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Old 2010-10-28, 16:13   Link #61
Hooves
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruuko View Post
haha but yes. the eye colour thing is still a big mystery!! :3
Probably contacts? From playing eroge for a whoever knows long?
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Old 2010-10-28, 16:58   Link #62
Himeji
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To better underline my argument about Kyousuke's father finding Kirino with an eroge, I've made some screenshots below, along with explanations.
I've used clickable thumbnails to save space.

Spoiler:



tl;dr: Final results of the thoughts of Kyousuke's father:
His father is now completely convinced that Kyousuke is not only 100% pure otaku, but even an otaku who has sexual fantasies about his imouto! Following the Japanese saying "If something stinks, keep it bottled up", he thus decides to completely ignore his otaku son from now on.

Kirino, on the other hand side, is totally free of any blame in his eyes now. She never had anything to do with anime or eroge in the first place (how would such a sweet, innocent girl have anything to with such naughty stuff, anyway?) and was only forced by Kyousuke to cover for him and hide his anime and eroge.

Consequently: If her father should however find out at a later time now that Kirino does talk about anime (be it on the phone or with friends), actually owns anime stuff for herself or visits anime-related events, his world and his image of pure, innocent Kirino would totally collapse, and he would go insanely made, much more even than he was now. Thus, Kirino still has to take great care that her father doesn't get to know anything about her anime hobby, or all hell would break loose.
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Old 2010-10-28, 17:51   Link #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Himeji View Post
To better underline my argument about Kyousuke's father finding Kirino with an eroge, I've made some screenshots below, along with explanations.
I've used clickable thumbnails to save space.

Spoiler:



tl;dr: Final results of the thoughts of Kyousuke's father:
His father is now completely convinced that Kyousuke is not only 100% pure otaku, but even an otaku who has sexual fantasies about his imouto! Following the Japanese saying "If something stinks, keep it bottled up", he thus decides to completely ignore his otaku son from now on.

Kirino, on the other hand side, is totally free of any blame in his eyes now. She never had anything to do with anime or eroge in the first place (how would such a sweet, innocent girl have anything to with such naughty stuff, anyway?) and was only forced by Kyousuke to cover for him and hide his anime and eroge.

Consequently: If her father should however find out at a later time now that Kirino does talk about anime (be it on the phone or with friends), actually owns anime stuff for herself or visits anime-related events, his world and his image of pure, innocent Kirino would totally collapse, and he would go insanely made, much more even than he was now. Thus, Kirino still has to take great care that her father doesn't get to know anything about her anime hobby, or all hell would break loose.
Oh my... Thats the best description of the father I have ever seen
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Old 2010-10-28, 20:47   Link #64
aeromono
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It is somewhat amazing we're still talking about this, but I'll humor you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Himeji
Her father lectures Kirino about the "evil" anime stuff that is only watched by otaku and has a bad influence. It came on TV, so it must be true! (Pretty simple-minded guy)
Spoiler:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Himeji
Kyousuke's efforts of trying to convince his father of accepting Kirino's anime hobby go exactly nowhere. His father does not move the tiniest bit from his opinion, but just brings up the "bad influence" again.
Spoiler:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Himeji
Kyousuke now totally loses it and grabs his dad's collar. His dad is shocked by this and would promise anything just so that Kyousuke lets him off again.
Spoiler:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Himeji
He pretends to accept Kirino's hobby
Spoiler:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Himeji
In realising that Kyousuke is the otaku, not Kirino, he realises something else, which makes him even more and more mad.
Spoiler:
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Old 2010-10-29, 08:49   Link #65
Shadow5YA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Himeji View Post
To better underline my argument about Kyousuke's father finding Kirino with an eroge, I've made some screenshots below, along with explanations.
I've used clickable thumbnails to save space.

Spoiler:



tl;dr: Final results of the thoughts of Kyousuke's father:
His father is now completely convinced that Kyousuke is not only 100% pure otaku, but even an otaku who has sexual fantasies about his imouto! Following the Japanese saying "If something stinks, keep it bottled up", he thus decides to completely ignore his otaku son from now on.

Kirino, on the other hand side, is totally free of any blame in his eyes now. She never had anything to do with anime or eroge in the first place (how would such a sweet, innocent girl have anything to with such naughty stuff, anyway?) and was only forced by Kyousuke to cover for him and hide his anime and eroge.

Consequently: If her father should however find out at a later time now that Kirino does talk about anime (be it on the phone or with friends), actually owns anime stuff for herself or visits anime-related events, his world and his image of pure, innocent Kirino would totally collapse, and he would go insanely made, much more even than he was now. Thus, Kirino still has to take great care that her father doesn't get to know anything about her anime hobby, or all hell would break loose.
By "at the very least," Kirino's father is not implying that he's lying. Remember that their father's character is shown to be rigid and adheres to his principles. Lying to get away from Kyousuke makes no sense when he could have done that earlier in the argument to deceive Kyousuke into believing him, so that he can be left alone to trash Kirino's room. All that line means is that he'll grudgingly accept Kirino's hobby but not the eroge, but if she gets rid of that hobby too, all the better.

As for Kirino, she still has to be careful not because there was no progess made in their argument against their father, but because her collection is nearly all eroge. Her dad allowing her to keep anything not eroge is pointless when that makes up nearly her entire collection.

Another problem is that you write off Kyousuke's act of taking all the blame as him "seeing how anything he did had pretty much no effort on his father, he uses his "last resort" to save his imouto and "confesses" that it's all his stuff, and that Kirino was only keeping it for him."

As I have quoted before, Kyousuke agrees with his father that Kirino keeping eroge is not something that can be justified. He does not become the scapegoat because his argument had no effect on his father. If that was the reason, then why did Kyousuke all of a sudden agree with his father on throwing out the eroge?

Even after claiming ownership of that single eroge disk, Kyousuke brings up his own porn collection that his mother knows about. His porn collection is a tool to "justify" another adults-only item, the eroge in his father's hand. It does not make sense that Kyousuke would use his collection to justify anime as a whole when non-pornographic anime has nothing to do with a sexually explicit porn magazine collection. Therefore, Kyousuke claimed that only the eroge belonged to him, because he can justify that eroge, an adults-only game, with his own adult material recognized by his mother.

tl;dr - point still stands, Kyou only claimed ownership of the eroge because he could lump it with his own porn collection.
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Old 2010-10-29, 14:03   Link #66
Himeji
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aeromono View Post
It is somewhat amazing we're still talking about this, but I'll humor you.
Oh my, what a great favour you're doing me in "humouring" me
Thank you very much for your grace, your excellence.

