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Old 2010-10-29, 21:10   Link #18241
AuraTwilight
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Dlanor confirms in red that Battler was the Detective for the first four episodes.

As for Hachijou. she claims to be the authors of Episodes 3 and onwards. The first two message bottles were apparently written by Beatrice.
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Old 2010-10-29, 22:30   Link #18242
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Originally Posted by C-chan View Post
Is Fetherine writing EP 6 while the events were taking place or did she wrote EP6?
Featherine claims to just be observing a fragment created by Battler, and Tohya simultaneously claims to have written it herself. It may not actually be possible to tell which one of them is telling the truth, and that's assuming either of them are in the first place.
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Old 2010-10-29, 22:59   Link #18243
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They could be simultaneously right, though.
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Old 2010-10-30, 01:16   Link #18244
Kylon99
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Originally Posted by TehChron View Post
And then we have the funeral scene at the very beginning of the Episode 7. If Battler really did fail to "kill", her, then how are we supposed to interpret that funeral? He didnt kill her, just laid her to rest?

Thats an odd inconsistency.
Hmmm... you know, Battler Prime may very well be the cape-wielding head of the family that was portrayed as in EP5. And of course, if he is still alive then he may have found the truth as well, which is what EP7 depicts?

Basically if Battler and Ange are alive, and never went to the island that day, then Battler could technically be the next head of the family after Eva, if Eva also survived. He would be just like Kinzo, a chosen successor from the remnants of the family and would not particularly relish his job, just like Kinzo, and sort of depicted that way in EP5.

I mean, ok, Ange could have been chosen to be the next head, but there's a possibility it fell on Battler. It would depend on what's shown in EP8.
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Old 2010-10-30, 06:47   Link #18245
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Originally Posted by Kylon99 View Post
Basically if Battler and Ange are alive, and never went to the island that day, then Battler could technically be the next head of the family after Eva, if Eva also survived. He would be just like Kinzo, a chosen successor from the remnants of the family and would not particularly relish his job, just like Kinzo, and sort of depicted that way in EP5.
Hey I like this idea! Its meta as hell but it could explain why he never dies until the end. It could be that his sin is leaving the family and never returning back to it. If he had returned then he could have stopped the murders from happening. Pretty big reveal if it happens like that in EP8.
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Old 2010-10-30, 12:14   Link #18246
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If he had returned then he could have stopped the murders from happening.
Possible, but we've been told that things got ugly precisely because he returned.

Anyway, rather than leaving, I think his sin was giving empty hope to Yasu. Had he never made any promise with her, I think, even if he had left, nothing would have happened.
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Old 2010-10-30, 13:20   Link #18247
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What Used Can said. Besides, we can pretty much take for a fact that Battler went to Rokkenjima, otherwise you know it'd be quite a hell of an important detail in Witch Hunters' investigation. Someone would have seen him.

He could still be alive, but either way, he had to have gone to Rokkenjima and then escaped.
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Old 2010-10-30, 14:57   Link #18248
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I have two questions:

1. In EP5 we get this one red truth: Kinzo is already dead and then we get All deaths were homicides.

Does the second red refers only to deaths during the October 4-5 1986 or somebody actually murdered Kinzo few years before these events?

2. Near the end of EP4 Beatrice urges Battler to remember a certain sin from the past. Of course, we all know he doesn't remember it. Right after that we get the scene where she asks him to say that he was born from Ushiromiya Asumu. If ShKanontrice is true, then what kind of business Shannon/Kanon could have with Asumu? Have I missed something important?
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Old 2010-10-30, 15:05   Link #18249
Cao Ni Ma
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Originally Posted by dopelfish View Post
I have two questions:

1. In EP5 we get this one red truth: Kinzo is already dead and then we get All deaths were homicides.

Does the second red refers only to deaths during the October 4-5 1986 or somebody actually murdered Kinzo few years before these events?

