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Old 2010-11-01, 17:21   Link #18281
Acinem
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I was realy "suprised" when i heard that red truth
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"Because of love, you end up seeing thing that don't even exist" - Erika Furudo
"Sympathy is evil liquor that proud are most fond of" - Dlanor A. Knox
"I am the cruelest witch in the world and I'll make any opponent of mine surrender without fail" - Frederica Bernkastel
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Old 2010-11-01, 18:03   Link #18282
Leafsnail
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Whoever's writing this story clearly doesn't like to think things through too much. Consistency in the court scene is all over the place (burden of evidence switches randomly, final conclusion doesn't make sense, witch solution is ouright denied for no apparent reason and so on).
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Old 2010-11-01, 18:06   Link #18283
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Originally Posted by LyricalAura View Post
Beatrice-2 is a character who has appeared in the story. She's also been presented as the child of Kinzo, so she could have inherited his polydactyly. It's been a long time since she died, but Kinzo could have had her embalmed after her body was discovered, and it was explicitly stated that the gender of the burnt corpse couldn't be determined.
Beatrice 2's head is smashed and caved in. That would have been noticed on the burnt corpse.

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Oh on the contrary. I beleive I was one of the people who originally pointed out Ryukishi seemed to like to color code his characters like that when I noticed the stakes had red suits and the Eiserne Jungfrau had blue ones. and Kylon and me came up with most of these. In fact I think it was him who pointed out that George is pretty much represented by black/white text. Along with Kinzo too probably. Black hair, Black shirt, white tie, black eyes and a yellow suit. Clever no?

That and purple might mean something similar to white text if we take into account the colors used for both Siesta 556 and Zepar.
I must have come up with the idea independently of the both of you; it was something I picked up on the moment I finished EP4 and went back to reread things. I remember nerdraging over Battler's having blue eyes in the anime and everything.

As for purple, I like to think it represents Fantasy, with no truth basis, what with it's consistent use in magic scenes and such.

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The point is that if that was the case it would either involve him knowing just because he was the game master.
Since when the fuck was the Witch side obligated to follow Detective rules?

Also, I like how people keep forgetting how Battler saw all these different Kakera in this big epic vision, and shit.

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Well if he wasn't limited to them he could just go: Ushiromiya Natsuhi is not the culprit! and end it right there. Knox's second prevented him from doing that and somehow the golden truth allowed him to bypass this.
Bear in mind that when he first tried that, he wasn't the Gamemaster. Furthermore, well...

Dlanor fucking abuses her power a hell of a lot. "Oh, I'm just going to seal all blue truths about this window. Just because. Don't like it? File a complaint and we'll get to it next year lolololol fuck you."
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Old 2010-11-01, 18:12   Link #18284
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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
Also, I like how people keep forgetting how Battler saw all these different Kakera in this big epic vision, and shit.
I was speaking about the possible interpretations of the golden truth, my version is that its something to do with evidence and understanding the mystery rather than understanding the mystery and bluffing your way out of it. Battler clearly remembered elements from the previous games that caused him to become the GM, I want to believe its putting the pieces together to solve the mystery and those pieces are evidence.
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Old 2010-11-01, 18:40   Link #18285
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I was making that statement in reference to people commenting things like "Oh, so now just because he's Gamemaster he knows shit?"

"Er...no, he's Gamemaster because now he knows shit."
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Old 2010-11-01, 18:51   Link #18286
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Alright, so after formulating my thoughts over dinner, I decided to present my interpretation of the Gold Truth, which is totally bestester than all others forever.

The Golden Truth is nothing but the Truth of Beatrice's heart, but may be either true or false so long as it addresses the core of everything.

In every instance of the Gold Truth being used, it's been something which peeled away or explained part of Beatrice's magical narrative; the world she created to embody her feelings and set up her game.

I guarantee that this corpse is Ushiromiya Kinzo's corpse...!!

This statement is Absolutely True, but it destroys a huge part of Beatrice's narrative; the entire fantasy loses something if Kinzo was never alive to begin with, and the corpse is the final peg that cements the absoluteness of Kinzo's death, as otherwise you can argue around it, as Erika demonstrated.

You used magic to create a golden flower petal inside an overturned cup. It was a splendid bit of magic.

This is even easier. What is said is Absolutely True, you just have to consider Beatrice's definition of magic, which is essentially the same as what we would call "stage magic." And that is exactly what has been performed here. By establishing this with the Golden Truth, another chunk of the Magical World is stripped away, and even more of Beatrice's heart is exposed. We now know exactly what she means when she mentions magic, which explains, well, quite a lot.

