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Old 2010-10-27, 16:06   Link #2061
magnuskn
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Originally Posted by Yot-chan View Post
My feeling is that she MUST have known that, AND she must have known that the Vajra were after her (and not the fleet), or else she wouldn't have left.
I'll skip all the other stuff, because this is the crux of the matter.

You are going off pure hypothesis. I am going off what was actually presented to us in the series. The degree of probability is highly in my favour. I never declared what I said as the one absolute truth ( at least the parts which were not shown directly in the series to be so ), but I got plenty of evidence to back those ideas up. Saying that lack of information trumps the actual information is not scientific method for making an analysis.
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Old 2010-10-27, 16:09   Link #2062
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The problem for me is not that her departure is wholly unjustified. The problem is that it was rash and stupid. And premeditatedly so. She knew that she woud go into incredible danger, she knew that she'd leave Frontier in the lurch and she knew that taking Alto would also put him in direct danger. And she still went ahead.
And of course we'll never reach a consensus on this matter either because we have entirely different perspectives on this as well.

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She also had, in episode 20, gotten her singing under control enough to lure the Vajra to Island-3. So she would have had reason to suspect that her singing would not necessarily be out of control forever. Which is another reason for her to stay and try to work out what could be done with the Frontier military. But, as I pointed out one post above, her reasons for leaving weren't necessarily only motivated by one longshot at peace with the Vajra, but also other underlying motivations to put distance between herself and her former life.
Although for the sake of argument here, that's not entirely true. Ranka's singing has always lured the Vajra and that didn't change but rather, the Vajra's behavior is what seem to have changed in episode 21. If you notice when Ranka sings for the second time, they are still violent and their plan was to purge a part of the colony since that was as much as they could do at that point.

I also disagree with what you seem to call Ranka's "underlying" motivations otherwise I believe she would have just left without notifying Alto at all. Ranka's plan was a direct result of finding out what Ai-kun was along with putting pieces of her past together.
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Old 2010-10-27, 16:21   Link #2063
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And yet, as I've pointed out twice before, maybe she knew the Vajra wanted her and only her. In which case, leaving Frontier would SAVE the fleet.
The problem with Ranka isn't the reason for her decision, it's that the series gives us no insight into what her feelings and thoughts are about Frontier or anything else while she's carrying them out. It doesn't matter if her decision was selfish or noble, because it wasn't conveyed properly either way.
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Old 2010-10-27, 16:23   Link #2064
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And of course we'll never reach a consensus on this matter either because we have entirely different perspectives on this as well.
True enough, in the end I can only say that the facts are the facts, the rest is what I personally infer as most logical from those facts.

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Although for the sake of argument here, that's not entirely true. Ranka's singing has always lured the Vajra and that didn't change but rather, the Vajra's behavior is what seem to have changed in episode 21. If you notice when Ranka sings for the second time, they are still violent and their plan was to purge a part of the colony since that was as much as they could do at that point.
She still managed to lure them, which pointed to a much higher degree of control than she had demonstrated before. The logical inference still is that she could have worked out the kinks with the Frontier military, especially seeing how just one episode later we saw that there were programs about the use of fold waves ( when Luca noticed that Sheryl was emanating them ).

Now, it is of course quite okay to say that this possibility simply didn't occur to Ranka.

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I also disagree with what you seem to call Ranka's "underlying" motivations otherwise I believe she would have just left without notifying Alto at all. Ranka's plan was a direct result of finding out what Ai-kun was along with putting pieces of her past together.
Sorry, but those underlying things were pretty much spelled out. Ranka thinking to herself that Alto never heard her song, with giving him the "goodbye, I really wanted you to be it" speech showed quite clearly that she had realized that Alto wasn't that much into her as she thought. Of course this is kinda conflictive with her wanting him to accompany her, but I'd say this was a last-ditch attempt to sway him romantically.

And for the "fleeing from having to sing for Frontier" motivation, she herself said that she couldn't do it anymore.
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Old 2010-10-27, 16:25   Link #2065
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I'll skip all the other stuff, because this is the crux of the matter.

You are going off pure hypothesis. I am going off what was actually presented to us in the series.
Saying that doesn't make it so.

Do you at least agree that if she knew the Vajra were ONLY after her, then leaving the fleet is not irresponsible?

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The problem with Ranka isn't the reason for her decision, it's that the series gives us no insight into what her feelings and thoughts are about Frontier or anything else while she's carrying them out. It doesn't matter if her decision was selfish or noble, because it wasn't conveyed properly either way.
I think it matters, but you're right that the show doesn't convey it. Which is why we're debating it.

