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Old 2010-10-31, 10:17   Link #81
Himeji
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Originally Posted by CrowKenobi View Post
It has been going nowhere for a while now...

I think you and aeromono have discussed whatever idea you've had to death and are now finally starting to loop back to the beginning, so let's end this here
You're right, it has been done to death by now - which is why I remarked that it's not going anywhere. I don't want to be caught up in an infinite loop like poor Sora-chan in the Kami nomi "Crayon" game, repeating the same things again and again
So I said I'll end this now and pass up on any further replies.
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Old 2010-10-31, 11:25   Link #82
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Color me unsurprised.
Calling me a hypocrite because you missed a comma and an interrogative sentence, telling me to read wikipedia pages in japanese instead of making the point directly even though they agree with me (and be condescending about it to boot), then never explaining why... Perhaps someone else will recognize what these symptoms mean. But enough has been said, and no obscene language was used. Peace.
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Old 2010-11-01, 04:47   Link #83
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Hmmm. Seemed to have walked into something here. Anyway, so, Kirino feels like Kyousuke abandoned her, eh? That's an aspect of their relationship I'm really interested in now. I hope they go more into that next episode.
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Old 2010-11-01, 05:54   Link #84
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Hmmm. Seemed to have walked into something here. Anyway, so, Kirino feels like Kyousuke abandoned her, eh? That's an aspect of their relationship I'm really interested in now. I hope they go more into that next episode.
It's probably not because of her achievements - he only found out about her sports and grades sometime between discovering her hobby and the confrontation with their father...... if I'm not mistaken.
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Old 2010-11-01, 13:37   Link #85
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It's probably not because of her achievements - he only found out about her sports and grades sometime between discovering her hobby and the confrontation with their father...... if I'm not mistaken.
Would never have been that in the 1st place. Would have been something that happened along time ago.
Most likely some sorta misunderstanding or incident.

Well I know for sure the wait to find out what deal is, is gonna kill me!
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Old 2010-11-01, 16:42   Link #86
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It's probably not because of her achievements - he only found out about her sports and grades sometime between discovering her hobby and the confrontation with their father...... if I'm not mistaken.
It's not that unusual. Some siblings live their own lives without any concern for their other siblings. The way I worded it sounds a little cold, but some really see it awkward and unnecessary to stick their nose into their sibling's business unless they're forced to.

Kirino did well enough on her own before, so Kyousuke probably didn't feel like he was needed at all. Their relationship goes sour because they never talk up untill the beginning of the series.
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Old 2010-11-01, 17:59   Link #87
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I have a theory as to part of the reason why Kirino is so into the "Little Sister" eroge games, and I think that this would be a good thread to share it.

The sense I'm getting from this anime is that Kirino's family isn't a terribly loving one, at least not beyond an implicit level.

Kirino started tearing up when she stated her displeasure over not being closer to her brother for a long time.

Her father strikes me as a generally decent and caring man, but not a very warm one. There's definitely a stern, cold quality to him and his interactions with his children. At the very least, he wasn't close enough to his daughter to uncover her long-held Otaku hobby (before the events of episode 3), which strongly suggests that his presence in her life is usually a light one.

Her mother has not left me with much of an impression of her either way thus far.


This could very well leave Kirino feeling unloved at home, and somewhat emotionally needy.

So, Kirino plays games about loving little sisters (or loving lolicon girls in general), and she finds it uplifting to see young girls (like she used to be, and in some ways still is) being loved in the game. As the player of the game, she is able to roleplay loving the female game character just as she wished that she had been loved. Whether or not there's any sexual element to this remains to be seen, but even without that element, one can see the catharsis and emotional healing that Kirino might get from this and these games.


Now, this is just speculation on my part, as I've not read the source material. What do my fellow fans think?
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Old 2010-11-01, 18:03   Link #88
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Defiantly well put speculation here Triple_R


Now that her brother is able to be trusted, and she doesn't feel lonely towards him anymore. She might even be playing as a little sister from one of her games, but not going to deep into the eroge part of her But thats just some silly speculation I have on how Kirino is going as of now.
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Old 2010-11-01, 18:58   Link #89
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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
The sense I'm getting from this anime is that Kirino's family isn't a terribly loving one, at least not beyond an implicit level.
I didn't quite get that impression. It might be true for the father only, and perhaps also somewhat for Kyousuke, but not for the mother.