I propose that the Gold Truth doesn't matter in terms of syntax, or truthiness, or any other qualifier. It speaks about the truth of Beatrice's inner thoughts and workings, and speaks the truth on what is most important to her, and nothing else. If the Red truth is the truth of objective facts within a "game setting", then gold truth is the truth ABOUT the "game setting", such as the rules of how to actually play the game. Allegorically speaking.
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Old 2010-11-01, 18:55   Link #18287
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Originally Posted by Cao Ni Ma View Post
Well if he wasn't limited to them he could just go: Ushiromiya Natsuhi is not the culprit! and end it right there. Knox's second prevented him from doing that and somehow the golden truth allowed him to bypass this.

That wasn't just about Knox's second although I think they may have used it to counter him. At the time Battler was still human and in episode 5 humans were not allowed to use red in the trial without a witch or somebody who could use it for them. That's why he was booted out. After he became sorcerer he could use red anytime he wanted.
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Old 2010-11-01, 19:24   Link #18288
Cao Ni Ma
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Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
That wasn't just about Knox's second although I think they may have used it to counter him. At the time Battler was still human and in episode 5 humans were not allowed to use red in the trial without a witch or somebody who could use it for them. That's why he was booted out. After he became sorcerer he could use red anytime he wanted.
It was more of it being his last move and having used it and refused caused him to give up. He later re-interpreted the events in the previous game with a few more encouragement from Virgilia and Dlanor using the mystery genre tools that finally caused him to reach the truth and re-ignite his will

Anyways he's challenged by Erika to use a human's truth to solve the Kinzo conundrum so he used the gold.
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Old 2010-11-01, 19:55   Link #18289
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Originally Posted by Leafsnail View Post
Whoever's writing this story clearly doesn't like to think things through too much. Consistency in the court scene is all over the place (burden of evidence switches randomly, final conclusion doesn't make sense, witch solution is ouright denied for no apparent reason and so on).
Well, consider the source and you might begin to understand why he doesn't know how a fair (or even an unfair) trial works.
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Old 2010-11-01, 20:36   Link #18290
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I think overall the golden truth is a "conclusion" to a previous line of thought and that conclusion is basically your personal interpretation of a given scene and can only be beaten by a red that is a new information.

The reason why the Kinzo's corpse couldn't be countered is because Red confirmed instead it couldn't be identifiable (the red was ensuring no counter could be said on the gold).

Bit unrelated, but I guess I was thinking David Lynch, and began to wonder how much is a psychogenic fugue at work within Beatrice's mind.


A bit of a funny thought : If Hachijou wrote arc 3 onward, we can assume that the "canonical ending" of Beatrice's own tale ends with arc 2. What happens in arc 2's end? Beatrice wins, Battler becomes furniture.

See Battlertrice isn't that crazy after all.
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Old 2010-11-01, 20:40   Link #18291
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Originally Posted by Leafsnail View Post
Whoever's writing this story clearly doesn't like to think things through too much. Consistency in the court scene is all over the place (burden of evidence switches randomly, final conclusion doesn't make sense, witch solution is ouright denied for no apparent reason and so on).
I think there's something you do not get. This isn't a fair trial, it's a witch's trial. I do not believe a single Witch's trial that ever occurred really made more sense then what we were shown in arc 5's ending.

The only weird thing is that usually you prove that witches are witches with some logical falacies and superstitious myths and then burn them at the stakes, while in Umineko they're trying to win by proving the opposite.
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Old 2010-11-01, 21:11   Link #18292
Judoh
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Originally Posted by UsagiTenpura View Post
A bit of a funny thought : If Hachijou wrote arc 3 onward, we can assume that the "canonical ending" of Beatrice's own tale ends with arc 2. What happens in arc 2's end? Beatrice wins, Battler becomes furniture.

See Battlertrice isn't that crazy after all.
Another funny thought. It was stated that Beatrice told him the truth about everything when he met with her at the end of episode 2. GM Battler who is on a higher plane than everyone could either be that Battler or a direct response to that Battler.

I can't speak about episode 7 since I haven't read it yet, but I think it makes sense for Battler to not be in that episode very much since he wasn't very involved in episode 3 either.
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Old 2010-11-01, 21:13   Link #18293
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Originally Posted by UsagiTenpura View Post
I think there's something you do not get. This isn't a fair trial, it's a witch's trial. I do not believe a single Witch's trial that ever occurred really made more sense then what we were shown in arc 5's ending.

