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View Poll Results: Ore no Imouto - Episode 4 Rating
Perfect 10 54 40.30%
9 out of 10 : Excellent 43 32.09%
8 out of 10 : Very Good 19 14.18%
7 out of 10 : Good 14 10.45%
6 out of 10 : Average 4 2.99%
5 out of 10 : Below Average 0 0%
4 out of 10 : Poor 0 0%
3 out of 10 : Bad 0 0%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad 0 0%
1 out of 10 : Painful 0 0%
Voters: 134. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2010-10-28, 05:31   Link #241
ID555
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Quote:
Originally Posted by omimon View Post
But I love Koi Kaze, I guess when I watch anime I at least hope for some sort of connection with reality since I want to see it in a light that I can relate to. But seeing how the series has been written I don't see it going all serious on us like Koi but hey you never know.
Oh yeah, if you're going for realism, Koi Kaze is very well done (maybe too well done? )

Last edited by ID555; 2010-10-28 at 06:46. Reason: ;)
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Old 2010-10-28, 07:18   Link #242
risingstar3110
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Originally Posted by jeroz View Post
I love my saya no uta, does that mean I'll kill people?

Kirino plays those games from the viewpoint of the oniisan, she likes little girls, not the other way round.


When the author is teasing the audience with social commentary, it's fun.
not to mention it gives me a legitimate reason to have a debate with the ignorants.
*look at Kirino face when Kuroneko told her that she gonna help her sister to take her bath*

Yeah she's simply like cute little sisters, no doubt about that
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Old 2010-10-31, 13:38   Link #243
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I found this anime very promising after the first episode or two, and was pleasantly surprised that instead of the incest-driven narrative that I had been expecting with this, we instead were treated to a narrative that fairly seriously delves into what it is like to be an otaku in modern Japan, and the comedic and difficult situations that this can entail.

We see this against the fitting backdrop of familial conflicts and familial bonds.


However, I found episode 4 to be very disappointing in this regard, as it went for cheap and cliche fanservice that undermines the overall novel premise and approach of this anime, and which also hints that this anime may end up being incest-driven after all.

Beyond that, I agree with others that were critical of Kirino's character in this episode.

I have two younger sisters myself, so I am familiar with how it's fairly typical for younger sisters to not want older brothers around when the younger sisters have friends over. And, yes, most sibling relationships have at least some bickering in them, including my own.

That being said, after the extraordinary events of Episode 3, Kirino comes across as one of the most ungrateful characters of all time.

That really should have earned Kyosuke something of an extended grace period from his sister; instead, this episode came across as her being more harsh to him than ever.

In a vacuum, episode 4 doesn't make Kirino look that bad, but in the grander scheme of things it makes her look entirely unappreciative of the incredible lengths that her brother has gone to help her out.


On the whole, I still have some cautious optimism for this anime, as I liked the first three episodes a fair bit. This anime can still be something fairly novel, genuinely quite interesting, and somewhat original.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Ricky Controversy View Post
So just because there is an alternative, you are going to dismiss an entirely effective execution as 'stupid fanservice?'
It's entirely effective execution... of a cliched and horribly overused comedic bit. In a work that is otherwise fairly original and fresh. This anime would have been better off without it, Ricky.

It is stupid, pointless fanservice, unless it doubles as foreshadowing of a possible incest relationship between the two siblings. Otherwise, the comedy fanservice bit will soon be forgotten, precisely because it is so common, and its slapstick comedy nature can undermine any serious point that the anime is trying to make with it.

A more subtle scene would have been much more effective... at getting across the point of Kirino's displeasure with her brother and the overall anxiety of the broader situation and circumstances in the scene. A more subtle scene would have done this because it would have been less distracting from the overall effect of the scene.

To put it another way, the use of over-the-top, but cliche, fanservice in this scene has the effect of drawing intense viewer attention to that brief moment of fanservice, causing the rest of the scene to pale in comparison in its impact upon many viewers. The overall scene becomes less seamless because of it.

As such, what could have been a very effective scene providing meaningful plot and character development turns into a scene that many viewers will simply look back and laugh or giggle or dismiss or become titillated at.

You can kill a small insect with a mallet, but sometimes more subtle and precise instruments should be used...


Quote:
But from the standpoint of storytelling analysis, calling that scene "stupid fanservice" is provably wrong.
I disagree. I don't think that you proved any such thing.

It is stupid fanservice if all it does is serve to detract from the broader goals of the scene, instead of adding to them, and I think that a strong case can be made that it does detract from those broader goals.

Now, it could still hold value as foreshadowing of what's to come, but that remains to be seen, of course (for those of us not familiar with the source material, as I myself am not).
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Old 2010-10-31, 13:52   Link #244
Kudryavka
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Why is Kirino such a bitch to her brother, when he's only trying to help her out...