Spoiler for saving space for rest of reply:
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Old 2010-11-01, 19:05   Link #90
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Originally Posted by Himeji View Post
I think that's the main reason why she's playing those imouto games - she wants to be that close to her brother as the imoutos in the game. That does not mean neccessarily that she also is deeply in love with him and would want an intimate relationship with him, just that (at least) she is missing being close to her brother.
There is some evidence to that as well.. In one of those games Kirino ordered that Kyousuke to play and finish, it mostly involved the little girl and her brother.. Hint maybe? Or just a coincidence?

Quote:
Decent? Hardly
Caring? It seems he cares about Kirino a bit at least (although he doesn't seem to show that), but about Kyousuke? No. He never seemed to have cared much about him in the first place, and after Kyousuke "revealed" himself as an otaku, he stopped caring for him altogether.
He still cares for Kyousuke a little bit.... In episode 5, when Kyousuke just went mad and told his father about the issue that occured. His father still helped, even though he thinks that he is a "worthless son" also he has sorta a "Tsundere-Style" of being a father...

Quote:
Yes, stern and cold - that's definitely fitting the father.
To get things done.. Yes indeed..

Quote:
From what little we saw of her, she seems to be a quite nice and tolerant person. When Kyousuke comes home, she warns him about his father being in a really foul modd, and when he asks her to leave him alone with his father, she willingly agrees. In his talk then, he mentions that his mother had seen his porn, and didn't have a problem with that at all.
I was surprised to no limit when Kyousuke said that his mom looked at his porn and thought nothing about it.......

Quote:
As I said, didn't quite get that impression.
Before Kyousuke was involved in this case, her hobby was generally alienating her from everyone in the family. Her father never talks to her, Kyousuke was alienating Kirino from his life, the mother was just there for some moments. The Otaku friends were not even introduced yet. All she had was her little sisters, and her modeling friends. No one knew Kirino as the side that she was hiding, the side of being an Otaku. Even though she gets praised for her other side, she still feels lonely that no one else knows about her Otakuness.
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Old 2010-11-01, 19:18   Link #91
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Originally Posted by Himeji View Post
I didn't quite get that impression. It might be true for the father only, and perhaps also somewhat for Kyousuke, but not for the mother.

Spoiler for saving space for rest of reply:
Passivity isn't admirable, and the mother is pretty much entirely passive. She seems to tolerate everything, but she also doesn't take an active role in anyone's lives either. She cooks and cleans the house -- pretty much a stock housewife. While the mother isn't as strict as the father, she's definitely not a friend or a confidant to Kirino either.

Until Kyousuke discovered her eroge hobby, Kirino was not close to anyone in the family. She talked with her modeling and school friends, and that's about it.
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Old 2010-11-01, 19:57   Link #92
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There is some evidence to that as well.. In one of those games Kirino ordered that Kyousuke to play and finish, it mostly involved the little girl and her brother.. Hint maybe? Or just a coincidence?
Very doubtful - most likely no coincidence, but a carefully chosen game.

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He still cares for Kyousuke a little bit.... In episode 5, when Kyousuke just went mad and told his father about the issue that occured. His father still helped, even though he thinks that he is a "worthless son" also he has sorta a "Tsundere-Style" of being a father...
I'm not so sure if he looked up that report because he cared still a bit about Kyousuke. It could just very well be that he looked it up just out of curiosity, then found out that it's actually quite half-assed, and therefore re-adjusted his opinion about Kyousuke somewhat and decided to help him a bit.

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I was surprised to no limit when Kyousuke said that his mom looked at his porn and thought nothing about it.......
After the short conversation her mother had with him, and the impression I got of her from that, it didn't surprise me much.

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Before Kyousuke was involved in this case, her hobby was generally alienating her from everyone in the family. Her father never talks to her, Kyousuke was alienating Kirino from his life, the mother was just there for some moments. The Otaku friends were not even introduced yet. All she had was her little sisters, and her modeling friends. No one knew Kirino as the side that she was hiding, the side of being an Otaku. Even though she gets praised for her other side, she still feels lonely that no one else knows about her Otakuness.
It's debatable if her hobby alienated her, or if she was already alienated before and picked up that hobby precisely to overcome that alienation.
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Old 2010-11-01, 19:58   Link #93
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Originally Posted by Shadow5YA View Post
Passivity isn't admirable, and the mother is pretty much entirely passive. She seems to tolerate everything, but she also doesn't take an active role in anyone's lives either. She cooks and cleans the house -- pretty much a stock housewife. While the mother isn't as strict as the father, she's definitely not a friend or a confidant to Kirino either.

