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Old 2010-11-05, 17:10   Link #5061
Judoh
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Quote:
Originally Posted by einhorn303 View Post
So I guess a more accurate way of putting that forward is:

All of the gameboards shown before us are all hypothetical scenario that may or may not have happened. Therefore we have no certain proof of what happened Rokkenjima because if these were all hypothetical scenario that may or may not have happened, no clue of any "real" event was ever presented.
WTF? Seriously. Where in the statements "I don't deny the Rokkenjima event happened" "there is a real rokkenjima called Rokkenjima prime" do you people get "no clue for any real event was ever presented"?

This leap in logic has no fucking starting point.
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Old 2010-11-05, 17:11   Link #5062
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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
This doesn't work; I'm pretty sure "Human" and "Person" are the same in the Japanese, but even if they're not, "Human" and "Person" have been used exactly the same in every other situation, ever. You have a bad habit of taking the Red either too literally, or trying to apply special rules to certain reds in order to justify your way of thinking.
I've heard from people who speak Japanese that, yes, they are different terms.

The Red must be taken literally. To quote:
The red only tells the truth.
The red truth is simply truth, and there is no need to provide evidence, proof, or room for a counter-argument!!
You can't trust anything, you can't trust any words that aren't red...!!


Quote:
Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
Here's a more likely scenario. "Hey guys, I'm Erika, a character given the assignment of 18th person by the Gamemaster." "We're sorry, but even though it is true you were given that assignment by your creator, there are only 17 people on the island. Deal with it."
That's not what Erika said. She said she was "the 18th human on Rokkenjima." Therefore, she is a human on Rokkenjima. She said nothing about being a character given an assignment. If anything is "trying to apply special rules to certain reds," it's taking what the Red Truth literally says and interpreting it to say something completely different.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
The Red Truth is something which is, one way or another, absolutely true we're told, right? Leaving aside the rules of this Red Truth, and it's specific workings, the person who introduced the Red Truth and defined it's powers IS NOT ACTUALLY A WITCH, and MAGIC CANNOT DO SOMETHING THAT IS NOT POSSIBLE BY HUMAN MEANS.

Beatrice is a human being. We know this, even if we haven't been able to explicitly prove it; it's the premise for our win condition. If Beatrice is a human being, how in the fuck can she just conveniently whip out some magical power that is magically compelled to be absolutely right all the time? She can't.
Magic doesn't exist on the gameboard or in reality, but it does exist in the meta world.
Notice that there are never any red truths spoken about the meta world. It doesn't hold up to any sort of logic or consistency, and can have any sort of magic: it's a hypothetical world of the author's imagination.

About the win condition: Battler has to disprove the existance of witches on the gameboard (and a very specific gameboard of that island, on those two days), not in the meta world. He's quite explicit about this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
The power of the Red Truth works because of what she says: That is, she only repeats things she knows are true from her own life experience (Maria's past, for instance), or she speaks about the Gameboards, which are fictions she (or a higher plane author, it doesn't matter) wrote herself, as they exist as stories in the "real world" of 1998. Of course she can speak about the truths of AN IMAGINARY WORLD SHE FUCKING INVENTED, and though these gameboards exist to help us discern the truth between them, these Red Truths do not necessarily speak of the reality of Rokkenjima Prime unless we are explicitly told so or we can prove they do. The Red Truth is no different from JK Rowling saying Dumbledore is Gay.
The higher plane author of all episodes is ryukishi07.

I find it difficult to except that there is a "Rokkenjima Prime" that is a "more real" than the gameboards. They're all equally fiction, written by ryukishi07. If JK Rowling says that Dumbledore is gay, then yes, that makes Dumbledore's homosexuality an absolutely truth in the world of Harry Potter. In the same sense, everything ryukishi07 writes in red is an absolute truth in the world of Umineko.

