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Old 2010-11-05, 10:13   Link #381
Solecs
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Originally Posted by wisteria233 View Post
Gilliam is pretty much right in front of her (the Vajra in front of her at that time as well), and even then Alto tells her about Gilliam shortly after wards. The movie fixed this by replacing Gilliam with Ozma and then having her react.

About Alto running away, Alto disliked remember and his dislike of Frontier itself could be seen as a dislike of his reality, or the inability to accept it for what it was. Because only wanting to fly can be seen as selfish to the people of Frontier, who don't really have that luxury.
I'm not so sure it was right in front of her. It is right in front of Alto for sure, but it looks(sounds) like the vajra has to take a few steps to get to where Ranka is after killing Gilliam. When you're the size of a building a few steps can cover a fair bit of distance. Also, when Alto shoots the vajra from the valkyrie he's at least a city block away. He's hardly very clear when he tells Ranka as well, and she reacted like she had no idea what he was talking about.

I can see Alto not being happy with his reality, but it seems like he's actively working on it. They portray him as being fairly capable, and it's not like he's wallowing away in self-pity (yet).
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Old 2010-11-05, 10:39   Link #382
wisteria233
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Originally Posted by Solecs View Post
I'm not so sure it was right in front of her. It is right in front of Alto for sure, but it looks(sounds) like the vajra has to take a few steps to get to where Ranka is after killing Gilliam. When you're the size of a building a few steps can cover a fair bit of distance. Also, when Alto shoots the vajra from the valkyrie he's at least a city block away. He's hardly very clear when he tells Ranka as well, and she reacted like she had no idea what he was talking about.

I can see Alto not being happy with his reality, but it seems like he's actively working on it. They portray him as being fairly capable, and it's not like he's wallowing away in self-pity (yet).
Vajra are very large, she was looking directly at the Vajra at the time that Gilliam died. Also the Vajra wasn't that far away from Ranka, you'd have to be blind not to notice the giant space bug or the Valkyrie firing at it. And what Alto said to Ranka was "You shouldn't be thanking me, you should be thanking that pilot..." is exactly what Alto said to Ranka word for word, and he said it very clearly as well. There is nothing to mistake there.

Problem is he still hated him home at the beginning of Frontier, and wants to get away from it, because he wants what his cannot provide. There is nothing he can do to get his "sky" at that time in fact in Macross Frontier that was just a unrealistic wish. He also didn't want to join the military as it was the only way to get a valkyrie (well that or the SMS, which is a private military), and then fight for Frontier.
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Old 2010-11-05, 11:26   Link #383
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Originally Posted by wisteria233 View Post
Vajra are very large, she was looking directly at the Vajra at the time that Gilliam died. Also the Vajra wasn't that far away from Ranka, you'd have to be blind not to notice the giant space bug or the Valkyrie firing at it. And what Alto said to Ranka was "You shouldn't be thanking me, you should be thanking that pilot..." is exactly what Alto said to Ranka word for word, and he said it very clearly as well. There is nothing to mistake there.

Problem is he still hated him home at the beginning of Frontier, and wants to get away from it, because he wants what his cannot provide. There is nothing he can do to get his "sky" at that time in fact in Macross Frontier that was just a unrealistic wish. He also didn't want to join the military as it was the only way to get a valkyrie (well that or the SMS, which is a private military), and then fight for Frontier.
I'm not saying that she couldn't see the vajra, just that she didn't see Gilliam being killed. The space bug is hard to miss, the squirmy thing in its hand not so much. I would say it was a decent distance, episode two shows an overhead of Alto shooting the thing:



the position of the valkyrie would have been where Gilliam was killed in episode one:



Ranka would have been where the vajra is in the first pic when Gilliam was killed. As for what Alto said, the version I'm watching simply has him saying "I'm not the one you should thank." so it could be wrong. I couldn't say as I don't speak Japanese.