2. Near the end of EP4 Beatrice urges Battler to remember a certain sin from the past. Of course, we all know he doesn't remember it. Right after that we get the scene where she asks him to say that he was born from Ushiromiya Asumu. If ShKanontrice is true, then what kind of business Shannon/Kanon could have with Asumu? Have I missed something important?
1 could be referring to the actual games, its a taboo to have the murders end up being suicide or natural causes, but when the game started Kinzo was already dead so it doesn't matter.

2nd I dont think Beatrice cared about Battler's parentage, it was probably more of a way to psyche him out of the game till he gathered the balls to face her again. Also it segways nicely with Battler's 'truth' in EP5
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Old 2010-10-30, 17:59   Link #18250
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1. Kinzo was already dead before the "mystery" started, so the second Red doesn't apply to him.

2. Battler's Sin and Battler's Parentage aren't connected. Beatrice was upset over his inability to remember his sin, so she tried to get rid of him.
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Old 2010-10-31, 14:40   Link #18251
dopelfish
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Originally Posted by Cao Ni Ma
1 could be referring to the actual games, its a taboo to have the murders end up being suicide or natural causes, but when the game started Kinzo was already dead so it doesn't matter.
That's what I suspected, I just wanted to see what other people think about it.

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2. Battler's Sin and Battler's Parentage aren't connected. Beatrice was upset over his inability to remember his sin, so she tried to get rid of him.
Then why this one particular sentence of all things? Why is it so important for the culprit to fight Asumu's next of kin? It seems to me that Beatrice acknowledged Battler as an equal (a worthy opponent) just because of his blood ties...
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Old 2010-10-31, 14:54   Link #18252
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Battler's sin isn't the sole factor that brought the tragedy however.
If anything, everything Kinzo is 100 times more responsible then anything Battler ever did. The same time Beatrice said his sin wasn't related to his immediate family she also said that the sin wasn't between Beato and Battler... which is really splitting hair.


Was wondering if anyone had a theory on how the fake death figures in all of this. I mean for the arc 5-6 fake death to occur there has to be an high level of planning from someone and high level of cooperation from the rest. I guess it could be that these scenarios are, so to say, "not canonical" in that Beato and LD might have disregarded the credibility factor of their games. Still.... I mean.... Suppose the topic was brough up uppon them on the morning of the 4th, then good luck having Eva successfully acting a drama over her son's death (even going as far as hitting Natsuhi over and over in total rage and even Battler who tried to stop her) without even knowing in advance it would happen. Some people are born actors I guess but there's a limit. There isn't any group of 16 people (excluding Battler) who can spontaneously act for 48 hours in a row without ever making a single mistake. So unless it's a arc 5-6 "bad writing" case, then it seems likely to me everyone knew beforehand they'd be faking their death in this fashion and most likely rehearshed it before (or somehow practiced it).
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Old 2010-10-31, 15:42   Link #18253
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The same time Beatrice said his sin wasn't related to his immediate family she also said that the sin wasn't between Beato and Battler... which is really splitting hair.
Well, if we go by Battler's sin is not keeping one particular promise, then that sin wasn't between Battler and Beato, but between him and Shannon/Yasu.
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Old 2010-10-31, 16:18   Link #18254
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That was sorta my point. It's such hair splitting that you could also say something like "Kyrie" wasn't Battler's immediate family 6 years ago, for instance.
All I'm saying is that, when reading arc 4, most people I believe had the impression that "whoever Beatrice really is, it's not to that person that Battler sinned" and that appears to be a wrong impression, likely given to us on purpose by Ryukishi. As such I don't think we should ever trust the words of witches too much since they have the power to split hair to be "arguably right", even in red.
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Old 2010-10-31, 16:40   Link #18255
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Originally Posted by UsagiTenpura View Post
That was sorta my point. It's such hair splitting that you could also say something like "Kyrie" wasn't Battler's immediate family 6 years ago, for instance.
All I'm saying is that, when reading arc 4, most people I believe had the impression that "whoever Beatrice really is, it's not to that person that Battler sinned" and that appears to be a wrong impression, likely given to us on purpose by Ryukishi. As such I don't think we should ever trust the words of witches too much since they have the power to split hair to be "arguably right", even in red.
Though if we use BATTLER's game in EP6 as a basis, Shannon/Yasu's major conflict comes from choosing between three things: Choosing to be with George and forgetting about Battler and the feelings of the family(Shannon), choosing to be with Battler and forgetting about the feelings of George and the family(Beatrice), or choose none and remain the status quo and probably even announce her headship(Kanon).