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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
Hell, Beatrice even mentions using magic in Red when Ange tries to get Maria out of the Golden Land
Once again, she used magic in the meta world. Magic exists in the meta world, but in the gameboard or "reality." So the red truth isn't contradicted there. Anyways, if you don't trust the red truth of ryukishi07, then there's no point to any discussion about the "truth" of Umineko. Without the absolute truth provided by an infallible red, we're just talking about what we want to be the truth, or what we "believe" to be the truth, not what is the truth.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
...meaning that in the most literal sense, the Red Truth is not absolutely reliable. It is treated as valid only because the players and readers involved decided to trust the speaker. Lambdadelta all but affirms this.
This should be in blue, not red.
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Old 2010-11-05, 17:12   Link #5063
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
WTF? Seriously. Where in the statement "I don't deny the Rokkenjima event happened" do you people get "no clue for any real event was ever presented"?

This leap in logic has no fucking starting point.
I meant to say "no clue of absolute truth." Of course there are lots of "clues," but they'd all be hearsay taken from the subjective perspective of the people telling the stories.
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Old 2010-11-05, 17:14   Link #5064
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A clue of absolute truth doesn't exist. Any factor you see in a mystery novel might be just a red herring if you don't trust the author enough.
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Old 2010-11-05, 17:25   Link #5065
Judoh
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Quote:
Originally Posted by einhorn303 View Post
That's not what Erika said. She said she was "the 18th human on Rokkenjima." Therefore, she is a human on Rokkenjima.
And? It's the same as these red

My name is Ushiromiya Battler
I am the Golden Witch, Beatrice

of course later Battler's identity was questioned.
And Beatrice can't really be a witch she's human so Golden witch is a title

Erika's title would just happen to be 'the 18th human on Rokkenjima'. When on the real Rokkenjima no 18th person ever arrived. Simple.
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Old 2010-11-05, 17:37   Link #5066
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
A clue of absolute truth doesn't exist. Any factor you see in a mystery novel might be just a red herring if you don't trust the author enough.
And I trust the author. If I didn't, there'd be no point to debating what the truth of Umineko is.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
And? It's the same as these red

My name is Ushiromiya Battler
I am the Golden Witch, Beatrice

of course later Battler's identity was questioned.
And Beatrice can't really be a witch she's human so Golden witch is a title

Erika's title would just happen to be 'the 18th human on Rokkenjima'. When on the real Rokkenjima no 18th person ever arrived. Simple.
I get the title theory, but in the 5th game it says (after Erika arrives):

"In that case, what happens to the number of people on this island right now?"
"Of course, it's a plus 1 over the previous number. But don't worry. Furudo Erika only increases it by one person.."

The arrival of Furudo Erika increases the amount of people on the island by one. Independently of the "18th human" statement, that implies that Erika is a person who existed on the island.

The red truth about Battler's name and his biological heritage don't contradict each other. He can be legally named Ushiromiya Battler, and still not be Rudolf's son. When kids are adopted, they're still allowed to use the last name of their foster parents.

Regarding "I am the Golden Witch, Beatrice:" If she spoke it on the meta world, she might still be a witch in the meta world but not in the gameboard of "reality."
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Old 2010-11-05, 17:40   Link #5067
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Originally Posted by einhorn303 View Post
The arrival of Furudo Erika increases the amount of people on the island by one. Independently of the "18th human" statement, that implies that Erika is a person who existed on the island.
She increases it by X plus 1 and she only does so in forgeries that go by the 'premise' that she drifted there after falling off a boat called the Eternal Maid II. It even says this much in her death TIPS for episode 6.

Quote:
Originally Posted by einhorn303 View Post
Regarding "I am the Golden Witch, Beatrice:" If she spoke it on the meta world, she might still be a witch in the meta world but not in the gameboard of "reality."
That's seriously no different than admitting you beleive she's a witch. You're on the wrong track.
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Old 2010-11-05, 17:43   Link #5068
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Quote:
Originally Posted by einhorn303 View Post
I've heard from people who speak Japanese that, yes, they are different terms.

The Red must be taken literally. To quote:
The red only tells the truth.
The red truth is simply truth, and there is no need to provide evidence, proof, or room for a counter-argument!!
You can't trust anything, you can't trust any words that aren't red...!!
It's cute how you think this actually means anything.
1) The Red only tells the truth. This is true, but it doesn't mean it's absolute. It's just that Beatrice can't lie in it, and she can make truthful statements about a work of fiction. Besides, this is circular reasoning. It's like saying the Bible is absolutely true because the Bible says so. If you decide to trust the Bible, sure. The Red only has validity because everyone has agreed to give it such.