Quote:
Originally Posted by aeromono View Post
Having erotic fantasies is natural and not evil, but it is never good per se.
So you're saying that while *having* erotic fantasies is not evil, erotic fantasies themselves *are* evil
That somehow reminds me of those tv preachers of questionable mental constitution in the US, who preach against porn and such
"We all know that everyone has erotic fantasies, this is sadly the course of nature. However, we must always keep in mind that those erotic fantasies are temptations sent to us by the devil! They are never good per se, and thus we always must fight them whenever and wherever we can!"

Not only are erotic fantasies a fundamentally *good* thing, but they're also absolutely *neccessary* for a healthy development! People who grow up within puritan families or other hardcore christian families, where erotic fantasies (and anything sexual in general) are strongly repressed, grow up having a very disturbed relationship to sexuality in general and much more often turn into fondlers and rapists than others, because they have no valve, no release for their sexual feelings.

Quote:
Originally Posted by aeromono View Post
Actually, if you watch it again, Kyousuke was arguing about something completely irrelevant (a straw man, if you like that word). The father said playing those kinds of games was a worthless hobby and that they couldn't have any good influence.
... And the series of irrelevant arguments continues.
No, Kyousuke's arguments weren't irrelevant at all. It's just that his father already had an opinion set in stone about anime being worthless, which was only being reinforced by the media. Being the stubborn type, he completely refuses anything that Kyousuke says because he doesn't have the slightest intention of changing his opinion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by aeromono View Post
he definitely did NOT say having something she could get so absorbed in was bad.
You seem to have a totally different definition of "bad", but in my book, "worthless" and "bad" is the same - if anything, "worthless" is even worse than "bad". The father definitely did call anime a *worthless* hobby, perhaps you should rewatch it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by aeromono View Post
This is probably not too obvious to people have internalized most of their favorite works, but when someone criticizes those works, they're not criticizing you.
First, the father is not criticising anime. Calling something "worthless" has nothing to do with criticising.
Second, he *is* criticising Kirino, because he thinks that Kirino has a worthless hobby in these anime.

Quote:
Originally Posted by aeromono View Post
So Kyousuke was making an emotional plea, not a rational argument
I don't see any irrational about asking his father to accept Kirino's hobby. Just because the father thinks that having such a "worthless" hobby is irrational doesn't make asking to accept it irrational.

Quote:
Originally Posted by aeromono View Post
and the father succinctly said: "I said nothing about her friends."
The father said that he said nothing about her friends because he didn't understand what this photo of Kirino with friends had to do with the ongoing discussion about anime. He didn't understand that Kirino had talked about anime with them, and that she had only made those friends because of her anime hobby.

Quote:
Originally Posted by aeromono View Post
Kirino having perfect grades and awards somehow means the father is wrong about those games?
We already know that the father is wrong, and Kirino's good grades only further confirm it - they confirm that over those games, Kirino does not neglect her school or anything, so they don't have any bad influence on her, as her father claims.
As Kyousuke knows that his father is pretty simple-minded, he knows his father would say that having this "worthless" hobby would make her neglect other things, so he brings up Kirino's good grades to prevent him from bringing that argument.

Quote:
Originally Posted by aeromono View Post
Does this also mean if she had less than perfect grades the father would be justified in his condemnation of her hobby?
No, of course not. It's just an argument that simple-minded people like Kyousuke's father would bring up.

Quote:
Originally Posted by aeromono View Post
If the end results are good does it mean your method was? You can never know, perhaps your method was inefficient and the results could have been much more stellar.
So you're now saying that if Kirino didn't have anime and eroge as a hobby, her results in school and all would be much more stellar. First you loudly claim how bad that argument is, then you use it yourself

Quote:
Originally Posted by aeromono View Post
I can only hope you are half-joking.
Certainly no joking here. Are you joking with your stuff? It would really be better with some of it...

Quote:
Originally Posted by aeromono View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Himeji
Kyousuke now totally loses it and grabs his dad's collar. His dad is shocked by this and would promise anything just so that Kyousuke lets him off again.
It is never right to threaten anyone with violence (unless you believe might makes right, which is unfortunately all too common), let alone your own father . But the father would later return the debt in full (and obviously, with great interest) by punching him. A hopeless pair.
Of course it is not right to threaten anyone with violence. I never said that it would be right or condoned it in any way, so don't put stuff in my mouth I never said!

Quote:
Originally Posted by aeromono View Post
He did not pretend. The father knew he had hurt his daughter's feelings by calling her hobby worthless, and he took back those words.
He *did* pretend, because he felt threatened by Kyousuke's sudden outbreak and wanted him to unhand him.
He *might* know that he hurt Kirino's feelings... but more than likely, he didn't. He certainly isn't the type to notice such things, and Kirino running out crying didn't ring a bell with him, as he's still as unrelenting when Kyousuke comes to talk with him.
He didn't take back those words either - but actually, it doesn't matter if he took them back or not, as he's later convinced that it's Kyousuke's hobby only (which fits his fathers preconceived image of Kyousuke being a good-for-nothing), and that Kirino was only forced to cover for Kyousuke and actually has nothing to do with it (which again fits the father's image of pure, innocent Kirino who would never have do such a thing).

Quote:
Originally Posted by aeromono View Post
And the law is on his side, he's fully justified to prevent his daughter from playing them as a law-abiding citizen and luckily doesn't have to worry about all the drama.
What has this Robocop-speech about "law-abiding citizens" got to do with anything? This is neither brought up by the father nor by Kyousuke.

Quote:
Originally Posted by aeromono View Post
The only thing I got out of the episode is that the father just snapped and was fed up with his kids' antics and decided to give up altogether. You arguing that Kirino is now absolved of all guilt in his father's eyes is quite debatable
The father was only mad because his preconceived image of pure, innocent Kirino was about to shatter, as that "worthless" anime hobby didn't fit in there at all.
At the end however, the innocent image of Kirino was restored again, as Kyousuke "confessed" that it's him who has the "worthless" anime hobby, and even exaggerates to appear like a real otaku. This again fits the preconceived image the father has of Kyousuke as a good-for-nothing, so he instantly believes him there.

Quote:
Originally Posted by aeromono View Post
as Kyousuke did show the father the image of her with her otaku friends (perhaps in hindsight it was a big mistake).
It's just that Kyousuke didn't explain it properly and didn't say that the other girls on the picture are also otaku, so his father didn't understood that. You can see that he didn't recognose her friends on the picture as otaku by his comment "I said nothing about her friends."
When seeing the image, his father just thought, "Now he's showing me some random image of Kirino with some friends. What does this have to do with anything?"

Quote:
Originally Posted by aeromono View Post
It is much more likely that he now thinks both his children have something to do with that game, perhaps one of them was covering for the other, but he was too frustrated to look further into the matter. He might even think both of them are otaku, for all we know.
Ok, I won't totally exclude the possibility that he now thinks that both, Kirino and Kyousuke, are otaku.
However, I'd say that's quite unlikely. His father is very hung-up on his image of pure, innocent Kirino, that's why he got so very, very mad about seeing Kirino having a hobby which he regards as "worthless" - it doesn't fit the image he has of her.
When Kyousuke "confesses" how he actually is the one who is the otaku, his father more than gladly accepts this. He simply *wants* to believe that Kirino was only forced to cover up for Kyousuke and doesn't have anything to do with it herself, because only that way he can restore the pure, innocent image of Kirino he's so hung-up on.