Last edited by CrowKenobi; 2010-10-28 at 22:26. Reason: The "EDIT" button is your friend...
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Old 2010-10-27, 16:35   Link #2066
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Saying that doesn't make it so.
Well, you got to present evidence to make a counterclaim. Just going off "there was no evidence for my case, but your evidence is not 100% complete" isn't good enough.

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Do you at least agree that if she knew the Vajra were ONLY after her, then leaving the fleet is not irresponsible?
If she knew it with certainty ( which she didn't ), then it'd been okay, because she didn't know that Frontier was going to die off due to the biosystem breaking down.

It would still have resulted in catastrophe. But she'd have killed all those people with a clean heart.
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Old 2010-10-27, 16:37   Link #2067
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I think it matters, but you're right that the show doesn't convey it. Which is why we're debating it.
I mean it doesn't matter because Ranka can be an interesting, lovable character whether or not her motivations are pure or selfish. The reason people dislike her is because she was written badly, not because of her actions. Any action, with an interesting enough motivation, can make a character better.

Even if Ranka's motivation was pure as the driven snow, I don't think it would stop me from being disappointed in how her character ended up and the lack of empathy she displayed to her home and loved ones as shown by the narrative itself. Pure motivations only matter when the characters are torn because of them. Making Ranka a martyr isn't going to change anyone's opinion of her.
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Old 2010-10-27, 16:39   Link #2068
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If she knew it with certainty ( which she didn't ),
Proof?

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then it'd been okay, because she didn't know that Frontier was going to die off due to the biosystem breaking down.

It would still have resulted in catastrophe. But she'd have killed all those people with a clean heart.
Unless they'd landed on the Vajra planet. Once Ranka's back, the Vajra have what they want. They wouldn't attack the fleet if she weren't there.

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I mean it doesn't matter because Ranka can be an interesting, lovable character whether or not her motivations are pure or selfish. The reason people dislike her is because she was written badly, not because of her actions. Any action, with an interesting enough motivation, can make a character better.

Even if Ranka's motivation was pure as the driven snow, I don't think it would stop me from being disappointed in how her character ended up and the lack of empathy she displayed to her home and loved ones as shown by the narrative itself. Pure motivations only matter when the characters are torn because of them. Making Ranka a martyr isn't going to change anyone's opinion of her.
Which is exactly what I'm suggesting may not be the case.

At the VERY least, I think I've put an end to the "Oh, she didn't want to save the fleet, she just wanted to take Ai-kun back" nonsense.

Last edited by CrowKenobi; 2010-10-28 at 22:26. Reason: The "EDIT" button is your friend...
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Old 2010-10-27, 16:43   Link #2069
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I mean it doesn't matter because Ranka can be an interesting, lovable character whether or not her motivations are pure or selfish. The reason people dislike her is because she was written badly, not because of her actions. Any action, with an interesting enough motivation, can make a character better.

Even if Ranka's motivation was pure as the driven snow, I don't think it would stop me from being disappointed in how her character ended up and the lack of empathy she displayed to her home and loved ones as shown by the narrative itself. Pure motivations only matter when the characters are torn because of them. Making Ranka a martyr isn't going to change anyone's opinion of her.
The portrayal of Ranka's character was definitely disappointing but the inferences were still there. The movie certainly did a much better job at portraying Ranka's character and it's a shame they couldn't get it right for the TV series but better late than never.

Well some of us have different views of Ranka's character. I wouldn't necessarily say she's a martyr, I'd rather say she's idealistic.
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Old 2010-10-27, 16:45   Link #2070
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Proof?
Where's yours? You are very good at demanding proof, but not very good at providing it. Do some work, too.

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Unless they'd landed on the Vajra planet. Once Ranka's back, the Vajra have what they want. They wouldn't attack the fleet if she weren't there.
Uh, I think the Vajra would probably have still reacted negatively if the fleet arrived to fold bomb them into the face. Which would have happened. And you are disregarding one factor. Grace.

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At the VERY least, I think I've put an end to the "Oh, she didn't want to save the fleet, she just wanted to take Ai-kun back" nonsense.
Bravo, you slayed a dead dragon. Who was claiming that as her sole motive in the last year or so?
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Old 2010-10-27, 16:53   Link #2071
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Ranka was always a bit of a idealist, a contrast to Sheryl's more practical sense, but neither is really presented as being better or worse, but simply aspects of life. Kind of like how the original Macross examined war and peace.