2) This doesn't really add anything.

3) We know this isn't EXACTLY true. The Gold and the White have all been used to reliably tell us truthful things. It's just that these do not carry a guarantee like the Red does.


Quote:
That's not what Erika said. She said she was "the 18th human on Rokkenjima." Therefore, she is a human on Rokkenjima. She said nothing about being a character given an assignment. If anything is "trying to apply special rules to certain reds," it's taking what the Red Truth literally says and interpreting it to say something completely different.
I am Erika, the 18th human on Rokkenjima. Alright, but Erika doesn't exist. She's also the detective, but she doesn't exist. Just like how Sakutarou is Maria's precious friend even though he is not real. You really need to think in layers, here. If we assume that all Red Truths are universally valid in all contexts, then nothing will ever make sense, because they blatantly contradict each other at times due to being in different contexts.

Quote:
Magic doesn't exist on the gameboard or in reality, but it does exist in the meta world.
Prove it.

I say it doesn't, because the Meta-World scenes are demonstratably scenes in a written work of fiction just like the Gameboard, and Beatrice is not a witch. I mean, sure, I guess you're right in that within the narrative of the Meta-World, magic happens, like how magic happens in Middle Earth, but that would only be conceding the point of mine that the Red Truths can apply to fictions without speaking about Objective Reality, or you could say that Magic is something else, such as "stage magic", but that's also conceding the same point of the Red Truth not having to be literal so long as it is still true.

The Red cannot always be literal all the time. It's not possible.

Quote:
Notice that there are never any red truths spoken about the meta world. It doesn't hold up to any sort of logic or consistency, and can have any sort of magic: it's a hypothetical world of the author's imagination.
Er...except, yes, there are reds spoken about the Meta-World.

This is my Golden Land
A world where magic that isn't mine certainly cannot exist
Don't leave me all alone!!!
The witch before your eyes stole away my whole family, even you, Onii-chan...! Finish her...!!
Then, take your family back!!
And then, .........come home to me......!!!
You are all alone on this island. And of course, I am not you. Yet I am here, now, and will kill you.
It's possible to show a different truth by using a different interpretation!!
hi-hhihihhihihihihihihihihihihi
Come on, Ushiromiya Battler, kneel
*cackle*cackle*cackle*hihihihihihihihihihihyahyahy ahhahhahahahaha-hhahahahhahhahhahhahhahhahha


There's a few Red Truths on the Meta-World for you. I also threw in, as a bonus, some Red Truths that were either requests, laughter, or other statements that literally have no bearing on true or false one way or another, and I also chucked in some Reds that are literally impossible unless you use metaphor.


Quote:
About the win condition: Battler has to disprove the existance of witches on the gameboard (and a very specific gameboard of that island, on those two days), not in the meta world. He's quite explicit about this.
Agreed, but Beatrice is still not a witch.

Quote:
The higher plane author of all episodes is ryukishi07.
Though inbetween that plane and the Gameboards, we also have Hachijou Tohya, and the human identity of Beatrice who wrote the original two message bottles.

Quote:
I find it difficult to except that there is a "Rokkenjima Prime" that is a "more real" than the gameboards. They're all equally fiction, written by ryukishi07. If JK Rowling says that Dumbledore is gay, then yes, that makes Dumbledore's homosexuality an absolutely truth in the world of Harry Potter. In the same sense, everything ryukishi07 writes in red is an absolute truth in the world of Umineko.
So, then, what's the problem, here? We KNOW that the Gameboards are fiction. Someone in Ange's world of 1998 wrote them. Ange, and other people in her world, can read them on the internet, complete with scenes that use "red ink" to clarify parts. There's even a group of Witch Hunters that debate what's going on just like we do.

The Gameboards and probably the Meta-World are fictions written by humans. There is only ONE truth of what really happened on Rokkenjima, or else the idea of trying to uncover the truth of what happened is an absolutely fucking meaningless statement. How are we expected to deduce what really happened if there's no valid universe? Did the universe break into many timelines for two days, then merged back together for Ange's future, or some nonsense?