This is actually quite common. Parents often like to see their kids, especially girls, for as long as pure and innocent as possible, and have problems seeing them grow up and thus stopping to be pure and innocent kids.
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Old 2010-10-29, 14:25   Link #67
Guardian Enzo
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I hesitate to wade back into this topic, but there are two things I see as apparent in that scene that I think are relevant. One, it's ludicrous to suggest Kyousuke's father felt threatened by him in any way. He outweighs his son by probably 50 pounds and he's clearly a bully, as he deomonstrated at the end of the scene. He might have been surprised and annoyed, but threatened? No way. Second, while it's not as obvious, I think the father knew that Kyousuke's "ownership" of the eroge was a lie. He simply chose to pretend it wasn't because it was easier for him to make believe Kirino wasn't the sort of girl to play eroge than to accept it openly. That would shatter his authority in the family, becuase it would be an admission of a failure on his part as a parent. I happen to think his actions prove he is a failure as a parent, but I don't think he sees it that way.
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Old 2010-10-29, 14:27   Link #68
Shadow5YA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Himeji View Post
The father was only mad because his preconceived image of pure, innocent Kirino was about to shatter, as that "worthless" anime hobby didn't fit in there at all.
At the end however, the innocent image of Kirino was restored again, as Kyousuke "confessed" that it's him who has the "worthless" anime hobby, and even exaggerates to appear like a real otaku. This again fits the preconceived image the father has of Kyousuke as a good-for-nothing, so he instantly believes him there.



It's just that Kyousuke didn't explain it properly and didn't say that the other girls on the picture are also otaku, so his father didn't understood that. You can see that he didn't recognose her friends on the picture as otaku by his comment "I said nothing about her friends."
When seeing the image, his father just thought, "Now he's showing me some random image of Kirino with some friends. What does this have to do with anything?"



Ok, I won't totally exclude the possibility that he now thinks that both, Kirino and Kyousuke, are otaku.
However, I'd say that's quite unlikely. His father is very hung-up on his image of pure, innocent Kirino, that's why he got so very, very mad about seeing Kirino having a hobby which he regards as "worthless" - it doesn't fit the image he has of her.
When Kyousuke "confesses" how he actually is the one who is the otaku, his father more than gladly accepts this. He simply *wants* to believe that Kirino was only forced to cover up for Kyousuke and doesn't have anything to do with it herself, because only that way he can restore the pure, innocent image of Kirino he's so hung-up on.

This is actually quite common. Parents often like to see their kids, especially girls, for as long as pure and innocent as possible, and have problems seeing them grow up and thus stopping to be pure and innocent kids.
Your assumption of Kirino's father's beliefs is hardly justified. Where is your proof that he believes Kirino is "pure"? He lets his daughter model professionally. By letting her do that, he's acknoledging that he will let her showcase her body in various outfits that may not be sexually explicit, but are definitely not conservative either.

Kirino's father clearly didn't approve of anime and otaku because of what he read and heard on the media. This was stated. He was going to take away all of Kirino's collection because he believed her hobby was detrimental towards her growth. Kyousuke made it his argument that having a hobby is what made Kirino who she is, and that her hobby is harmless. Her father brings up the R-18 label quite clearly. Kyousuke agrees with him on that aspect, and that's what he accepts as his fault. All of this is clearly shown in the anime, the manga, and the novel. The father's belief in Kirino's "purity" is nothing more than an assumption.

You also claimed that Kyousuke didn't make it clear that Saori and Kuroneko were Kirino's otaku friends. That is incorrect as well, because he used the picture as an example of Kirino's hobby. He said how she has found friends she could discuss her hobby with.

Finally, if you're so insistent that Kyousuke assumed ownership of Kirino's entire hobby, eroge or not, then you are also implying the father still believes that Kirino has nothing to do with anime. As the later light novel volumes prove, the father is well aware of Kirino's hobby. However, I didn't want to use the novels as evidence since you seem intent on discussing assumptions made only in the anime.
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Old 2010-10-29, 14:34   Link #69
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^Holly hell, what are those posts I don't even-
I'd love to see a crossover scene with Kirino and Keima bashing and discussing about imouto charas and also seeing them play eroges on their PSPs next to each other.
Instead of OreImou+Index it should have been OreImou+TWGOK and Index+Ika.
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Old 2010-10-29, 15:45   Link #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vanish View Post
^Holly hell, what are those posts I don't even-
Instead of OreImou+Index it should have been OreImou+TWGOK and Index+Ika.
You probably dont want to know Vanish very descriptive info about the conversation between Kyousuke and his father about Kirino's case.

Index with Ika... I find problems involving this but OreImou+TWGOK seems ok.
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Old 2010-10-29, 20:18   Link #71
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Well, my reply was long, so perhaps expecting others to actually ponder (and not skim) what I wrote was too much ? Depending on ... your ability to comprehend English - or let's just assume I suck at English - comprehend what I say, this might prove to be a practice in futility. I'll try to not drop any point you make (you may remind me), and I hope you'll do the same when replying, even if all you can say is a smiley (it's better to know the other person did read).


Quote:
Originally Posted by Himeji
So you're saying that while *having* erotic fantasies is not evil, erotic fantasies themselves *are* evil
I find it strange that you're accusing me of saying something I did not say (and I'm in fact wondering why anyone could have taken it like that at all). It is something natural just as you say and everyone has those fantasies, it's just not in the realm of good vs evil, righteous vs sinful like some people would believe. It's just natural and to be expected, to suddenly assign it a value on the scales of good and evil is terribly judgemental. Are we gonna classify farts as good or evil too ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Himeji
First, the father is not criticising anime. Calling something "worthless" has nothing to do with criticising.
Second, he *is* criticising Kirino, because he thinks that Kirino has a worthless hobby in these anime.
I am speechless. OK, so let's assume I don't know what 'criticise' mean and calling something worthless doesn't mean you're trying to criticise it (you're just mocking it, maybe?). The point is still the same, calling anime bad/worthless (insert your own adjective) is not the same as calling Kirino and her friends bad/worthless (insert your own adjective). Kyousuke did not have to defend her friends, as the father wasn't calling them bad/worthless (insert your own adjective).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Himeji
It's just that his father already had an opinion set in stone about anime being worthless, which was only being reinforced by the media.
To clarify, he was specifically referring to that little incest game with child porn (he was literally pointing his finger at it), not anime in general. In Japan, some anime/manga are considered socially acceptable and culturally relevant. The media actively promotes those anime/movies. What media in Japan calls Ghibli movies worthless and for otaku? But it is thought that only the fat basement-dwelling mommy-loving <insert expletive> otaku watch those anime series about hypersexual little girls and play eroges about having sex with their little sister, and that's exactly what Kirino is guilty of possessing here.