Until Kyousuke discovered her eroge hobby, Kirino was not close to anyone in the family. She talked with her modeling and school friends, and that's about it.
Agreed. I studied some Psychology in University, and its there that I learned about the four styles of parenting.

Now, any individual parent's parenting style won't necessarily fit nice and tidy into one of the four categories, but they do tend to at least lean more towards one of the four.

Kirino's mother strikes me as having a Permissive, or even Uninvolved, style in her parenting.

It's important, I think, to remember that a parent's first job is not to be their children's friend, but to be their children's parent. A parent that literally tolerates everything would be a bad parent. Parents should set at least some guidelines for their children.

A good parent avoids both extremes on the Authoritarian/Permissive scale. Sadly, a strong case can be made that Kirino's parents occupy the two opposite extreme ends on that scale. Her father leans a bit too strongly towards the Authoritarian parenting style, in my opinion.



Spoiler for saving space for rest of reply:
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Old 2010-11-01, 20:07   Link #94
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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
He cares a lot about Kirino. If he didn't, he wouldn't care what hobbies she had.

He doesn't appear to care much about his son, though, which is disconcerting.
He may not care about Kyousuke as much because he thinks that Kyousuke is just living out his normal life, nothing much for the parents to be concerned about. The father probably thinks that Kyousuke will not get into troubles.. Well that was until Kyousuke told him that he loved eroge. Thats when he sorta got concerned about Kyousuke, even after the punch and calling him a "worthless son" he doesn't give a cold shoulder to him. He atleast replies with the comment "About your future?" which means he cares what happens to him. Even giving the curiosity of looking up incidents that was put to him by Kyousuke for him to clear the tension between Ayase and Kirino. Of course this is my silly opinion

Now back to Kirino. Ever since I watched episode 5, I've been curious about the tension between Kirino and Kyousuke in the past, which lead her to not even talk to him until he found out about her Otaku games. A flashback or anything would be good.
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Old 2010-11-01, 20:23   Link #95
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Now back to Kirino. Ever since I watched episode 5, I've been curious about the tension between Kirino and Kyousuke in the past, which lead her to not even talk to him until he found out about her Otaku games. A flashback or anything would be good.
One of the key points of the story that I hope gets expanded on in the anime (which I imagine would be near the very end anyway). I actually think that this ordeal is the heart of the whole story and the "keep the otaku life a secret" scheme was just a roundabout way to get to it. But I digress.
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Old 2010-11-02, 15:06   Link #96
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Now back to Kirino. Ever since I watched episode 5, I've been curious about the tension between Kirino and Kyousuke in the past, which lead her to not even talk to him until he found out about her Otaku games. A flashback or anything would be good.
They could have never talked because neither one of them took the initiative before. At the beginning of the novel, Kyousuke said how it was his intention to keep things the way they were, with both of them ignoring each other and minding their own business. It seemed like one thing just lead to another after Kyousuke found the eroge disk.

There doesn't necessarily have to be a fight for them not to talk to one another.
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Old 2010-11-02, 16:18   Link #97
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They could have never talked because neither one of them took the initiative before. At the beginning of the novel, Kyousuke said how it was his intention to keep things the way they were, with both of them ignoring each other and minding their own business. It seemed like one thing just lead to another after Kyousuke found the eroge disk.

There doesn't necessarily have to be a fight for them not to talk to one another.
There just had to be a reason for Kyousuke to even think about that.

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One of the key points of the story that I hope gets expanded on in the anime (which I imagine would be near the very end anyway). I actually think that this ordeal is the heart of the whole story and the "keep the otaku life a secret" scheme was just a roundabout way to get to it. But I digress.
Well I do hope it eventually gets into the anime as well, if it doesn't get into the anime, there better be a season 2 or something like that...
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Old 2010-11-02, 21:12   Link #98
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Kirino's mother strikes me as having a Permissive, or even Uninvolved, style in her parenting.
We can't really say from what little we saw of her... however, she seemed rather like the tolerant and caring type to me rather than the "do whatever you want, I don't care" type, as you put it.

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Her father leans a bit too strongly towards the Authoritarian parenting style, in my opinion. ... His parenting style does leave something to be desired, in my opinion.
Not just a bit, alot too much. In being so overly cold and severe, he's just alienating his kids. His style does leave quite a lot to be desired.