The only weird thing is that usually you prove that witches are witches with some logical falacies and superstitious myths and then burn them at the stakes, while in Umineko they're trying to win by proving the opposite.
Well the issue isn't that it's an unfair trial. It's that the entire thing is incoherent nonsense to the point that you'd expect to see the Queen of Hearts drop by to prosecute.
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Old 2010-11-01, 21:30   Link #18294
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Well the issue isn't that it's an unfair trial. It's that the entire thing is incoherent nonsense to the point that you'd expect to see the Queen of Hearts drop by to prosecute.
... Now I'm going to wish for a Ryukishi murder story based on the Queen of Hearts. Damn you Renall. Best motive to murder ever.

And I guess that was also sorta my point. They're not even trying to be fair, they're just having a nonsensical laugh in the process of getting rid of Beatrice.
I mean ultimately Beato had lost all interest in the game. It was nothing but a farce to dirty Beatrice's name before finishing her off.
Reality I think the trial should be more seen as LD and Bern's twisted idea of a "show". Overall it felt a lot more like a stage then a court.
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Old 2010-11-01, 21:39   Link #18295
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I love that idea, wish I was less tired to develop it further, maybe I'll try to tomorrow.
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Old 2010-11-01, 22:24   Link #18296
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... Now I'm going to wish for a Ryukishi murder story based on the Queen of Hearts. Damn you Renall. Best motive to murder ever.
Dude, Wonderland no Naku Koro ni needs to happen.

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And I guess that was also sorta my point. They're not even trying to be fair, they're just having a nonsensical laugh in the process of getting rid of Beatrice.
I mean ultimately Beato had lost all interest in the game. It was nothing but a farce to dirty Beatrice's name before finishing her off.
Reality I think the trial should be more seen as LD and Bern's twisted idea of a "show". Overall it felt a lot more like a stage then a court.
Exactly. I mean, shit, EP5 wasn't even a game. Lambdadelta and Bernkastel were basically just pretending to play competitively, when they were on the same side: "Anti-Beatrice for Pro-lulz"
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Old 2010-11-01, 22:30   Link #18297
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I think overall the golden truth is a "conclusion" to a previous line of thought and that conclusion is basically your personal interpretation of a given scene and can only be beaten by a red that is a new information.
I don't think this meshes with EP6's use of the Gold. Beatrice-nee-san's usage of it wasn't in "conclusion" of anything.

Quote:

A bit of a funny thought : If Hachijou wrote arc 3 onward, we can assume that the "canonical ending" of Beatrice's own tale ends with arc 2. What happens in arc 2's end? Beatrice wins, Battler becomes furniture.

See Battlertrice isn't that crazy after all.
EP6 makes it pretty clear that the meta-layers exist in the message bottles, so the "canonical ending" is Battler smashing her face in a table and asking for a cow tits sandwich. I figure the idea was to leave it open-ended because Beatrice has this big thing about roulettes and leaving things unfinished so a miracle could happen, passing the title of "Endless Witch" so that people who understood the tale could write their own additions.

Quote:
Another funny thought. It was stated that Beatrice told him the truth about everything when he met with her at the end of episode 2. GM Battler who is on a higher plane than everyone could either be that Battler or a direct response to that Battler.
But that Battler got nommed by goats. And Beatrice probably just said "magic, lol" since Battler surrendered.

Besides, Sorcerer Battler is clearly the Meta-Battler we've been following, but ascended by gaining new insight. I can't personally discern any meaningful narrative path wherein EP5 Battler just...slips off somehow and a Piece Battler who died ages ago comes out of nowhere.
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Old 2010-11-01, 22:42   Link #18298
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Besides, Sorcerer Battler is clearly the Meta-Battler we've been following, but ascended by gaining new insight. I can't personally discern any meaningful narrative path wherein EP5 Battler just...slips off somehow and a Piece Battler who died ages ago comes out of nowhere.
But WAIT... THAT Battler died skewered by a red sword and was allegedly revived later when he found out the truth. or so we are led to beleive...

But How do we know the Battler that was revived was the SAME Battler???

Last edited by Judoh; 2010-11-01 at 22:55.
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Old 2010-11-01, 23:33   Link #18299
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Because his memories match with the guy who just died, and he revives in that guy's body. Meta-Battler is Meta-Battler is Meta-Battler is Meta-Battler, who is not Piece-Battler, Piece-Battler, Piece-Battler, or Piece-Battler.
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Old 2010-11-01, 23:34   Link #18300
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Could be Suit-Battler though.
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