As a side note, the time of day seems to shift pretty drastically from the end of ep 1 and the beginning of ep 2. There's still some daylight at first but when Ozma shows up it looks like full-on night.
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Old 2010-11-05, 14:00   Link #384
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Originally Posted by Solecs View Post
I'm not saying that she couldn't see the vajra, just that she didn't see Gilliam being killed. The space bug is hard to miss, the squirmy thing in its hand not so much. I would say it was a decent distance, episode two shows an overhead of Alto shooting the thing:



the position of the valkyrie would have been where Gilliam was killed in episode one:

You do have a point there, it seems like I was wrong to assume that Ranka really did see Gilliam getting killed. Thanks for pointing that out, apparently this re-watch works out quite well

Quote:
Originally Posted by Solecs View Post
As for what Alto said, the version I'm watching simply has him saying "I'm not the one you should thank." so it could be wrong. I couldn't say as I don't speak Japanese.
I'm re-watching with Central Anime subs and they've recently been re-subbing this show, although I have the same exact translation as you. It seems like it is correct considering their translator is native Japanese and they check their translations quite thoroughly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Solecs View Post
As a side note, the time of day seems to shift pretty drastically from the end of ep 1 and the beginning of ep 2. There's still some daylight at first but when Ozma shows up it looks like full-on night.
Hmmm, I'm not sure it's the time that changes so much. I believe the events occurred during the time that the sun was just beginning to set. I'd say an hour or maybe 2 hours went by between episode 1 and 2.
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Old 2010-11-05, 14:44   Link #385
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Originally Posted by DeX-kun View Post
You do have a point there, it seems like I was wrong to assume that Ranka really did see Gilliam getting killed. Thanks for pointing that out, apparently this re-watch works out quite well
Uh, hardly. The distance is about three houses, so I'd guesstimate some 60 meters. That's not really very far.
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Old 2010-11-05, 15:13   Link #386
DeX-kun
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Uh, hardly. The distance is about three houses, so I'd guesstimate some 60 meters. That's not really very far.
Well his theory does make sense since it's consistent with Ranka's confused reaction when Alto tells her that he shouldn't be the person that she should thank. So I wouldn't say hardly, more like plausible enough.
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Old 2010-11-05, 15:19   Link #387
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I'd go with selective memory, conveniently explained via her early trauma, myself.
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Old 2010-11-05, 15:21   Link #388
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That and she probably just curled into fetal position and covered her eyes. But saying that she couldn't see it seems wrong to me. It's not really a big distance.
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Old 2010-11-05, 15:30   Link #389
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I'd go with selective memory, conveniently explained via her early trauma, myself.
That certainly does make sense as well, that's also a plausible theory.

Quote:
Originally Posted by magnuskn View Post
That and she probably just curled into fetal position and covered her eyes. But saying that she couldn't see it seems wrong to me. It's not really a big distance.
That would depend on the position of the Vajra during Gilliam's death. As far as we see, it's difficult to determine really.
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Old 2010-11-05, 15:48   Link #390
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You know, this kind of reminds me of the big argument that we had over episode ten, when some fans were trying to argue that Sheryl knew that Ranka was watching her and deliberately kissed Alto simply in order to spite Ranka.

I had a remarkable feeling of deja vu when I saw screenshots being used to prove that the view was obstructed or that the distance was too far.

I personally feel that they should have gone for a split-screen reaction to Gilliam's death, panning to all of the members of the cast. While my opinions of the characters probably wouldn't be swayed by the sudden surge in "empathy" (i.e. angst), I do love a show that doesn't take itself too seriously.

Ranka's fine as she is, at this point in the story. If anything, I think we could stand to see more of her cheerful and outgoing side in these early episodes, because that's where her strengths really lie.
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Old 2010-11-05, 17:53   Link #391
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Originally Posted by Solecs View Post
I'm not saying that she couldn't see the vajra, just that she didn't see Gilliam being killed. The space bug is hard to miss, the squirmy thing in its hand not so much. I would say it was a decent distance, episode two shows an overhead of Alto shooting the thing:



the position of the valkyrie would have been where Gilliam was killed in episode one:



Ranka would have been where the vajra is in the first pic when Gilliam was killed. As for what Alto said, the version I'm watching simply has him saying "I'm not the one you should thank." so it could be wrong. I couldn't say as I don't speak Japanese.