So I think that Battler's sin is just as important in triggering the murders.
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Old 2010-10-31, 16:42   Link #18256
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Quote:
Then why this one particular sentence of all things? Why is it so important for the culprit to fight Asumu's next of kin? It seems to me that Beatrice acknowledged Battler as an equal (a worthy opponent) just because of his blood ties...
It really has nothing to do with it. The only person who can fight Beatrice is Battler, who is Kinzo's grandson. She was trying to psyche him out by mentioning that Asumu isn't his mother, making him panic and worry that he's not actually Battler at all.

Quote:
Was wondering if anyone had a theory on how the fake death figures in all of this.
There's nothing stating they had to be keeping up the corpse act the whole 48 hours. Just when people are watching.

Quote:
That was sorta my point. It's such hair splitting that you could also say something like "Kyrie" wasn't Battler's immediate family 6 years ago, for instance.
Yasu's worldview is pretty insistent on the opinion that her multiple personas are not the same person. Even if she doesn't have it, she seems to be pretending she has DID at the very least.
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Old 2010-10-31, 18:20   Link #18257
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Originally Posted by dopelfish View Post
Then why this one particular sentence of all things? Why is it so important for the culprit to fight Asumu's next of kin? It seems to me that Beatrice acknowledged Battler as an equal (a worthy opponent) just because of his blood ties...
It's not important for her to fight Asumu's next of kin. She was lashing out at Battler in the most harmful way she knew: attacking his ties the woman that made him forget his promise to Yasu and leave the family for six years.

Battler chose Asumu over everyone else. Beato, hurt and angry that the words she had held to her heart for a thousand years didn't even register as something to be remembered by Battler, then cruelly severed his (assumed) ties to his beloved mother in one fell swoop.
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Old 2010-10-31, 18:50   Link #18258
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Originally Posted by UsagiTenpura View Post
Was wondering if anyone had a theory on how the fake death figures in all of this. I mean for the arc 5-6 fake death to occur there has to be an high level of planning from someone and high level of cooperation from the rest. I guess it could be that these scenarios are, so to say, "not canonical" in that Beato and LD might have disregarded the credibility factor of their games.
This goes to the Epitaph Game theory some of the others mentioned prior to EP7 being released. I was reading some ideas or partial theory that Jan-Poo put forth and thought it was very relevant. The only thing that I thought was a problem was that I believed those running the 'Epitaph Game' weren't given to violence but EP7 seems to suggest that Beatrice was.


A quick summary of the theory, now with EP7 ideas is that Beatrice doesn't want to be the head of the family. In fact it seems that every person portrayed as the head of the family doesn't really want it. In Eva's case I think the portrayal was that it ruined her life (like her relationship with Ange, etc.)

So Beatrice intends to re-purpose the Epitaph from what Kinzo originally designed it as into a 'ceremony,' ostensibly to revive the witch but actually to encourage someone else to step up as the head. This fits in with why she has the ring and why the ring shows up and is given to the people who did happen to solve it.


We've also seen the dual-nature of the Epitaph, once a simple word puzzle from Kinzo and yet also a ceremony that is conducted by what I used to call the Beatrice Faction in EP1-6. Note that I put the Beatrice Faction as GENSAWAJO, plus Shannon and Kanon. But while people like Rosa and Kyrie clearly lies for this faction, they don't do it consistently.

This was cleared up after I realized that if they're following the Epitaph that they must also be choosing a 'key.' In EP2, Beatrice said to Rosa something like that "it could've been any of the siblings but the roulette wheel chose you." So what's probably happening is the Beatrice faction is choosing a key to guide 'someone' to solve this process.