Quote:
Once again, she used magic in the meta world. Magic exists in the meta world, but in the gameboard or "reality." So the red truth isn't contradicted there. Anyways, if you don't trust the red truth of ryukishi07, then there's no point to any discussion about the "truth" of Umineko. Without the absolute truth provided by an infallible red, we're just talking about what we want to be the truth, or what we "believe" to be the truth, not what is the truth.
The gameboard is not Reality. Erika uses Red on the Gameboard, and people can be forced to act in magical ways through the Detective's Authority. Time can be stopped indefinitely, or Gameboards (universes, according to you) can be destroyed by Logic Errors. Are you proposing that someone making a logical contradiction on some island somewhere can destroy an entire fucking universe? Holy shit, Erika. I'm not saying there isn't an absolute truth, and I'm not saying I don't trust the red truth. I'm just saying the two aren't necessarily the exact same thing.

Though it's funny you should talk about us arguing about what is the truth subjectively, because that's exactly what we're supposed to be doing. Did the thing about multiple truths and catboxes not get through?

Quote:
This should be in blue, not red.
It's a true statement, though.

Quote:
Regarding "I am the Golden Witch, Beatrice:" If she spoke it on the meta world, she might still be a witch in the meta world but not in the gameboard of "reality."
But you just said yourself that the Meta-World is the world of an author's imagination. Are you conceding that the Red Truth CAN comment on imaginary fictions in someone's mind? Huh, funny that. It's almost like you're contradicting yourself.

Quote:
Six years ago for me, no person called Beatrice existed.
Oh yea, I'd also like to bring up this red truth. Do you think that Beatrice's human self is only six years old? If not, you must concede that the Red Truth cannot be literal, that it can incorporate metaphor, or that it can speak on the context of fictions, such as imaginary personas.

Either way, your line of thinking won't hold up by the very Red Truth you hold in such high regard.
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Old 2010-11-05, 17:58   Link #5069
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Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
She increases it by X plus 1 and she only does so in forgeries that go by the 'premise' that she drifted there after falling off a boat called the Eternal Maid II. It even says this much in her death TIPS for episode 6.
That doesn't really prove anything, if you're using the argument of:

"Forgers who know of this accident often theorize that she drifted onto Rokkenjima...." - Therefore, she didn't drift onto Rokkenjima.

This has the form of:

"Forgers often theorize that [X]" - Therefore, [not X].
Which leads to an abundance of logical absurdities

"Forgers often theorize that people died on Rokkenjima." - Therefore, nobody died on Rokkenjima.

"Forgers often theorize that Rokkenjima is an island." - Therefore, Rokkenjima isn't an island.


Secoondly, her life tips say that: "On October 4, 1986, she drifted to Rokkenjima. The Ushiromiya family welcomed her as a guest. She managed to drift to the island unharmed..." How do you determine which has precedence over the other?


Thirdly, these TIPS aren't the red truth and there's no way of know if they're simply misdirection/lies or not.
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Old 2010-11-05, 18:06   Link #5070
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Quote:
That doesn't really prove anything, if you're using the argument of:

"Forgers who know of this accident often theorize that she drifted onto Rokkenjima...." - Therefore, she didn't drift onto Rokkenjima.
And she didn't. She DID, however, in two fictional stories that contain those "red inks" (and Hachijou, who wrote EPs 5 and 6, says there's red inks in her stories).

Unless you want to argue that someone with a psychic connection to the Meta World, the ability to say the Red Truth in the real world, the abilities of super hearing and crap like that existed on Rokkenjima, those Red Truths can only apply to a fiction.

Quote:
This has the form of:

"Forgers often theorize that [X]" - Therefore, [not X].
Which leads to an abundance of logical absurdities

"Forgers often theorize that people died on Rokkenjima." - Therefore, nobody died on Rokkenjima.

"Forgers often theorize that Rokkenjima is an island." - Therefore, Rokkenjima isn't an island.
This is the stupidest attempt at a logical fallacy ever.

"Forgers theorize X" so X isn't true, does not mean "forgers theorize Y", so Y isn't true. I don't know if you know this, but people can theorize things and be correct. Shocking, I know.