I can't deny the possibility that this Japan is from another universe and Ghibli movies/Satoshi Kon/etc don't exist and the media actively condemns all anime and Japan probably won World War 2 too, but for my sanity's sake, I assume this is the country we know today. The father condemns all those incest games with child porn. To say he condemns all anime, is just a presumption and hasty generalization on your part, something ep 3 did not tell us about.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Himeji
No, Kyousuke's arguments weren't irrelevant at all.
Being the stubborn type, he completely refuses anything that Kyousuke says because he doesn't have the slightest intention of changing his opinion.
He wasn't tackling the father's main point, that those incest games are bad, but instead talked about something else instead.

And does that explain why he decided to take back his words ? Are we just gonna attribute it to cowardice on his part ? (uhm yeah he was scared of being beaten to death by his own son, I can believe that, I think)



Quote:
Originally Posted by Himeji
You seem to have a totally different definition of "bad", but in my book, "worthless" and "bad" is the same - if anything, "worthless" is even worse than "bad". The father definitely did call anime a *worthless* hobby, perhaps you should rewatch it.
Firstly, I assume that you quoted the correct part of my reply. If so, you missed the point and instead tried to focus on whether I should have used the word 'worthless' or 'bad'.
This is what he said while pointing at the incest game : the people who do these things at this age are called otaku, this is a worthless hobby. Yeah, and now I'll have to repeat this because someone missed it. He did not say having something she could get so absorbed in was bad. She could probably be interested in science and try to pursue a scientific career, and no one can say that is bad (or worthless, insert your own word here). Having something you could get so absorbed in is not inherently bad. So the father said nothing about it. Condemning her hobby (playing incest games and whatnot) is not the same as saying she shouldn't have something she could get absorbed in (she should get absorbed in studying, for example).


Quote:
Originally Posted by Himeji
I don't see any irrational about asking his father to accept Kirino's hobby. Just because the father thinks that having such a "worthless" hobby is irrational doesn't make asking to accept it irrational.
The underlined part is not the reason. The reason is that Kyousuke did not tackle the father's main point, that the incest games are bad/worthless (insert your own adjective). All he did was focusing on her friends and Kirino herself, and not those incest games. It is a plea because he was making a request, not trying to prove the father's main point is wrong. It is emotional because he wanted the father to sympathize and see her daughter is doing well with her otaku friends (oh my she's looking good and all I don't see anything to worry about here), while ignoring the main point about the games themselves.

Quote:
We already know that the father is wrong ... It's just an argument that simple-minded people like Kyousuke's father would bring up.
Yeah he was proving Kirino was sensible and mature enough to play those games. This is a convincing point, and I'd go to great lengths to prove it, like I said.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Himeji
So you're now saying that if Kirino didn't have anime and eroge as a hobby, her results in school and all would be much more stellar. First you loudly claim how bad that argument is, then you use it yourself
The answer is : you can never know. I said that in the very part you quoted. And now I say it again. Don't accuse me of saying something I did not say, pretty please. I don't even understand how anyone could have read 'You can never know' as 'I am perfectly confident that', and then accused me of being hypocritical. If you intend to make a reply, do tell me how you misunderstood.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Himeji
The father said that he said nothing about her friends because he didn't understand what this photo of Kirino with friends had to do with the ongoing discussion about anime.
So , if I understand this correctly, after going to GREAT lengths to tell the father about Kirino's friends, you know, the weird friends who could get excited about the most stupid things, the otaku ones, yeah those ones, and saying that the pic was sent by Kirino's friends and asking whether the father needed to worry after seeing it, the father might somehow think these friends are the 'normal' ones who have nothing to do with her hobby ? I know you assume the father has the attention span of a goldfish but let's at least assume he can understand what Kyousuke says , eh ?

He knew that was the pic of her with her otaku friends. Period.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Himeji
Of course it is not right to threaten anyone with violence. I never said that it would be right or condoned it in any way, so don't put stuff in my mouth I never said!
I can sympathize with you here. The order of my sentences was wrong and misleading, I thought you jokingly said that the father was scared and 'would promise anything just so that Kyousuke lets him off again' (ridiculous, seeing that he could knock out Kyousuke with one hit). I did not imply you condoned the violent acts, but was simply commenting on how hopeless they both are (like father like son). So perhaps, do not accuse me of accusing you of saying something you didn't say when I did not imply that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Himeji
He *did* pretend, because he felt threatened by Kyousuke's sudden outbreak and wanted him to unhand him.
He *might* know that he hurt Kirino's feelings... but more than likely, he didn't. He certainly isn't the type to notice such things, and Kirino running out crying didn't ring a bell with him, as he's still as unrelenting when Kyousuke comes to talk with him.
In a nutshell, up to this point, you assume he's cowardly (scared of his own son who he can knock out with ease), simple-minded, constantly inattentive, unable to understand the pic was sent by her otaku friends, probably oblivious to the fact that his daughter's feelings were hurt (I agree it is not very obvious, she only runs away!). Anything else ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Himeji
What has this Robocop-speech about "law-abiding citizens" got to do with anything? This is neither brought up by the father nor by Kyousuke.
Sorry, but ... you do understand what R18 means right? Yes the father brought that up and Kyousuke had expected that too. It means Kirino is not allowed to play those games. Depending on where you live, selling these games to Kirino could mean up to 6 months imprisonment and a hefty fine.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Himeji
At the end however, the innocent image of Kirino was restored again.
Kyousuke didn't explain it properly and didn't say that the other girls on the picture are also otaku, so his father didn't understood that.
He simply *wants* to believe that Kirino was only forced to cover up for Kyousuke
See above. Decide for yourself whether he has the attention span of a goldfish and believes Kyousuke was referring to 2 different groups of 'friends' (the ones he tried to defend, and the normal ones who just happened to be in the picture that Kyousuke used to convince his dad to let her keep her hobby, did that make sense ?)

People can voluntarily turn a blind eye to a lot of things. But after hearing Kyousuke talk a great deal about her new friends who shared the same hobby, being shown that pic, and asked whether he should have to worry, why do you assume the father couldn't understand those are the same friends Kyousuke had talked about ?

Actually, ask anyone whether the father knew that was the pic of Kirino with her new otaku friends, or he just thought they were random friends thrown into the discussion for no apparent purpose at all.
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Old 2010-10-29, 20:58   Link #72
Himeji
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Originally Posted by Shadow5YA View Post
As the later light novel volumes prove, ...
Your argument is invalid.
We're talking about the anime here, not about the novel or the manga.