As a side note, the time of day seems to shift pretty drastically from the end of ep 1 and the beginning of ep 2. There's still some daylight at first but when Ozma shows up it looks like full-on night.
Problem with you observational is that is actually wasn't that far it was just two to three houses away, and both the Valkryie and the Vajra were quite and also Alto could see her from a much farther distance, so I call bullocks on your observation.

Unless you're saying that Ranka has problems with her eyes that she can't see a giant bug squash a man two houses away from her.
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Old 2010-11-05, 18:02   Link #392
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Originally Posted by Swampstorm View Post
You know, this kind of reminds me of the big argument that we had over episode ten, when some fans were trying to argue that Sheryl knew that Ranka was watching her and deliberately kissed Alto simply in order to spite Ranka.
*chuckles*

Those were the days

*sips tea*
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Old 2010-11-05, 19:38   Link #393
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It's already past 01:30 a.m. here, so I'm gonna post my thoughts for this weeks episode and go to sleep.

---

I’ve got a confession to make: The second half of episode four is my favorite sequence of the whole show, even if it didn’t include much Sheryl. But it just clicked together so perfectly, with Alto being so intense about getting into SMS, Ranka’s very cute performance of “My boyfriend is a pilot”, the battle sequence, the introduction of Klan and… gah! All of it! Here we go!

01:05 – What a facial expression. Goofy and yet proud.

01:33 – I much prefer this scene of Michael giving Alto his “badges of shame” to how it was done in the movie.

03:20 – Michael is enjoying this just a bit too much.

03:43 – And Bobbys obvious gayness is introduced here, too.

03:50 – Alto not having noticed that Michael set the difficulty to the highest level is also much superior than what we got in the movie.

04:10 – Heh, I remember a discussion where some guys were claiming that Ranka and Alto were texting each other “constantly” during this episode. Only that this and later Alto sending Ranka an encouraging SMS were the only instances of it. ^^

04:45 – Wow, he looked pretty girly here even without the make-up.

05:19 – Hm, what is Ozma thinking? “Damn, I’d hit that!”?

05:45 – Ozma is repressing at this point something fierce, having dedicated himself to Ranka to exclusion of any private romantic ambitions. At least that’s what I am reading from a retrospective standpoint.

05:25 – When I showed this particular episode to my best friend from Paraguay, he said “Those Japanese are all about tits.”. Little does he know how much. ^^

06:58 – Hey, maybe Alto should have been entered as a participant. Just saying….

07:05 – Heh, I never noticed that Alto just opened that locker to slam it shut.

07:08 – Oh, c’mon, Hime-sama, you should be used to having make-up for females applied to your face.

07:18 – So, I know this scene can be interpreted by both sides of the romance divide in their own way. On one hand, Alto is blushing a bit. On the other hand, he categorically denies that it is a date and calls it his “duty”.

08:00 – So Catherine was in the competition 17 years ago?

08:40 – Second episode in a row where Sheryl dispenses sage advice. A good set-up for the next episode, where many people flipped from Ranka-support to Sheryl.

09:20 – One of the few scenes of the entire series where it is made clear that Ranka does indeed have breasts.

09:28 – I think here we can date Nanases forbidden desire for Ranka?

09:40 – And the first ( pretty obvious ) hint that Luca lusts after Nanase.

10:05 – This right here is the beginning of my favorite sequence of the whole show, from here until the end of the episode. They do absolutely everything right from here on forward.

10:10 – Poor automated vendor cart. Never successful.

10:20 – Altos daddy just looks a total hardass.

10:27 – I never got why they showed Altos Sakura-hime persona when his daddy and him made eye contact. Only much later did someone point out that this was to show that Ranzo only saw the Kabuki actor in Alto.

10:34 – Cold, Ranzo, really cold.

11:01 – Skull SQUADRON, dammit!