She was in a tough spot, and I wish we had been exposed to more of what she was thinking when she did that. I get the feeling there was more to it than just getting Ai-kun home. Personally I always assumed Ranka wanted to understand the Vajra better, that she hoped that by following Ai-kun home she could learn more about the Vajra and maybe even come up with a means to communicate and mediate a peace, convince the Vajra that Frontier wasn't all bad and find something to convince Frontier that the Vajra could be reasoned with. She had Ai-kun and Ai-kun showed her that they could communicate with the Vajra to some degree. I mean she gives a whole exposition in the finale explaining that the Vajra didn't understand them anymore than they understood the Vajra, and that the whole reason for their fighting was because of that, and because they had no means of communication. She probably had that figured out from her journey. Considering next the sheer level of hatred on Frontier at that time against the Vajra and you get an atmosphere where you can't reason with the one side. Even Alto was just going to shoot Ai-kun, but no one but Ranka had any means of understanding the Vajra in even the most remote sense, so I can't really blame either Ranka or Alto.

Plus there was no way to be sure that the communication channel that let Ranka influence the Vajra wasn't a two-way street, and that's probably part of what Grace used to screw with Ranka's head and get her to sing the Vajra on against Frontier. I mean really there's as much to suggest that the Vajra were every bit as pissed at Frontier as Frontier was at them. The only reason either of them stopped killing each other was because Galaxy was revealed, which gave them a common enemy.

Not to say that what Ranka did wasn't dangerous, maybe even foolish, but I can't fault her for facing a situation, making a decision, and taking a course of action. Besides, Bless The Little Queen would have probably happened anyway just because Grace had control of her on Frontier just the same. It just required a quick adjustment to grab Ranka when she arrived at the Vajra Homeworld, it's not like Grace couldn't trace her on Brera's Lucifer.
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Old 2010-10-27, 16:59   Link #2072
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Where's yours? You are very good at demanding proof, but not very good at providing it. Do some work, too.
So you don't have any. Okay.

Anyway, the difference is this:

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No, you make a good case. Without knowing what she knew and when she knew it, it's pretty much impossible for us to piece together what she had in mind.

The point I'm trying to make is that there is A LOT of ambiguity at play here. people can believe whatever they like, but none of it should be stated as a certainty.
vs.

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If she knew it with certainty ( which she didn't ), It would still have resulted in catastrophe. But she'd have killed all those people with a clean heart.
You stated as a certainty that she didn't know the Vajra were only after her. All I'm asking is, how do you know that? I believe it's a natural question to ask.
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Old 2010-10-27, 17:07   Link #2073
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Which is exactly what I'm suggesting may not be the case.

At the VERY least, I think I've put an end to the "Oh, she didn't want to save the fleet, she just wanted to take Ai-kun back" nonsense.
No, that's not what I'm saying. The point isn't whether she wanted to take Ai-kun back or not, the point was in how the series portrayed her as doing so. The overwhelming feeling the series gives you directly before and during Ranka's leaving is a blank mystery on how she feels about seeing her home as a wreck and seeing one of Alto's closest friends killed in front of her very eyes.

The series has to address how Ranka feels and reacts to those things to have any emotional resonance in her choice to leave Frontier. Her leaving Frontier to save it COULD be framed as noble, but even if that's what's driving her actions in the series, it's not coming through. Merely giving an alternate interpretation as to her goals doesn't actually change the fact we see absolutely nothing, emotionally, from Ranka on our television screens. So it would fall flat regardless.

That's why I'm saying it doesn't matter. Whether Ranka's a bitch or a saint, she's still flat, two-dimensional, and gives off the feeling of being entirely self-absorbed in the final episodes of the series.
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Old 2010-10-27, 17:15   Link #2074
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No, that's not what I'm saying.
I'm not saying you did. I'm just pointing out something good that may have come out of this discussion.

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The point isn't whether she wanted to take Ai-kun back or not, the point was in how the series portrayed her as doing so. The overwhelming feeling the series gives you directly before and during Ranka's leaving is a blank mystery on how she feels about seeing her home as a wreck and seeing one of Alto's closest friends killed in front of her very eyes.

The series has to address how Ranka feels and reacts to those things to have any emotional resonance in her choice to leave Frontier. Her leaving Frontier to save it COULD be framed as noble, but even if that's what's driving her actions in the series, it's not coming through. Merely giving an alternate interpretation as to her goals doesn't actually change the fact we see absolutely nothing, emotionally, from Ranka on our television screens. So it would fall flat regardless.