Interesting ep, Kirino's still an ass to her bro, Saori has an internet facade, I'm loving Kuroneko, and Ayaseee?!?! Good stuff.

Last edited by Kudryavka; 2010-10-31 at 14:46.
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Old 2010-10-31, 14:30   Link #245
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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
It's entirely effective execution... of a cliched and horribly overused comedic bit. In a work that is otherwise fairly original and fresh. This anime would have been better off without it, Ricky.

It is stupid, pointless fanservice, unless it doubles as foreshadowing of a possible incest relationship between the two siblings. Otherwise, the comedy fanservice bit will soon be forgotten, precisely because it is so common, and its slapstick comedy nature can undermine any serious point that the anime is trying to make with it.
The fact you're perceiving it as mere slapstick comedy is part of the issue, and I will admit that for that reason, I think showing Kirino's underwear was a bad idea, because it detracted from what was to me the actual point of the scene: the impact the event had on people's impressions of the main character.

I had a quite different reaction to the grope. It wasn't "haha, he groped his sister" like a slapstick scene normally would evoke. It was more like "OH S*** HE GROPED HIS SISTER", complete with nervous laughter and chills down the spine. I reacted differently because episode three made it clear to me that the impact of being... "compromised" is this anime are not to be triffled with. In essence, the nature of Ore no Imouto itself allowed it to take a cliched scene and give it an entirely different meaning and impact for me. In fact, I suspect that's why the author chose such a cliched scenario in in the first place.
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Old 2010-10-31, 14:50   Link #246
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 0utf0xZer0 View Post
The fact you're perceiving it as mere slapstick comedy is part of the issue,
I don't think that it's mere slapstick comedy, but there is a slapstick comedy element to it.

And yes, providing such a detailed look at Kirino's underwear certainly can distract from the point of the scene (not to mention making it a bit more unrealistic, imo). Take that away, and perhaps the comedic collapse would have been subtle enough, imo.


Quote:

I had a quite different reaction to the grope. It wasn't "haha, he groped his sister" like a slapstick scene normally would evoke. It was more like "OH S*** HE GROPED HIS SISTER", complete with nervous laughter and chills down the spine. I reacted differently because episode three made it clear to me that the impact of being... "compromised" is this anime are not to be triffled with. In essence, the nature of Ore no Imouto itself allowed it to take a cliched scene and give it an entirely different meaning and impact for me. In fact, I suspect that's why the author chose such a cliched scenario in in the first place.
How's that an "entirely different" meaning and impact from how collapses like this normally play out?

Comedic pratfalls like this frequently involve the male lead falling on top of an important tsundere character (as is the case here), and part of the humor is nervous laughter and chills down the spine at how she's going to react to that.


To elaborate a bit further on why I disliked this fanservice bit... Ore no Imouto has admirably aimed to be very realistic. In fact, I perceive that to be the whole point of the show: this is an anime about what it is like to be an otaku in the real world (as opposed to, say, the comedy world of Lucky Star). This makes suspension of disbelief very important for Ore no Imouto to achieve.

By injecting a comedic collapse that is not very realistic, the anime really risks breaking that suspension, and making itself look like a more slapstick-driven comedy like Love Hina!

Nothing necessarily wrong with fanservice like this in Love Hina!, but here in this anime I think it runs contrary to what the anime seems to be trying to achieve.
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Old 2010-10-31, 15:38   Link #247
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@Triple_R

I wonder why every person who has been trying to argue with Ricky has repeated the same thing over and over again about the nature of the fan service, taking the first part of his post and ignoring the good point he is trying to make with regards to the scene that follows next involving Ayase and Kyousuke.
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Old 2010-10-31, 15:53   Link #248
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Falkor View Post
@Triple_R

I wonder why every person who has been trying to argue with Ricky has repeated the same thing over and over again about the nature of the fan service, taking the first part of his post and ignoring the good point he is trying to make with regards to the scene that follows next involving Ayase and Kyousuke.
I simply disagree with his argument there. I don't think that you needed this fanservice as a prerequisite for Ayase approaching Kyousuke. I think that this all would have worked perfectly fine without the fanservice. The sibling fight over the box was a considerable disturbance for Kirino's friends in and of itself. As long as it resolved with the two siblings still angry with one another, you'd have a suitable lead in to Ayase approaching Kyousuke. Remember that a big part of why Ayase approached Kyousuke was to explain to him that she could understand the real reason why he made off with the box. Her desire to make such an explanation would be there with or with out the fanservice. One can argue then that the fanservice is entirely superfluous to the scene.

