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Old 2010-11-02, 00:02   Link #18301
AuraTwilight
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And Suit-Battler is? I've seen that label used to refer to different entities, so I want to be absolutely sure.
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Old 2010-11-02, 00:05   Link #18302
TehChron
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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
And Suit-Battler is? I've seen that label used to refer to different entities, so I want to be absolutely sure.
Sorry, Suit-Battlertrice.
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Old 2010-11-02, 00:06   Link #18303
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Originally Posted by UsagiTenpura View Post
Battler's sin isn't the sole factor that brought the tragedy however.
If anything, everything Kinzo is 100 times more responsible then anything Battler ever did. The same time Beatrice said his sin wasn't related to his immediate family she also said that the sin wasn't between Beato and Battler... which is really splitting hair.
Even if we say this is true, Battler's sin is directly related to the tragedy. If Battler did not commit his sin, then THIS tragedy would not exist. That is not to say that if his sin did not exist then there would not be no tragedy.


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Alright, so after formulating my thoughts over dinner, I decided to present my interpretation of the Gold Truth, which is totally bestester than all others forever.

The Golden Truth is nothing but the Truth of Beatrice's heart, but may be either true or false so long as it addresses the core of everything.
Very interesting, I don't think you are far off. Though, I think this might better apply to Beatrice as a metaphor for the rules of the game as opposed to Yasu.
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Old 2010-11-02, 00:14   Link #18304
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It'd be funny if Battler's sin was only related to THE SPECIFIC TRAGEDY of Episode 4 and we've all been trolled.
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Old 2010-11-02, 00:40   Link #18305
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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
It'd be funny if Battler's sin was only related to THE SPECIFIC TRAGEDY of Episode 4 and we've all been trolled.
Maybe, that is what I am sure Bernkastel would have us think. However, I meant the tragedy in each game. I'll just speculate that Yasu activated some bomb to go off at midnight and if Battler did not make amends she would not deactivate it. However, we have people being murdered on the island at the same time and that has nothing to do with Battler's sin. I could be wrong but that is just an example, then again I am almost agreeing with something already proposed. I don't like it, but it does make sense. However, that would not make much of a mystery.
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Old 2010-11-02, 00:51   Link #18306
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There's always the theory that no actual murders, aside from ITALIANO BOMBA, actually occurred.
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Old 2010-11-02, 01:03   Link #18307
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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
There's always the theory that no actual murders, aside from ITALIANO BOMBA, actually occurred.
I know, but I think it is more true that murders actually happened not related to Battler's sin. The red does not state that Battler's sin is the reason why everyone on the island died. If murders actually did take place, I think we can all agree that they and the bomb are completely unrelated.
With some of the red truths we have, we can't believe the bomb is the only element at work because we know people die before the end of the second day. However, one could say the bomb goes off before then.
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Old 2010-11-02, 01:06   Link #18308
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You know what.. I'm starting to think EP3 was penned by Eva. Or at least she hired a ghost writer or something. (Hachijou?)

The meta-level showed her 'taking over' anyways as Eva-Beatrice and bidden to finish the "ceremony". EP7 seems to suggest that Eva really did survive in Rokkenjima Prime. And if her portrayal there is correct then perhaps she really cast herself as the villain in order to spare Ange? It makes sense to me, at least, that she would be the only one who could write with such great detail after only EP1-2 and have an interest in portraying what really happened (albeit as a fantasy story) in a way that matches with Rokkenjima Prime.

Her killing Battler in the story would be a way of letting him hide in the real world? Hmm... well, just an idea for now.
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Old 2010-11-02, 01:14   Link #18309
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Quote:
I know, but I think it is more true that murders actually happened not related to Battler's sin. The red does not state that Battler's sin is the reason why everyone on the island died. If murders actually did take place, I think we can all agree that they and the bomb are completely unrelated.
With some of the red truths we have, we can't believe the bomb is the only element at work because we know people die before the end of the second day. However, one could say the bomb goes off before then.
What Red Truths? Unless stated otherwise, they all pretty much pertain only to the gameboard (read, fictional universe) at hand. You can say "In Ep3, someone shot Nanjo in the face" in red all you want, but unless someone shot the fucker in the face in every possible universe, it doesn't really matter, does it?

Quote:
You know what.. I'm starting to think EP3 was penned by Eva. Or at least she hired a ghost writer or something. (Hachijou?)