That's why I'm saying it doesn't matter. Whether Ranka's a bitch or a saint, she's still flat, two-dimensional, and gives off the feeling of being entirely self-absorbed in the final episodes of the series.
I guess this'll come up in the rewatch thread, but...I never felt that way about it. And I certainly felt emotional resonance with the scene where she leaves. So I'm not sure I'd even call it bad writing... at the very least, it worked for me.
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Old 2010-10-27, 17:26   Link #2075
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So you don't have any. Okay.
Oh, so you are going to pretend what I posted this day didn't exist? Okay.

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You stated as a certainty that she didn't know the Vajra were only after her. All I'm asking is, how do you know that? I believe it's a natural question to ask.
Oh, for fucks sake. Let's do this properly, then, to dismantle this weaksauce argument, which you only bring up repeatedly to score some microscopical point as to how Ranka leaving Frontier in the lurch for her self-gratification and pity party isn't that bad.

- Episode 20: "I've been able to to piece together small fragments of my past lately. It's scary, but it feels like I have to find out about it no matter what. It just really feels that way... That is why I will go."

WHAT exactly implies here that she knows for a certainty that she is the only cause which attracts the Vajra? If you imply that as a possibility, YOU need to come up with evidence that supports that. Otherwise you are making just a frank assumption of motives, which runs contrary to the stated motives.
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Old 2010-10-27, 17:32   Link #2076
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WHAT exactly implies here that she knows for a certainty that she is the only cause which attracts the Vajra?
By the same token, what in that statement is implying that she doesn't? I mean, honestly, you guys are debating assumptions provided by intentionally vague statements... I don't see much of a future, in that, but more power to both of you.
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Old 2010-10-27, 17:40   Link #2077
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- Episode 20: "I've been able to to piece together small fragments of my past lately. It's scary, but it feels like I have to find out about it no matter what. It just really feels that way... That is why I will go."
That's true, she did say that. Hell, I'd still say Ranka-Vajra is a two-way street. I guess the only thing we can agree on is that she... *sunglasses pull* went with her gut.
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Old 2010-10-27, 17:45   Link #2078
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By the same token, what in that statement is implying that she doesn't? I mean, honestly, you guys are debating assumptions provided by intentionally vague statements... I don't see much of a future, in that, but more power to both of you.
If her intention was to explain to Alto why she was leaving, you don't think she would have added "Oh and btw, I am certain that the Vajra are coming here only for me"?

There is absolutely no rational reason for her not to mention this, especially in the context of her desperately wanting Alto to come with her on her journey or at least understand why she is leaving on a seeming suicide mission.

Of course, if the argument is "Ranka is so fucking stupid and self-absorbed that she doesn't even think about giving hard arguments to Alto why she needs to leave on this dangerous mission and can only come up with "I think I may be this and that and I need to find it out. Oh, and bring Ai-kun back to his people, teehee!", then, fine, you can have your theory that she knew it all along. But not the one without the other. Because either you accept that the stated reasons were her reasons or your wild hypothesis must also accept the clear inference what that means for what she actually said to Alto.

Next thing claimed is probably that it was super secret information which she only could have given Alto when they both were safely out of Frontiers orbit.
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Old 2010-10-27, 17:48   Link #2079
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By the same token, what in that statement is implying that she doesn't? I mean, honestly, you guys are debating assumptions provided by intentionally vague statements... I don't see much of a future, in that, but more power to both of you.
That pretty much sums it up, from my end.

Really, I just started thinking about the scene the other day, and how so much of the "Traitor Ranka Lee" talk stemmed from that, so I went back and watched it again and realized that she could be doing the responsible thing by leaving. Then the question became, "Well WE know that the Vajra are only interested in her...what if SHE knows it, too? Then her leaving carries a completely different meaning to it. And if she knows that 'Aimo' is a Vajra love song, that might give her the information she needs in order to control them."

I don't think it's that much of a stretch, really. It seemed (and still seems) like a plausible interpretation to me.

I'm not even saying I believe it myself...I'm just playing with ideas here.
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Old 2010-10-27, 17:51   Link #2080
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Mostly you are throwing shit at the wall to see if it sticks. Problem is, you need supporting evidence for that.

Hey, maybe Ranka was in reality a Vajra infiltrator, sent to wreck Frontier and outfitted with psychic powers to subdue those around her. That'd at least explain why everybody was making excuses for her fuck-ups the whole damn series. What, evidence? Pfffft, I'm just thinking, y'know.
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