Furthermore, the source material clearly didn't need this fanservice (or not to this degree, anyway), going by what others on this thread stated.
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Old 2010-10-31, 17:05   Link #249
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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
I simply disagree with his argument there. I don't think that you needed this fan service as a prerequisite for Ayase approaching Kyousuke. I think that this all would have worked perfectly fine without the fanservice. The sibling fight over the box was a considerable disturbance for Kirino's friends in and of itself. As long as it resolved with the two siblings still angry with one another, you'd have a suitable lead in to Ayase approaching Kyousuke. Remember that a big part of why Ayase approached Kyousuke was to explain to him that she could understand the real reason why he made off with the box. Her desire to make such an explanation would be there with or with out the fanservice. One can argue then that the fan service is entirely superfluous to the scene.

Furthermore, the source material clearly didn't need this fan service (or not to this degree, anyway), going by what others on this thread stated.
I agree with this. The same thing happens in episode 5 but it's censored this time. This is all a plot to get more sales as if the hentai mangas of this are not produced already to satisfy that type of clientèle.
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Old 2010-10-31, 18:51   Link #250
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Kirino seem to be suffering from the 2nd volume syndrome. Even after the resolution at the end of the first volume she will still be similar to what she was in the 2nd Light Novel volume.

Though some people had said that her personality in the first 3 eps doesn't seem to be bitchy enough in the anime version, so guess this Kirino is the one we are suppose to know?
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Old 2010-10-31, 19:59   Link #251
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Originally Posted by Francismeunier View Post
I agree with this. The same thing happens in episode 5 but it's censored this time. This is all a plot to get more sales as if the hentai mangas of this are not produced already to satisfy that type of clientèle.
You could very well be right.


I want to say that I might have been a bit too stern or harsh in a couple of my replies on this thread. That fanservice scene really was a bit of an "universe breaking" moment to me; similar to a copy of the Double Dragon game showing up in the Double Dragon movie (fans of The Nostalgia Critic probably know what I'm talking about here ).

Anyway, I don't want to belabor the point too much, so I'll try to leave it at that.
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Old 2010-10-31, 21:30   Link #252
Himeji
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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
That being said, after the extraordinary events of Episode 3, Kirino comes across as one of the most ungrateful characters of all time.

That really should have earned Kyosuke something of an extended grace period from his sister; instead, this episode came across as her being more harsh to him than ever.

In a vacuum, episode 4 doesn't make Kirino look that bad, but in the grander scheme of things it makes her look entirely unappreciative of the incredible lengths that her brother has gone to help her out.
Trying to explain why Kirino behaves the way she does. Up until the beginning of the series, it seems that Kirino and Kyousuke have been having a very poor relationship. Now that Kyousuke knows about the secret of Kirino's anime hobby, they are finally starting to get more involved with each other. I'm sure Kirino is thankful for Kyousuke sacrificing the last tiny bit of reputation (it obviously was never much in the first place) by defending her from the father. However, she has no idea how to show her gratitude, so for now in ep. 4, she still acts habitually, like she's used to treat Kyousuke. You don't change long years of habit over night. I'm sure improvements in her behaviour towards Kyousuke will come, but you can't expect it to happen over night. Let's see what ep. 5 brings.
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Old 2010-10-31, 21:33   Link #253
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Originally Posted by Himeji View Post
Trying to explain why Kirino behaves the way she does. Up until the beginning of the series, it seems that Kirino and Kyousuke have been having a very poor relationship. Now that Kyousuke knows about the secret of Kirino's anime hobby, they are finally starting to get more involved with each other. I'm sure Kirino is thankful for Kyousuke sacrificing the last tiny bit of reputation (it obviously was never much in the first place) by defending her from the father. However, she has no idea how to show her gratitude, so for now in ep. 4, she still acts habitually, like she's used to treat Kyousuke. You don't change long years of habit over night. I'm sure improvements in her behaviour towards Kyousuke will come, but you can't expect it to happen over night. Let's see what ep. 5 brings.
Ok, those are good points.

Maybe my own frame of reference isn't the most useful here since I had a pretty good relationship (not great, but Ok) with my two younger sisters.

I can see how two siblings who have been very distant from one another for a long time can find it hard to act friendly/cordially to one another after all that time.

I'll wait to see if Kirino's character develops over time. Hopefully it will.
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Old 2010-10-31, 23:43   Link #254
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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
I simply disagree with his argument there. I don't think that you needed this fanservice as a prerequisite for Ayase approaching Kyousuke. I think that this all would have worked perfectly fine without the fanservice. The sibling fight over the box was a considerable disturbance for Kirino's friends in and of itself. As long as it resolved with the two siblings still angry with one another, you'd have a suitable lead in to Ayase approaching Kyousuke. Remember that a big part of why Ayase approached Kyousuke was to explain to him that she could understand the real reason why he made off with the box. Her desire to make such an explanation would be there with or with out the fanservice. One can argue then that the fanservice is entirely superfluous to the scene.