The meta-level showed her 'taking over' anyways as Eva-Beatrice and bidden to finish the "ceremony". EP7 seems to suggest that Eva really did survive in Rokkenjima Prime. And if her portrayal there is correct then perhaps she really cast herself as the villain in order to spare Ange? It makes sense to me, at least, that she would be the only one who could write with such great detail after only EP1-2 and have an interest in portraying what really happened (albeit as a fantasy story) in a way that matches with Rokkenjima Prime.

Her killing Battler in the story would be a way of letting him hide in the real world? Hmm... well, just an idea for now.
I've had the idea that Hachijou was someone in deep confidence of one of the survivors for a while now. I usually assumed this person was Battler, but if Eva told Hachijou what happened, and no one else, it'd explain a lot.

Maybe Hachijou even wrote EP3 without her permission.
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Old 2010-11-02, 01:21   Link #18310
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Originally Posted by Smeckledorf View Post
I know, but I think it is more true that murders actually happened not related to Battler's sin. The red does not state that Battler's sin is the reason why everyone on the island died. If murders actually did take place, I think we can all agree that they and the bomb are completely unrelated.
Well, the red says:

妾が今、そなたに思い出すことを要求している罪は、右代宮戦人とベアトリーチェの間のものでは ない。
The sin I am now demanding that you remember is not between Ushiromiya Battler and Beatrice.

右代宮戦人には罪がある。
Ushiromiya Battler has a sin

そなたの罪で、人が死ぬ。
Because of your sin, people die. (This is referring to Battler's sin.)

そなたの罪により、この島の人間が、大勢死ぬ。誰も逃さぬ、全て死ぬ。
Due to your sin, a great many humans on this island die. No one escapes, all die.



This is the end of EP4 when Beatrice started using the red again. In a chapter that was called 'The Cause of the Tragedy'

I think I know what you're getting at and I think we're all looking at it this way. That Battler's sin isn't directly responsible but is kind of an excuse for someone else to commit the murders.

Having said that, I think if we're looking at George being the culprit (my friends just call him 'Culprit' now as his new name)... then... his jealousy against Battler may be a motive for him masterminding the destruction of the family... I believe we can find more of this idea in Judoh's signature.


右代宮戦人がもしも六軒島に戻ってこなかったら、事件は起こらなかった(復唱拒否)
If Ushiromiya Battler had not returned to Rokkenjima , the incident would not have happened. (Repeat in red refused.)


By the way, this is interesting. According to the portrayal of EP7 (and I'm not sure that it's to be trusted 100%) then Beatrice would've had no problems repeating this here. So did she just not want to repeat it because it upset her? Or...

Oh well.. should probably re-read 1-6 anyways...
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Old 2010-11-02, 01:24   Link #18311
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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
I've had the idea that Hachijou was someone in deep confidence of one of the survivors for a while now. I usually assumed this person was Battler, but if Eva told Hachijou what happened, and no one else, it'd explain a lot.

Maybe Hachijou even wrote EP3 without her permission.
That would be a totally evil thing for her to do but then again... I wouldn't put it past her. :3
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Old 2010-11-02, 01:30   Link #18312
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The incident is not defined, so it does not particularly pertain to what I said. "No one escapes, all die" does not mean that Battler caused everyone to die. Another way to think about it is if you believe this red truth is to be taken at face value, then the 1998 world is completely fake. Unless, the only people who do not escape are people who are supposed to die.
And AuraTwilight, it depends how you look at Umineko. If you believe that one murder cannot possibly help you figure out what is going on in others then best of luck to you. People die before the end of the second day, more than once, so I was just saying if the bomb is the only thing killing people then it has to go off before then.
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Old 2010-11-02, 01:43   Link #18313
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And AuraTwilight, it depends how you look at Umineko. If you believe that one murder cannot possibly help you figure out what is going on in others then best of luck to you. People die before the end of the second day, more than once, so I was just saying if the bomb is the only thing killing people then it has to go off before then.
When I said "only the bomb necessarily had to kill anyone" I sort of meant in Rokkenjima Prime, not the six or seven Gameboards we've been shown.
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Old 2010-11-02, 08:16   Link #18314
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The problem with detaching Battler's culpability for the explosion and Battler's culpability for the murders is that we could envision a scenario in which all people on the island are dead prior to the explosion. Certainly it's a possibility within the box. If Battler had nothing to do with the murders, then in at least that particular scenario he would not have actually "caused" any deaths.

A second-order responsibility is fine, though: "Battler did Sin X, this caused Person Y to set the bomb, that caused Person Z to begin killing." So long as Battler remains the ultimate cause.