The Epitaph Game seems to be all a show for Battler, who I think is the 'someone' the Keys are chosen to guide. If you look at EP1-3, Natsuhi, Rosa and Eva clearly stays with Battler whenever they can and are a part of the 'process.' That is until the end when Rosa and Eva finally got suspicious and Rosa faked planting the letter as an excuse to drive Battler away whereas Eva simply just shot him. Natsuhi seems to have protected him to the end. Kyrie wasn't able to stay with Battler but did phone him and try to convince him to believe in magic.


I think also that one of the fatal mistakes was getting Rudolf to call Battler back. I believe a large sum of money was promised, or at least shown to Rudolf and Kyrie and this gave them the certainty of belief that someone controlled a vast sum of money. And part of what the end of EP7 portrays is this greed. I believe Rudolf and Kyrie have their own plans apart from the siblings because they were shown or hinted to about this money. This money would be the letter that Ange received with the bank safety deposit box.


Anyways, that's just a quick spill of my thoughts. My signature link also has this theory spelled out a bit more clearly, though it's only with EP6 information.
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Old 2010-11-01, 02:21   Link #18259
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Thought of something random just now, as an explanation of the often-debated Kinzo Preservation issue.

What if Battler also inherited the six toe thing from Kinzo? Wouldnt that make it possible for him to be the charred corpse in Episodes 1 and 4? And in that regard, he'd either be like a Sixth Sense type of detective, or also our Battler may just be a fake who's been given that name?

We've never had it confirmed in red that the charred corpse is Kinzo, after all. It just has the identifying feature of those six toes marking him as such.
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Old 2010-11-01, 03:09   Link #18260
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Originally Posted by TehChron View Post
Thought of something random just now, as an explanation of the often-debated Kinzo Preservation issue.

What if Battler also inherited the six toe thing from Kinzo? Wouldnt that make it possible for him to be the charred corpse in Episodes 1 and 4? And in that regard, he'd either be like a Sixth Sense type of detective, or also our Battler may just be a fake who's been given that name?

We've never had it confirmed in red that the charred corpse is Kinzo, after all. It just has the identifying feature of those six toes marking him as such.

Dude that's like the only person I've never heard a theory of having six toes for. I've heard Rudolf, Hideyoshi, Kanon, etc. Never Battler. I love you for that!

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Well there's the problem of Beato 2 still.
From arc 1 we know that Beatrice of the portrait is definitively not asian looking and truly blonde, according to Battler.
Now we learn that Kinzo saw Beato 2 as Beato 1 reborn and that they looked exactly the same. It's not about what's shown to us on screen but what's told to us. Battler's inner thoughts in arc 1 can be definitively taken as evidence that Jessica's hair isn't really blonde. More to the point, if Beato 2 was Kinzo and Beato 1's daughter, it seems pretty impossible she'd look exactly like her mother. Sometimes very recessive genes can make the child of an asian and a caucasian look more like a caucasian, that's true, but outside of albinism I never heard of such a child having blue eyes and blonde hair just like her mother.

Of course there's somewhat silly ways to turn around that. Maybe Beato 2 looked exactly like her mother outside of the eyes and hair, and so Kinzo had experimental 1952 contact lenses (hey he is Kinzo after all) and made her wear a wig. There's also probably more coherent answers: Either Ryukishi didn't think this through or simply, Beato 1 was already pregnant by the time she met Kinzo, but Kinzo (and possibly herself) wasn't aware of it and so Kinzo assumed it was his own child, and would add more to the belief it was her reincarnation.
I think we are to beleive Kinzo is albino or that he has a gene where his hair turns white at a young age. Like the Sumaderas. And his kids apparently don't have it since they take after their mother, but him and Beato could have the gene. Beyond that people on this island will beleive they see a minotaur goat if you wear a goat mask so mistaking albino for blonde is not beyond Kinzo or the Ushiromiyas at all.

But hey the purple eyes argument makes a good point! none of it is really realistic. It's just anime logic. Things like white hair and purples eyes are generally things that mark personality. Purple eyes and white hair generally are there to apply "mystique" or "mysteriousness" to a character. Red eyes on Zombie Kanon is representing "evil" or "the enemy". It doesn't really mean anything it's just there to differentiate people.
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