@aeromono
Reply coming up soon.
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Old 2010-10-29, 21:41   Link #73
Bonta Kun
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Originally Posted by Himeji View Post
Your argument is invalid.
We're talking about the anime here, not about the novel or the manga.

@aeromono
Reply coming up soon.
But the anime is a adaptation of the novel so in truth we should be taking it from the novel.
Sure we can talk about the anime but can't dimiss the source material.
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Old 2010-10-29, 21:50   Link #74
Ruuko
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Originally Posted by Hooves View Post
Probably contacts? From playing eroge for a whoever knows long?
lol contacts, maybe.. since she is the fashion type *looks around the room*


arghh i want the next episode to come out!! come out alreadyyy =w=; *begs kami*
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Old 2010-10-30, 11:52   Link #75
Himeji
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aeromono View Post
even if all you can say is a smiley (it's better to know the other person did read).
I'm feeling generous today, so I'll give you even three smileys:

Quote:
Originally Posted by aeromono View Post
I find it strange that you're accusing me of saying something I did not say (and I'm in fact wondering why anyone could have taken it like that at all). It is something natural just as you say and everyone has those fantasies, it's just not in the realm of good vs evil, righteous vs sinful like some people would believe. It's just natural and to be expected, to suddenly assign it a value on the scales of good and evil is terribly judgemental.
The point is that you *did* say it: you said that erotic fantasies are "never good". (sic!)
Now, after my reply, you suddenly changed your opinion and are saying that you shouldn't judge erotic fantasies as good or evil, even though you just did that in your previous reply.
Also, you didn't give a good reason why you shouldn't judge them as good or bad. Just "everyone has them", while true, isn't a good point why you shouldn't classify them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by aeromono View Post
Are we gonna classify farts as good or evil too ?
Now that's a curious little idea you got there XD
Now if you would please explain to me what erotic fantasies have to do with farts?
Unless, of course, you have erotic fantasies about farts, then you're excused

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Originally Posted by aeromono View Post
OK, so let's assume I don't know what 'criticise' mean
Yes, let's do that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by aeromono View Post
and calling something worthless doesn't mean you're trying to criticise it (you're just mocking it, maybe?).
No. It seems our assumption is right. Let's look up "criticise" in a dictionary:
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/criticize
(Just ignore the ugly Yankee spelling there.)

1: to consider the merits and demerits of and judge accordingly : evaluate
2: to find fault with : point out the faults of

Further down:
Criticise implies finding fault especially with methods or policies or intentions.

Calling something "worthless" has neither anything to do with "considering the merits and demerits", nor with "pointing out the faults" or "finding faults with methods". In the opposite, it's an unmethodical, prejudice-based, intentionally derogatory statement of opinion which indicates that you won't permit any discussion about this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by aeromono View Post
The point is still the same, calling anime bad/worthless (insert your own adjective) is not the same as calling Kirino and her friends bad/worthless (insert your own adjective). Kyousuke did not have to defend her friends, as the father wasn't calling them bad/worthless (insert your own adjective).
The only reason his father didn't call them worthless is because he didn't register them as otaku, or just anime fans in general. That is because he didn't want to register them as such, because that would mean he would have to register Kirino as an anime fan - which would destroy the image of pure, innocent Kirino he's so hung-up on.
You can see that the father has such an image of Kirino when you take a look at the photo album of Kirino which he meticulously led. Of course "daddy's little girl" can't possibly have such a hobby which he considers worthless, that's why he got so really,really mad.
Likewise, she can't possibly befriend others who have such a "worthless" hobby.

The father doesn't have any problems to call persons "worthless", not just hobbies. When Kyousuke convinced him that he is an otaku and therefore has a "worthless" hobby, he is by consequence worthless as well, and the father calls him a worthless son:



Quote:
Originally Posted by aeromono View Post
To clarify, he was specifically referring to that little incest game with child porn (he was literally pointing his finger at it), not anime in general.
The father *does* refer to anime in general, because he doesn't make any distinction there. Anime, eroge, whatever - it's all the same for him.
That again is for the reason he doesn't know anything at all about anime. To make distinctions between various kinds out anime, and to differ it from eroge, he would have to know more about it and occupy with somewhat with it. Thiswon't happen before hell freezes over however, because he regards anime as a whole (including eroge) as "worthless" and thus avoids it as much as he can.

Quote:
Originally Posted by aeromono View Post
In Japan, some anime/manga are considered socially acceptable and culturally relevant. ... <snip>
This doesn't really belong here, so I'll cut this short.
In Japan, anime/manga as a whole are considered socially acceptable. There are manga and anime for all age groups. It's not that uncommon to find a salary man reading manga. The manga publishing industry is by far the biggest publishing industry in Japan, much bigger than any other publishing industry. While there are still some conservative media who are trying to denounce anime and manga in general (which is probably just the media Kyousuke's father follows), it's just a small minority.

This is very different from the west, where comics/cartoons are generally regarded as "just for kids", and manga/anime are lumped together with them even though they're quite another thing, just because of ignorance.

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Originally Posted by aeromono View Post
And does that explain why he decided to take back his words ? Are we just gonna attribute it to cowardice on his part ? (uhm yeah he was scared of being beaten to death by his own son, I can believe that, I think)
You simply don't understand the father's mindset. He's a very old fashioned father, and as such he's a strict adherent to the old Confucian value of filial piety, which places the father unquestioningly above the son, with the son having to follow the father's every whim.
When Kyousuke grabs his father's collar and threathens him, this is so much in gross violation of the father's values that his father is utterly and deeply shocked by his son daring to do such a thing. Out of this massive shock, his first action is to pretend to give in (he still doesn't have any intention to change his opinion), just so that Kyousuke will unhand him. Who knows what he will do next otherwise?

Quote:
Originally Posted by aeromono View Post
This is what he said while pointing at the incest game : the people who do these things at this age are called otaku, this is a worthless hobby. Yeah, and now I'll have to repeat this because someone missed it. He did not say having something she could get so absorbed in was bad. She could probably be interested in science and try to pursue a scientific career, and no one can say that is bad (or worthless, insert your own word here). Having something you could get so absorbed in is not inherently bad. So the father said nothing about it. Condemning her hobby (playing incest games and whatnot) is not the same as saying she shouldn't have something she could get absorbed in (she should get absorbed in studying, for example).
Ah, I see what you're trying to say: that the father said that she should have something to get absorbed in, but that it shouldn't be something he regards as "worthless". I still don't see though where you're deducing that the father said she should have something to get absorbed in.

Quote:
Originally Posted by aeromono View Post
It is emotional because he wanted the father to sympathize and see her daughter is doing well with her otaku friends (oh my she's looking good and all I don't see anything to worry about here), while ignoring the main point about the games themselves.
That's the point, actually. He couldn't convince his father not because his arguments were bad (e.g. pointing out how Kirino is good at school was a good and valid argument), but because he tried to appeal to the father's sympathies. Trying to get the father to sympathise was obviously a bad idea. It couldn't work, because the father has no sympathies whatsoever for Kyousuke, and no sympathies whatsoever for otaku (or anime fans in general) either, so there's nothing to appeal to.

