smell easier or more predictable revenue from the omnibus format.
In fact, producers prefer the unified format. There are some major disadvantages in the omnibus format.

First, with the omnibus format one heroine's arc's sale may drastically depend on her popularity. You don't have any clues about how many copies should be shipped. This is a risk. With the unified format, on the other hand, you can predict each volume sells evenly (to be fair, on the downside). Second, viewers who are not interested in the heroine or the arc on air may stop watching the series itself. (I think this is why they can't make every arc long.) That is also a situation producers want to avoid.

The unified format is a safer option to make a VN with multiple routes into an adaptation.

To prevent those two risks of the omnibus format, heroines show themselves in other heroines' arcs, but I wonder it's working well?

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That is irrelevant. The first and foremost objective is to sell DVD and blu ray, and an adaptation is mainly a bait for people who had played the game.
It may look like it is, but in fact the objective of an anime adaptation is to make people who have NOT played/read the original game/novel/manga want to buy it. This is a manga case, but Square Enix plainly states the subjective of making an anime adaptation out of their manga is to boost up the manga's sale. In the case of FMA:B, they recovered the cost of producing the anime adaptation by the manga's boosted sale by the time the first cour ended.

People who had played the original VN are tens of thousands at most while people who have not played the original VN and watch the anime adaptation are hundreds of thousands to millions. Your target should be the latter of course. The same goes for manga and novels.

I'm not saying that they don't care for the anime's sale.
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Old 2010-11-02, 15:32   Link #35
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Your example with FMA:B is not really within the context here. Square Enix is part of the production of the anime -and- publisher of the manga, so it is obvious it will benefit them in both sides.

Also, please remember we are talking about VN adaptation. In such case, the fact people are interested by the VN as result doesn't benefit directly the studio behind the anime adaptation.
For all they care, the sales of the blu ray and DVD are much more important than the sales of the VN, especially there is no real way to figure if the adaptation is actually effective for the sales of the VN
You never see -any- ad about the original game in any website of the anime adaptation ever. At most, you have the mandatory game studio link.

Unless there are obvious evidences of VN sales spike due to anime adaptation, I don't see the relevancy of the argument.
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Old 2010-11-02, 17:19   Link #36
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Originally Posted by 0utf0xZer0 View Post
Anyway, I agree that the Key/KyoAni stuff in general tends to do "drama, friends, and family" better than romance, which probably explains why I don't like them as much as EF, Sola, True Tears, etc... I'm one of those guys who tends to enjoy stories much more if there's a good romance involved. Once again, I'm interested in hearing the thoughts of game players - is the romance in the Key games themselves stronger than in the anime, or was were the games more about "drama, family, friends" too?
I think the lack of romance in CLANNAD is because they chose Nagisa for the main story. Nagisa's route is much more drama than romance, especially when you get into After Story. The other routes included are either more drama than romance (Ex: Fuko) or had to be edited to remove most of the romance (Ex: Tomoyo)

I don't think either Unified or Omnibus works for all series. I think CLANNAD's unified format worked pretty well as most of the routes are "drama, family, friends" rather than romance. That should work fine as long as the routes that are to be fit into one aren't romantic, maybe except for one, but when all of the routes are romantic, I think too many compromises have to be made to make unified work.
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Old 2010-11-05, 13:58   Link #37
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Originally Posted by Klashikari View Post
Your example with FMA:B is not really within the context here. Square Enix is part of the production of the anime -and- publisher of the manga, so it is obvious it will benefit them in both sides.

Also, please remember we are talking about VN adaptation. In such case, the fact people are interested by the VN as result doesn't benefit directly the studio behind the anime adaptation.
For all they care, the sales of the blu ray and DVD are much more important than the sales of the VN, especially there is no real way to figure if the adaptation is actually effective for the sales of the VN
You never see -any- ad about the original game in any website of the anime adaptation ever. At most, you have the mandatory game studio link.

Unless there are obvious evidences of VN sales spike due to anime adaptation, I don't see the relevancy of the argument.
I was going to give a comment on your "a bait for peole who had played the game", but I went too far and included manga and novels. I've read producers' interviews about the importance of manga and novels' sales, not VNs. I'll take back my comment about it. I did go too far. Would you agree to what I wanted to say, "it's for people who have not played the game"?

After my takeback, the following is meaningless. You can skip it.

The reason I gave an example of FMA:B is to show how much an adaptation can make its original work famous and boost the sales of that. Generally, when people become fans of an anime adaptation, they buy its original work rather than the anime. I guess there are several reasons such as they want to know details the anime skipped or simply the original work is much cheaper than the anime.

You may not see any ads in websites, but the commercials for the original game air during the anime. To be precise, it's for a port of the original game. In every VN adaptation case, a port of the original game is released during the anime airing or soon after the anime finished.

TV is a powerful medium; an anime adaptation rises the sales of its original work and related products. Something wrong with it?
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Old 2013-02-28, 19:01   Link #38
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Sorry for the necro of the over two years old thread, but last I checked, that's how things roll here on Anime Suki.


Anyway, Little Busters! has changed my take on this a bit. Previously, I had a strong preference for unified over omnibus, but now I'm not so sure.

Here's why.

Spoiler for Major Little Busters! spoilers:



I'm starting to think that Clannad might be that once in a decade exception of where unified simply works. Otherwise, romance suffers.

Would Little Busters! be better if it went with omnibus over unified? Honestly, I'm starting to lean that way.


What do other people think?
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Old 2013-02-28, 21:01   Link #39
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Would Little Busters! be better if it went with omnibus over unified? Honestly, I'm starting to lean that way.
Maybe if you're watching for romance. But for me, Little Busters! works better the way it is, because the theme is friendship, and while he do have a male protagonist, a lot of the appeal is the interaction of all the cast amongst each other. You have this core original group, and they open up and integrate all the new-comers. This gives me a pretty good feeling of the Little Busters as a friendly and fun environment. For me, this is why I enjoy the show, and why I actually enjoy it more now than I did initially. I'm afraid that this friendly-environment theme wouldn't come through in omnibus and the show would never have had a chance to grow on me.
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Old 2013-02-28, 22:42   Link #40
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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
I'm starting to think that Clannad might be that once in a decade exception of where unified simply works. Otherwise, romance suffers.

Would Little Busters! be better if it went with omnibus over unified? Honestly, I'm starting to lean that way.


What do other people think?
The problem with this question is source material readers have more insight into this as usual, but I'll try to tread the line as best as possible here .

Your example is simply not the best one, though if you used other VN examples, you would have a better point IMO.

Spoiler for Not really a LB spoiler, but for those sensitive people:


The obvious limitations of omnibus in general is budget and time. Most VN adaptions get nothing more than 1 cour of material. Think something like Koy Senkyo to Chocolate, which I think really suffered from trying to mesh together too many routes and was really lacking as a result. This is the type of story where either they should have omnibus'd it with many episodes, or just choose one route from the beginning like Mashiro-Iro Symphony, which more or less stuck to one route. These are stories though where romance is very critical to each of the routes in some way, so it makes sense that "omnibus" would be more satisfying. Not all VN's really care about romance though.
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