Quote:
Secoondly, her life tips say that: "On October 4, 1986, she drifted to Rokkenjima. The Ushiromiya family welcomed her as a guest. She managed to drift to the island unharmed..." How do you determine which has precedence over the other?
The ones that tell us more truthful information and don't involve magic happening in real life.
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Old 2010-11-05, 18:15   Link #5071
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Originally Posted by einhorn303 View Post
That doesn't really prove anything, if you're using the argument of:

"Forgers who know of this accident often theorize that she drifted onto Rokkenjima...." - Therefore, she didn't drift onto Rokkenjima.
They admit there is no evidence that says she did. They just like to think she did. and Who says I have to prove anything?

Besides the author confirmed the Rokkenjima explosion part of that TIP and backed it up with evidence many readers already knew about in an interview. That TIP is therefore more reliable than the former.


Quote:
This has the form of:

"Forgers often theorize that [X]" - Therefore, [not X].
Which leads to an abundance of logical absurdities

"Forgers often theorize that people died on Rokkenjima." - Therefore, nobody died on Rokkenjima.

"Forgers often theorize that Rokkenjima is an island." - Therefore, Rokkenjima isn't an island.
See above.

the last one isn't even a theory in the world of Umineko it's fact. These things have nothing to do with one another. They are different issues and can be treated as such.


Quote:
Secoondly, her life tips say that: "On October 4, 1986, she drifted to Rokkenjima. The Ushiromiya family welcomed her as a guest. She managed to drift to the island unharmed..." How do you determine which has precedence over the other?
see above author said it's trust worthy information.


Quote:
Thirdly, these TIPS aren't the red truth and there's no way of know if they're simply misdirection/lies or not.
Did you read the same sound novel I did? What did that whole conversation between Battler and Dlanor about red vs white text mean to you? What did all those 'I acknowledge it' reds mean to you?

What does this quote mean to you?

"If you do love me, you must see my words as red truth, right?"
-Lambdadelta
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Old 2010-11-05, 18:19   Link #5072
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Of course Erika increases the count by one... in only those stories where she exists.

So does the magic half-elephant man with whooping cough who parachutes onto the island from a crashing airplane in the Rokkenjima story I just made up in my head. The fact that he exists in this Rokkenjima story does not mean he exists in all Rokkenjima stories, let alone that he existed on the "real" Rokkenjima, if there was one (well, if there was one in the intermediate "reality" layer, as there obviously was no such place or event in our reality).

Erika is free to exist in any story in which she is permitted to exist. Lambda essentially alters a premise of the game in order to permit it to happen. This expands the set of stories into which Rokkenjima tales can be spun.

But nothing prevents Beatrice, or indeed anyone with the proper knowledge, from speaking about something else entirely, so long as no one calls them out on it. Watch, I'll use magic right in front of you:

The magic half-elephant man with whooping cough parachuted onto Rokkenjima from a crashing airplane!
Everyone saw him clearly land in the rose garden! But that was an illusion... he never landed there, because he can fly!
While he was flying, he teleported to another planet, which is why he does not exist anywhere in this world, whether on Rokkenjima or not!
Indeed, in this world he never existed in the first place! But of course, he really does exist.

Battler said this was going to piss off the purists. Now you see why.
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Old 2010-11-05, 18:28   Link #5073
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It is nice and dandy to have a discussion going on, but I would like to remind all of you that no matter what, everyone is entitled to their opinions.
Things are: some members behaviour and speech style are dangerously crawling towards flame war and whatnot.

You may disagree with anyone, but please do not start going all personal or sarcastic for the hell of it. Any comment judged inappropriate will be deleted, along with a penalty if needed.
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Old 2010-11-05, 18:34   Link #5074
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Duly noted.
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Old 2010-11-05, 18:40   Link #5075
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Originally Posted by einhorn303 View Post
And I trust the author. If I didn't, there'd be no point to debating what the truth of Umineko is.
Good, then basically my point is that since I trust the author even if I know that the gameboards are fictional stories I believe that they contain all the elements to understand what truly happened on Rokkenjima.

Of course it is easy to say "the gameboards are fake stories so they are irrelevant" but in my opinion it's as easy as saying "the author is trolling us so whatever he narrates can be ignored completely".