Quote:
Originally Posted by aeromono View Post
Yeah he was proving Kirino was sensible and mature enough to play those games. This is a convincing point, and I'd go to great lengths to prove it, like I said.
It's convincing indeed. As I just said, it's not his arguments that were bad, it's the way he tried to appeal to his father that failed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by aeromono View Post
The answer is : you can never know. I said that in the very part you quoted. And now I say it again. Don't accuse me of saying something I did not say, pretty please. I don't even understand how anyone could have read 'You can never know' as 'I am perfectly confident that', and then accused me of being hypocritical. If you intend to make a reply, do tell me how you misunderstood.
It doesn't really matter if you're saying "you can never know" or "I'm sure it's that way". You can't bring up an argument first and say what a crappy argument it is (quote: "Does this also mean if she had less than perfect grades the father would be justified in his condemnation of her hobby?") but finally say "Perhaps this argument is valid, you never know." That *is* hypocritical, because you're contradicting yourself with that.
*Either* you say that assuming a connection between her anime hobby and her grades in school is ludicrous, as you said first (and which I would fully agree with).
*Or* you say "You never know, the could very well be a connection between her hobby and her grades.", as you put it later.
You can't say both at the same time, that's just hypocritical. So, which one of the two shall it be? Is it ludicrous, or is it possibly true?

Quote:
Originally Posted by aeromono View Post
So , if I understand this correctly, after going to GREAT lengths to tell the father about Kirino's friends, you know, the weird friends who could get excited about the most stupid things, the otaku ones, yeah those ones, and saying that the pic was sent by Kirino's friends and asking whether the father needed to worry after seeing it, the father might somehow think these friends are the 'normal' ones who have nothing to do with her hobby ? I know you assume the father has the attention span of a goldfish but let's at least assume he can understand what Kyousuke says , eh ?
He knew that was the pic of her with her otaku friends. Period.
Normally one should assume that he would get it - but that's not the case here, because he refuses to see the pic as what it actually is.
As I said above already, Kirino is still "daddy's little girl", she's still pure and innocent for her father. This becomes very evident from the photo album of Kirino, which is so meticulously kept by the father.
If he would accept the pic as what it actually is, it would destroy his image of her, and he simply can't accept that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by aeromono View Post
I can sympathize with you here. The order of my sentences was wrong and misleading, I thought you jokingly said that the father was scared and 'would promise anything just so that Kyousuke lets him off again' (ridiculous, seeing that he could knock out Kyousuke with one hit). I did not imply you condoned the violent acts, but was simply commenting on how hopeless they both are (like father like son). So perhaps, do not accuse me of accusing you of saying something you didn't say when I did not imply that.
Ok.

Quote:
Originally Posted by aeromono View Post
In a nutshell, up to this point, you assume he's cowardly (scared of his own son who he can knock out with ease), simple-minded, constantly inattentive, unable to understand the pic was sent by her otaku friends, probably oblivious to the fact that his daughter's feelings were hurt (I agree it is not very obvious, she only runs away!). Anything else ?
Wrong about the "cowardly". He's simply seriously shocked by his son grabbing his collar, which is in gross violation of his values. See above, where I wrote about it already.
"Inattentive": it might be true that he doesn't really care for what Kyousuke has to say, since he only values Kyousuke very lowly, and thus doesn't pay proper attention to him - but that's not the point here.
The rest is correct.

Quote:
Originally Posted by aeromono View Post
Sorry, but ... you do understand what R18 means right? Yes the father brought that up and Kyousuke had expected that too. It means Kirino is not allowed to play those games. Depending on where you live, selling these games to Kirino could mean up to 6 months imprisonment and a hefty fine.
The "depending on where you live" is an important point here. This is Japan and not the US we're talking about here, so I don't see why you're bringing up some US law for this here.
It's especially curious, as the US mindset, which the US laws are based upon, is so immensely different from the Japanese mindset. In the US, any form of violence is perfectly acceptable, and no one will ever say a thing, even with blood and gore and whatnot. As soon as there's just the tiniest bit of naked skin shown though, there's a huge clamour about it. "Oh noes, won't anyone think of the poor children! Seeing naked skin will burn their eyes out!"

Adult rating in Japan is quite different from the US. This post is already way too long anyway, so I won't go into detail here. Just read these articles for more info about it:
http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/R18ゲーム
http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/18禁

Quote:
Originally Posted by aeromono View Post
See above. Decide for yourself whether he has the attention span of a goldfish and believes Kyousuke was referring to 2 different groups of 'friends' (the ones he tried to defend, and the normal ones who just happened to be in the picture that Kyousuke used to convince his dad to let her keep her hobby, did that make sense ?)
People can voluntarily turn a blind eye to a lot of things. But after hearing Kyousuke talk a great deal about her new friends who shared the same hobby, being shown that pic, and asked whether he should have to worry, why do you assume the father couldn't understand those are the same friends Kyousuke had talked about ?
"Voluntarily turning a blind eye" is exactly what the father is doing here. Accepting the pic as what it is, Kirino with her otaku friends, would destroy his image of "daddy's little girl", which he can't accept - as I mentioned above already.
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Old 2010-10-30, 13:43   Link #76
Shadow5YA
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Originally Posted by Himeji View Post
You simply don't understand the father's mindset. He's a very old fashioned father, and as such he's a strict adherent to the old Confucian value of filial piety, which places the father unquestioningly above the son, with the son having to follow the father's every whim.
When Kyousuke grabs his father's collar and threathens him, this is so much in gross violation of the father's values that his father is utterly and deeply shocked by his son daring to do such a thing. Out of this massive shock, his first action is to pretend to give in (he still doesn't have any intention to change his opinion), just so that Kyousuke will unhand him. Who knows what he will do next otherwise?
I understand that filial piety is a common mindset, not the father's mindset. The father outright stated that he was wrong about anime being a useless hobby and would take back his words. There is nothing in his character that suggests he would blatantly lie to his son or anyone in his family. If there was, he could easily have thrown out Kirino's collection without even confronting either of the children about it.

There is also nothing to suggest that their father is so "shocked" that he could only "pretend" to listen to Kyousuke's argument. He does not have an obligation to listen to Kyousuke, and he knows that. He punched his own son, believing he could. If he wanted to punch Kyousuke for threating his own father, then he would have done so. Likewise, if the father did not want to listen or believe Kyousuke's argument, then he could have refused to talk face to face -- so why didn't the father refuse? Because he chose not to refuse.