Note this would shred the ep7 Tea Party to pieces. Battler is not the ultimate cause of Kyrie's rampage, and even if he were, she wouldn't also do it in Lion's world where Battler never returned. Yet Battler being ultimately responsible is necessary to satisfy Beatrice's red.
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I've had the idea that Hachijou was someone in deep confidence of one of the survivors for a while now. I usually assumed this person was Battler, but if Eva told Hachijou what happened, and no one else, it'd explain a lot.

Maybe Hachijou even wrote EP3 without her permission.
Maybe there is no Hachijou at all, and a survivor wrote it directly. We already know he/she is a reclusive author. Even if real-life Ange had a meeting with real-life Hachijou (and we can't be all that sure she did), claiming to be a person doesn't prove you really are them. And if Ange never actually encountered "Hachijou Tohya," her appearance is subject to speculation and AuAu meddling.
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Old 2010-11-02, 13:37   Link #18315
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It's nothing to do with being fair or unfair, though. Even as an unfair trial, it should have vaguely consistent rules. I mean, why ignore the perfectly good "Kinzo is dead at the start of all games" red they already have, especially when "Noone could mistake Kinzo by sight" is apparently still valid?
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Old 2010-11-02, 13:40   Link #18316
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Note this would shred the ep7 Tea Party to pieces. Battler is not the ultimate cause of Kyrie's rampage, and even if he were, she wouldn't also do it in Lion's world where Battler never returned. Yet Battler being ultimately responsible is necessary to satisfy Beatrice's red.
That's one of my main reasons why I think Bern was just being a bitch. How convenient that such a "truth" is available for Bern to show Ange, the person who is pretty much the Gamemaster of EP7 (maybe) and who has a very biased, vested interest in showing Ange such a horrible vision, even if it's not true.

Quote:
Maybe there is no Hachijou at all, and a survivor wrote it directly. We already know he/she is a reclusive author. Even if real-life Ange had a meeting with real-life Hachijou (and we can't be all that sure she did), claiming to be a person doesn't prove you really are them. And if Ange never actually encountered "Hachijou Tohya," her appearance is subject to speculation and AuAu meddling.
Assuming for the sake of argument that Ange actually met the black-haired woman who called herself Hachijou Tohya, yea, I admit she's probably a standin. I like the idea that she's a confidant of a survivor, speaking on their behalf. Probably even Battler.

And if she is Battler's spokesperson, what if Hachijou was a grownup Yasu? The ages seem to match.
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Old 2010-11-02, 13:51   Link #18317
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Meta-world, red truth and trolling aside, aren't all the arcs just written works in the world of 1998? The only reason anyone thinks there were any murders at all was because of the message bottles; the first two arcs, which the remaining arcs are based on. Considering this, how do we know there is any truth in any of the arcs at all? especially for the latter arcs, which are written by hachijou; hell, you could even say that Battler's sin is something that hachijou made up herself, since it is in the fourth arc, and nothing hints at him having a sin in the first two arcs.
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Old 2010-11-02, 13:54   Link #18318
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Originally Posted by Pikumin View Post
The only reason anyone thinks there were any murders at all was because of the message bottles
As far as I know, Ange always assumed Eva was behind the crimes, and not just after the first message was found. (which implies she always thought it was murders)
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Old 2010-11-02, 14:05   Link #18319
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It's nothing to do with being fair or unfair, though. Even as an unfair trial, it should have vaguely consistent rules. I mean, why ignore the perfectly good "Kinzo is dead at the start of all games" red they already have, especially when "Noone could mistake Kinzo by sight" is apparently still valid?
It's a case of "Me making up rules, including rules that contradict the rules, is allowed by the rules".
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Old 2010-11-02, 15:06   Link #18320
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The incident is not defined, so it does not particularly pertain to what I said. "No one escapes, all die" does not mean that Battler caused everyone to die. Another way to think about it is if you believe this red truth is to be taken at face value, then the 1998 world is completely fake. Unless, the only people who do not escape are people who are supposed to die.
I've been thinking pretty much the same thing from back then. In once case it is said that everyone dies from the tragedy. In the other case, we may have at least one survivor who escaped the murders of that day. So how can this be reconciled?

It's possible for both to be true if the Tragedy is not the murders during those two days but some event that people were caught up in that winds up killing people prematurely?

If you look at what happened to Eva, she became the head of the family and it's possible the story in EP3 was to point out that her life was ruined. The cost of becoming the head of a family surrounded by greedy sycophants (in her case though, the Sumaderas?)

Before EP7, I took this to mean that Battler had some responsibility to the headship of the family, but after EP7... hmmm... could this mean Beatrice intended to pass heirship to Battler, in her own staged version of the Epitaph? If Kinzo cheated, she could too, right?
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