So in the end in my opinion whether the gameboards are true or fiction it doesn't change a thing, if you trust the author you'll believe you can use the information given to reach the truth regardless.
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Old 2010-11-05, 18:42   Link #5076
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What Jan-Poo said. Assuming that everything is true as presented only muddles the issue more, in my opinion. The validity of the gameboards doesn't matter; regardless of their content, they were given, in-universe and out-universe, by an author who wants us to discern the truth. Admitting that the gameboards are fictions even within Umineko's universe is not "distrusting the author."
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Old 2010-11-05, 18:43   Link #5077
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Dully, I don't see where this discussion is going because if we start doubting the authenticity of red truths then there is really no point in arguing Umineko's truth because EVERYTHING is allowed to be truth, thus the Schrodinger's Cat Metaphor.

To me, it sounds like you guys are saying:
"Umineko no Naku Koro ni" is a fiction. There is no Ushiromiya Kinzo, Krauss, Natsuhi, Eva, Hideyoshi, Rudolf, Kyrie, Rosa, George, Jessica, Battler, or Maria in real life. The servants Gohda, Kumasawa, Genji, Shannon, Kanon, and the dotor Nanjo doesn't exist in real life. There is no Rokkenjima in real life. There is no Rokkenjima Incident in real life.

The red truth should only be applicable only in each episode they were presented, and they should be the truth for their corresponding gameboard. This way the red truth can stand by itself and shouldn't defy logic.

The red truth should be a clue or restraints for us to find out what happened in Rokkenjima-Prime, but strictly in this sense, even the whites are clues on what happened in Rokkenjima-Prime.


And I thought weyou guys established this sometime ago.
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Old 2010-11-05, 18:50   Link #5078
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Quote:
Originally Posted by erneiz_hyde View Post
To me, it sounds like you guys are saying:
"Umineko no Naku Koro ni" is a fiction. There is no Ushiromiya Kinzo, Krauss, Natsuhi, Eva, Hideyoshi, Rudolf, Kyrie, Rosa, George, Jessica, Battler, or Maria in real life. The servants Gohda, Kumasawa, Genji, Shannon, Kanon, and the dotor Nanjo doesn't exist in real life. There is no Rokkenjima in real life. There is no Rokkenjima Incident in real life.
This is a completely valid red.

So is Ushiromiya Kinzo, Krauss, Natsuhi, Eva, Hideyoshi, Rudolf, Kyrie, Rosa, George, Jessica, Battler, and Maria existed. The servants Gohda, Kumasawa, Genji, Shannon, Kanon, and the doctor Nanjo existed. Rokkenjima is a real island. The Rokkenjima Incident occurred in 1986.
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I submit that a murder was committed in 1996.
This murder was a "copycat" crime inspired by our tales of 1986.
This story is a redacted confession.

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Old 2010-11-05, 18:52   Link #5079
Judoh
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Well I'll start by saying that no one here doubts the authenticity of all red truths. We doubt that they are universal for every game and we doubt that they can be authentic without their game's context. (unless the context is that it applies to all games) No we use the red truth like Knox's rules as a crutch for thinking that is open to interpretation.

There are people who doubt that the red truth Nanjo is not a murderer is universal. Does that mean they doubt the authenticity of the red truth? No they doubt that Nanjo can't be a murderer in all games. I don't agree with that opinion, but it's a valid one to have.

We trust the white text to be able to give us a sea of hints that the red truth cannot. Because while the red truth can give you direction it is not an absolute truth of the story detector. You need to actually read the story and look past the red to get it.
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Old 2010-11-05, 19:06   Link #5080
AuraTwilight
The True Culprit
 
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
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What they said. And all I'm personally saying is that one can't assume that all Red Truths have to be 100% literal, or that if a Red Truth is stated, it must be apply to an actual Real World instead of a fictional Gameboard.

Take, for instance, the Red Truth, You are all alone on this island. And of course, I am not you. Yet I am here, now, and will kill you. We pretty much know for a fact that the bomb explosion is what's being referred to here, but Beatrice ("I") made the statement. Does this mean Battler's been arguing with a bomb, this whole time? Does this mean Beatrice's ghost is going to turn on the bomb? Of course not. It's allegorical, even though it's totally true.

I don't understand why some people have such difficulty with this. I really, sincerely don't get what the problem is.
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