The father chose to listen to Kyousuke's argument, knowing that he is not forced or obligated to. Knowing that the father is and always has been in control, there is nothing to suggest that he was "shocked" to see Kyousuke grab his collar. His facial expression did not show it, and there was no change in his tone until after Kyousuke claimed ownship of the eroge. As such, there is no evidence to prove that the father would blatantly tell a lie. We have to take what he said at face value.
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Old 2010-10-30, 14:25   Link #77
aeromono
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Himeji
The point is that you *did* say it: you said that erotic fantasies are "never good". (sic!)
I never changed my opinion or took back any words on that. Erotic fantasies are never good, and neither are they evil. That's what I said, isn't it? Only you committed the black or white fallacy ("ok he said it was never good, but it's either good or evil right?") and assumed I had somehow contradicted myself. They are neither good nor evil. Period.

Do you honestly not know why I brought up farts ? Because they, like erotic fantasies, are natural and something we're all too familiar with, yet it's still embarrassing to admit you have them and they're thought to be inapproriate in most situations.

You're just grasping at straws here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Himeji
In the opposite, it's an unmethodical, prejudice-based, intentionally derogatory statement of opinion which indicates that you won't permit any discussion about this.
I hesitate to turn this into a bickering semantic argument, but the father considered the hobby inappropriate for her age and a social stigma, and that she would be led astray. Demerits ? Checked. Evaluate ? Checked. For me that's enough to use the word 'criticise'. You think it was prejudice-based, intentionally derogatory... but such critics are all too common nowadays. And yet they still call it 'criticism', do they not? There's such a thing as unfair/unfounded criticism.
Most semantic arguments I've seen fail to offer anything cogent at all, and this seems to be one of them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Himeji
The only reason his father didn't call them worthless is because he didn't register them as otaku, or just anime fans in general.
So, in a nutshell, he didn't call them worthless or say anything about them. Let's move on.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Himeji
The father *does* refer to anime in general, because he doesn't make any distinction there. Anime, eroge, whatever - it's all the same for him.
He was pointing his finger at the game.
There is a certain amount of irony here. You keep assuming he was condemning all anime and made no effort to understand there's actually the distinction between that game and, say, various kinds of 'socially acceptable' anime. Did ep 3 tell us anything about that ? No, it's just some theory you cooked up, and all you're doing is repeating it with enthusiasm, all he did was point at the incest game and condemn it/caled it worthless/(insert adjective)... It is you who made a hasty generalization about him (that he was referring to all anime), not him making a hasty generalization about all anime.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Himeji
which is probably just the media Kyousuke's father follows
You might want to keep the conspiracy theory going.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Himeji
When Kyousuke grabs his father's collar and threathens him, this is so much in gross violation of the father's values that his father is utterly and deeply shocked by his son daring to do such a thing. Out of this massive shock, his first action is to pretend to give in (he still doesn't have any intention to change his opinion), just so that Kyousuke will unhand him. Who knows what he will do next otherwise?
Perfect psychological analysis there. I'm pretty sure the father couldn't have just... you know, knocked the son out.
And that's what happens in real life if you try it on a very old-fashioned father in Asia. They are going to be shocked alright, if it's the first time you've ever done that. Then they are going to beat you (by instinct), ground you... but one thing is for sure: they're not going to agree to your request after that (unless you genuflect and make a solemn vow or something). Good luck with your new theory (which I've never heard of), perhaps you can have someone test it out in real life. I already know how it will turn out.
Only a reasonable father would not beat you up after that. But of course, for the sake of your theory, we've already assumed this father is unreasonable and irrational.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Himeji
Ah, I see what you're trying to say: that the father said that she should have something to get absorbed in
Again, that's not what I'm trying to say, understand my words, word for word. Kyousuke asked his father what was bad about Kirino having something she could get so absorbed in. Kyousuke was ignoring the main point, that the games themselves are bad. His father did not forbid her from having something to get absorbed in ('he definitely did NOT say having something she could get so absorbed in was bad'). Neither did he say she should have something to get absorbed in. He just didn't mention it. You could have read it more carefully and we wouldn't have wasted another post for this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Himeji
It doesn't really matter if you're saying "you can never know" or "I'm sure it's that way". You can't bring up an argument first and say what a crappy argument it is (quote: "Does this also mean if she had less than perfect grades the father would be justified in his condemnation of her hobby?") but finally say "Perhaps this argument is valid, you never know." That *is* hypocritical, because you're contradicting yourself with that.
Again, you could have read it more carefully and we wouldn't have wasted another post for this. I'm going to spend the next 4 paragraphs just to say one thing.

There is no connection. As I stated clearly, they have nothing to do with each other, Kirino's grades and the inherent nature of those games. I said it in the original post, and I repeat it now.

There is no connection. They are unrelated. Kirino's grades could be bad, or good. The games could be harmless, or worthless, or stupid, or whatever. Kirino's grades don't yet prove anything about those games. Playing those games doesn't immediately imply Kirino's grades would somehow be affected.

"Perhaps this argument is valid, you never know." <--- Not once did I say this. I asked a question. That if your results are good, does it mean your method was ? Obviously you can not draw any definite conclusion at all. Who is it to deny that your method sucked and there's a lot of room for improvement ? And yet who is it to deny you did everything in the best possible way ? Obviously there are ways to confirm that, but looking at the results is not how you do it. That's what "you never know" means, not "perhaps this argument is valid". The argument that "ok the results are good so your method was superb" is invalid, and that is exactly what I went to great lengths to tell you about.

"You never know, the could very well be a connection between her hobby and her grades." <-- My original reply was "If the end results are good does it mean your method was? You can never know, perhaps your method was inefficient and the results could have been much more stellar." And that's what I mean, word for word. Who is it to deny that your method sucked and there's a lot of room for improvement ? And yet who is it to deny you did everything in the best possible way ? I specifically said that to further illustrate that there was no connection (which is something I had said in the very same paragraph), that everything was within the realms of possibility and no definite conclusions could be made. For someone to understand that as "there could well be a connection" is beyond the realms of possiblity, or so I thought.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Himeji
Normally one should assume that he would get it - but that's not the case here, because he refuses to see the pic as what it actually is.
You are the only person left in the room who thinks the father could not (or refused to) understand those friends in that pic are the otaku ones. And your evidence : something you make up, daddy's pure little girl theory and whatnot (you didn't even try to be convincing), not something from ep 3.
The father didn't refuse to get it. You're going off with your own theory. Kyousuke wasn't being unclear, he had just talked about those new friends before that. He wasn't even using a metaphor, or employing any kind of subtlety. There is no evidence to support your claim that the father deliberately refused to understand the pic was of Kirino and her otaku friends.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Himeji
The "depending on where you live" is an important point here. This is Japan and not the US we're talking about here, so I don't see why you're bringing up some US law for this here.
You're grasping at straws here. I wasn't referring to the US law (I simply don't live there), which is too complex and wildly varies from state to state anyway. If you honestly knew what those links contained, you would have simply told me what R18 means for Kirino. What R18 means for Kirino is that Kirino is not supposed to play it. This is where the father is completely right, as Kyousuke said.
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Old 2010-10-30, 20:36   Link #78
Himeji
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aeromono View Post
I never changed my opinion or took back any words on that. Erotic fantasies are never good, and neither are they evil. That's what I said, isn't it?
No, it's *not*. You only said the first part, that they're "never good", you adeed the second (striked out) part later, after me pointing out that this makes you sound preachy.