Furthermore, the source material clearly didn't need this fanservice (or not to this degree, anyway), going by what others on this thread stated.
I'm not sure if I'm really the right person to be arguing this. it does not really concern me and I have very little intentions of arguing over a dead issue; all I wanted to do is point out how everyone has only taken the first part of Ricky's post, and not bother to address the point being made.

however, nowhere does Ricky say that the scene was a prerequisite for Ayase in order to approach her best friend's brother. The issue is not why Ayase approached Kyo or whether the scene would have occurred had it not been for the previous fight, it's the fact that she's willing to approach and befriend him, even after witnessing how her best friend was groped by him---compare Ayase's behavior to Kanako's, who leaves right after and ignores him---; she could have done the same thing, but was willing to have a conversation and be friends with him, despite witnessing the same scene that made her other friend run off. I think it adds a certain degree of personality to Ayase's character, and emphasizes both her maturity and sincere concerns for her best friend. This is how I understood Ricky's point of view, and I wished people will do the same. it's not about the fan service being bad or not, or whether the scene should have done without it; it's the effect this has on the story, on the perception of the characters---like it or not, agree or disagree with it, I still think Ricky makes a nice point analyzing the situation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ricky Controversy View Post
If it had no consequences, it'd be pointless, but it wasn't, because that scene affected to some degree the way Kirino's friends perceive her brother, and it was also enough of a disturbance that it derailed the situation that Kirino feared would damn her in her friends' eyes.

Yes, it was ecchi. If it had simply been something to distract from Kirino's H-doujin, then perhaps a less ecchi scene would have sufficed. But there's the further purpose of playing up Ayase's personality in that, after seeing such a thing with her own eyes, she is actually willing to approach Kyousuke, clear the situation up, and exchange numbers with him. If it had been a less catastrophic misunderstanding, her kind nature and her apparent keenness on Kyousuke would not have been so emphasized.

It serves two meaningful story functions, and thus I hardly consider it stupid.
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Old 2010-11-01, 01:54   Link #255
0utf0xZer0
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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
How's that an "entirely different" meaning and impact from how collapses like this normally play out?

Comedic pratfalls like this frequently involve the male lead falling on top of an important tsundere character (as is the case here), and part of the humor is nervous laughter and chills down the spine at how she's going to react to that.


To elaborate a bit further on why I disliked this fanservice bit... Ore no Imouto has admirably aimed to be very realistic. In fact, I perceive that to be the whole point of the show: this is an anime about what it is like to be an otaku in the real world (as opposed to, say, the comedy world of Lucky Star). This makes suspension of disbelief very important for Ore no Imouto to achieve.

By injecting a comedic collapse that is not very realistic, the anime really risks breaking that suspension, and making itself look like a more slapstick-driven comedy like Love Hina!

Nothing necessarily wrong with fanservice like this in Love Hina!, but here in this anime I think it runs contrary to what the anime seems to be trying to achieve.
The thing is, I don't find the fact he groped his sister that unrealistic - accidents happen. The fact he half ripped her top off in the process is, admittedly, pretty implausible and why I said I thought that bit wasn't a great idea.

In addition, while I think Ore no Imouto is a pretty realistic show by otaku anime standards, I don't think it was ever intended to be entirely realistic. Remember, the initial gag of the series is "my little sister is secretly into lolicon incest eroge". Even considering that I know a few female eroge players, I find that an improbable occurrence. Or heck, just consider the lengths Kyousuke is willing to go to to cover for his sister. So to me, the show has never been above using the occasion improbable element for dramatic and comedic value.

I've had "cliche induced facepalm" moments too, this just isn't one of them.

(Also, I think there's something about the fact that it's his sister that both makes the scene funnier and more of an "Oh s***!" moment for me. The usual "falls on a tsundere scenario" just doesn't have the same impact - or gravity - for me.)
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Old 2010-11-03, 22:41   Link #256
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Originally Posted by Francismeunier View Post
I agree with this. The same thing happens in episode 5 but it's censored this time. This is all a plot to get more sales as if the hentai mangas of this are not produced already to satisfy that type of clientèle.

Problem here is that the trip scene is present in the novel. the only difference is that Kyosuke grope Kirino's breast and in novel Kyosuke is said to be in position of "ripping away Kirino's bra"


As for Triple_R's comment, I personally think it's a good analysis, but at same time there are plenty of slap-stick jokes and comedy in the novel that was left out. To me, they are all part of the whole work.
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Old 2010-11-12, 17:01   Link #257
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"Stand by ready" Like I'd let that slip by me.

It's also times like this where I wish they made Kiirino a bit older so I don't feel like such a pedo for watching certain scenes.

Ayase and Kuroneko were pretty likable this episode.
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Old 2011-04-04, 09:29   Link #258
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I would like to estimate this episode is "8 out of 10 : Very Good".
I cannot helping grinning when Kuroneko passed her prize to Kirino.
They seems very similar in their dishonesy.
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