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He does have a heart.
That remains to be seen... I'm not convinced of that yet.

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The father probably thinks that Kyousuke will not get into troubles.
In the very opposite, the father seems to think that Kyousuke is *nothing but* trouble... and when Kyousuke then "confesses" to be an otaku, he sees his prejudice confirmed.

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He at least replies with the comment "About your future?" which means he cares what happens to him.
I understood that quite differently: the father thought that Kyousuke came to him because he is deeply concerned about having been called a "worthless son" and the beating, and is worried about his future now and will try to make amends. That's why he said "About your future?".
What Kyousuke then says is quite the opposite of what he expected though, hence the father's reaction of spitting his tea all over the floor.

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Now back to Kirino. Ever since I watched episode 5, I've been curious about the tension between Kirino and Kyousuke in the past, which lead her to not even talk to him until he found out about her Otaku games. A flashback or anything would be good.
Yes, their relationship seemed to have been totally shot before... an explaining flashback would be nice there.
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Old 2010-11-03, 23:57   Link #99
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Well it shouldn't be too much of surprise. Kirino and Kyosuke's father is a high-ranking police officer as the established fact from manga and more importantly the novel.

As for parenting style. His father is definitely authoritive but at same time it is a split image of a stereo-typical Asian father. The traditional view of family in East Asia region (China, Korea, Japan, Taiwan,etc) is that the father is the bread-maker that provides the family while the mother is in charge of all in-house affair including parenting. Fathers usually don't involve in parenting unless something big happens and in good-cop/bad-cop senario, the father is always expect to be the bad-cop. As for Kyosuke's role, older sibling is expected to protect and act as shield for younger sibling while the younger sibling respects and assist older in anyway he/she can. (which Kirino is not)

All this is sprung from Confucian teaching of the Five Relationship of Hierarchy: Sibling(older=>younger), father/son, lord/vassal, husband/wife, and friendship, with friendship being the only relation that had equal responsibility.


As some already stated, the issue here is that Kirino's father think ACG is bad for child growth and has always refrain from buying them for Kyosuke and Kirino. Kyosuke is argument is logical and begins with emotional plea for Kirino's happiness when the father countered bad with that ACG is a hobby that can negatively impact child growth. Kyosuke countered back with Kirino's achievement.

Now the anime adaption deleted a few lines here ignore the scenes where they mention all those achievement were from elementary school to recently. Those added information made the situation more clear in novel. Kyosuke's logic here is to illustrate that ACG did not negatively impact Kirino's performance. She is still the same old Kirino with good grades and strong athletic performance.

The picture with Kuroneko and Saori is setup for later when he pulled out his father's scrap book of Kirino. The father originally had same view on modeling and fashion and ends up being secretly proud of Kirino's modeling job after he did he own research. Kyosuke point out that the two event were the same, that the father should judge ACG just by its cover and that ACG is the same as Kirino's modeling job in which both put smiles to Kirino's face.

This cause the father to accept (or at least partially condone) the presence of ACG. the issue now become the R18 Eroge.

Keep in mind, R18 is NOT ILLEGAL in Japan, it was only a rating system similar to parental guidance or ESRB in US. But nevertheless a parent typically will not allow (at least not openly) and over adult materials for a 14 years old. This is where Kyosuke decide to put up on himself to take the blame because he can't spin it any other way to talk the father into accepting Kirino playing eroge and its HIS responsibility to protect his little sister. Keep in mind, the anime did a masterful job in depict this scene from novel. The choice Kyosuke was given includes HELP KIRINO, but he DID NOT SELECT IT. Instead Kyosuke picked HELP IMOUTO [LITTLE SISTER] which shows that he didn't do this because it's Kirino, but because it's his little sister.

In the end the father accept the ACG part of Kirino but is still kept in dark (at least on surface) about the eroge.



As for reason why Kyosuke and Kirino's relation is this bad. That is a question that seems to be central mystery for the series, at least in original light novel as Kyosuke himself did not know how they grew apart and stated numerous times that they weren't like this before and noted that it's nostalgic whenever Kirino show her "cute" face. Although the novel has implied that certain character was a big reason why......
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Old 2010-11-04, 12:09   Link #100
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... All this is sprung from Confucian teaching ...
Exactly. I mentioned that already at an earlier time.

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