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Originally Posted by aeromono View Post
Do you honestly not know why I brought up farts ? Because they, like erotic fantasies, are natural and something we're all too familiar with, yet it's still embarrassing to admit you have them and they're thought to be inapproriate in most situations.
Figures. Someone who says that erotic fantasies are never good, would also say that they're just as ugly and unpleasant as farts. No surprise there
I guess you were brought up in the belief that erotic fantasies are ugly and unpleasant... my heartfelt condolences.
If there's any relation whatsoever between erotic fantasies and farts, then it's only that of opposites: while erotic fantasies are healthy and pleasant, farts are ugly and unpleasant.

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Originally Posted by aeromono View Post
You're just grasping at straws here.
You shouldn't be talking with yourself so openly, people might look at you strangely

Quote:
Originally Posted by aeromono View Post
You think it was prejudice-based, intentionally derogatory...
That's exactly what it was, regardless if I think like that or not.

Quote:
Originally Posted by aeromono View Post
but such critics are all too common nowadays. And yet they still call it 'criticism', do they not? There's such a thing as unfair/unfounded criticism.
Most semantic arguments I've seen fail to offer anything cogent at all, and this seems to be one of them.
Just because there are some self-proclamed "critics" today who don't have the tiniest clues about criticism and are in all reality nothing but dimwitted mudslingers, doesn't suddenly turn the prejudiced, derogatory comment of the father into criticism - not at all. To quote a certain someone, "You're just grasping at straws here."

Quote:
Originally Posted by aeromono View Post
So, in a nutshell, he didn't call them worthless or say anything about them. Let's move on.
Ah, finally you understood. That's what I've been saying all the time, he refused to recognise them as otaku and thus never called them worthless (whereas he didn't have any problems calloing Kyousuke worthless, after he recognised him as otaku).

Quote:
Originally Posted by aeromono View Post
You keep assuming he was condemning all anime and made no effort to understand there's actually the distinction between that game and, say, various kinds of 'socially acceptable' anime.
That's nothing I'm assuming, that's how it is. The father simply can't be bothered to make a distinction between the various kinds of a hobby he regards as "worthless", because he avoids it as much as he can. You simply don't spend any time on anything you regard as worthless, and thus you don't know anything about it. Thus, for the father, anything that is somehow drawn or animated is all the same for him, all worthless stuff for otaku.

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Originally Posted by aeromono View Post
Perfect psychological analysis there. I'm pretty sure the father couldn't have just... you know, knocked the son out.
And that's what happens in real life if you try it on a very old-fashioned father in Asia. They are going to be shocked alright, if it's the first time you've ever done that. Then they are going to beat you (by instinct), ground you... but one thing is for sure: they're not going to agree to your request after that (unless you genuflect and make a solemn vow or something).
The father didn't agree to his request, so that's alright already. After Kyousuke's confession that he is the otaku, and that Kirino was only covering up for him, the father's image of "daddy's little girl" was restored, and he was only angry at Kyousuke anymore - and that anger then led him to beat Kyousuke. However, rather than continuing to beat him up, he decided that Kyousuke is too worthless to bother anymore with him, that he isn't worth any effort anymore and best ignored now.
If the father had continued to beat up Kyousuke, that would've meant that he still cared about him at least a bit and hoped that by beating him, he could get him back to normal.
His father however has already written him off as a lost cause which can't be helped anymore, not even if you beat him up or do anything else with him.

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Originally Posted by aeromono View Post
Again, that's not what I'm trying to say, understand my words, word for word. Kyousuke asked his father what was bad about Kirino having something she could get so absorbed in. Kyousuke was ignoring the main point, that the games themselves are bad.
Suuure, the game is so totally exceedingly bad... there's lots of blood and gore in it, dismemberment everywhere, cruel torture... but oh wait, there isn't! If there was, the game would be ok, because violence is fine.
What makes the game so terribly bad is that there's nudity in it! Oh noes! And sexual themes! Everyone will turn into raging beasts if they see that!

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Originally Posted by aeromono View Post
There is no connection. As I stated clearly, they have nothing to do with each other, Kirino's grades and the inherent nature of those games. I said it in the original post, and I repeat it now.

There is no connection. They are unrelated. Kirino's grades could be bad, or good. The games could be harmless, or worthless, or stupid, or whatever. Kirino's grades don't yet prove anything about those games. Playing those games doesn't immediately imply Kirino's grades would somehow be affected.
Fine. Good that we finally established that there's no connection between her anime hobby and grades.

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Originally Posted by aeromono View Post
"Perhaps this argument is valid, you never know." <--- Not once did I say this. I asked a question. That if your results are good, does it mean your method was ? Obviously you can not draw any definite conclusion at all. ...
"Oops, I did it again." <-- That should be you, because you're doing again and haven't learned one bit. Right after we finally *did* draw a final conclusion, namely that there is *no connection*, which you even repeated two times, you suddenly go into the opposite direction again and claim that there's no definite conclusion and all that.
What was that again with the "attention span of a goldfish"? Might be fitting there

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Originally Posted by aeromono View Post
You are the only person left in the room who thinks...
I'm indeed getting the impression that I'm the only one who thinks in this debate
Besides, declaring yourself as "the room" and everyone else who has a different opinion as "the last person left" is very egomanic - which is why I'm passing up on a further reply. This is going nowhere anyway

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Originally Posted by aeromono View Post
If you honestly knew what those links contained, you would have simply told me what R18 means for Kirino.
Why don't you read what's written there yourself? Can't be bothered? Wouldn't it be better to inform yourself about it, before you start talking about it?
In case you can't read Japanese, which wouldn't surprise me... you do know how to use a search engine and look up the Japanese rating of eroge?
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Old 2010-10-30, 21:58   Link #79
CrowKenobi
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This is going nowhere anyway
It has been going nowhere for a while now...

I think you and aeromono have discussed whatever idea you've had to death and are now finally starting to loop back to the beginning, so let's end this here and if anyone feels the need to debate anyone else's post point-by-point, please put it in spoiler tags so the wall of text doesn't make everyone
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Old 2010-10-31, 04:36   Link #80
aeromono
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So I have a question : Did the father understand the picture was of Kirino and her new otaku friends that Kyousuke had mentioned just before that ? Or just the 'normal' ones somehow thrown into the discussion?

Last edited by aeromono; 2010-10-31 at 04:54.
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