11:20 - The plane elevator scene mimicking a shot from the Macross opening. It always looks excellent.

11:55 – A wonderful “Holy shit, are they suicidal?” scene, which shows how good reflexes even a rather bad pilot like Luca must have, to navigate an asteroid field at this speed so confidently.

12:13 – I love how the display data is reflected on Altos visor. That’s attention to detail!

12:39 - Was that the first time they showed the holographic visual communication in-cockpit? I always find it incredibly cool ( also: I’d love to have Altos mobile phone ).

12:50 – This shot, with Alto going “Capitalism, eh?” always seemed a bit strange to me. Why is he getting thoughtful about this?

13:00 – Hm, so was that a Zentran or a Meltran? Michael says “he”, but were the male Zentraedi even using Queadluuns before the present day?

13:55 – And we establish right off the bat that Alto is at least better than some of SMS veteran pilots.

14:22 – Alto can’t really help himself against his actors nature sometimes.

14:25 – Bobby is suitably impressed.

14:45 – I always love the attention to detail, how Rankas hands are shaking.

15:00 – Yeah, the implied connection is pretty clear here.

15:10 – Damn impressive shot right here.

15:20 – And the jet trails drawing a heart is also awesome.

15:25 – How long back exactly did Captain Wilder know Ozma?

15:30 – The girls are impressed. Well, besides Monika, but she has her eyes on someone else, as we all know…

15:45 – I absolutely love this particular shot with the spinning asteroid and the close fly-by over it.

15:50 – That’s some pretty damn impressive maneuvering right there. Making sommersaults while transforming your mech? Very good piloting indeed.

16:05 – Heh, the contrast between Altos surefootedness and Ranka stumbling is quite marked.

16:55 – Well, Alto is truly pissed that the Vajra not only threatened Ranka but also destroyed her life beforehand, that’s for sure here.

17:28 – The Victor type Vajra really suffered from some serious villain decay after this episode. But until then, the creators made sure that we knew that they were tough to take out.

18:05 – Another great shot. Love the following homage to Hikaru getting into the fight with the Zentraedi scouting vessel.

18:55 – And Cathys suspicion towards Leon seems to start here, although we never see what the exact catalyst of it is.

19:10 – I absolutely love Klans introduction, which gave us another good look at the sense of scale the people of Frontier have to deal with on a daily basis.

19:22 – Did they have to give her such enormously oversize knockers? I guess for the contrast with micronized Klan, but still…

19:33 – The “his battle sense isn’t bad” translation is, by the way, one of the main reasons why I use THORA over Anime Central. It just sounds better.

20:08 – This scene here also really shows that Michael is a friend of Alto, despite their incessant in-fighting.

20:18 – Klans “second” introduction also stands out for awesomeness.

20:20 – Why does Lucas rosy teint float before his cheeks? ^^

20:43 – Beautiful attention to detail: Klans flailing arms form a heart.

21:14 – Luca at the very least has a good sense when to make himself rare.

21:33 – That must be some weird material they use for napkins at Nyan Nyan. Generally I think I wouldn’t like napkins which are made out of paper stiff enough to fold paper planes with.

21:42 – Again with the attention to detail, we see Klan chasing Michael around in the background.

21:57 – Klan only wants Michaels braaaaiiiins.

22:09 – I never noticed Sheryls self-satisfied smirk just before she launches her sneak attack on Alto. I guess she was really happy with her plans for him.

22:16 – Yeah, I guess I also would lose the capacity to be angry at this view.

And so we finish for this week. Next week: The best whole entire episode of the series!
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Old 2010-11-05, 21:43   Link #394
Solecs
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Originally Posted by wisteria233 View Post
Problem with you observational is that is actually wasn't that far it was just two to three houses away, and both the Valkryie and the Vajra were quite and also Alto could see her from a much farther distance, so I call bullocks on your observation.
Fair enough, I like the theory but there's always room for debate. Selective memory is just as possible as is Ranka just being unsympathetic or any other such theory. I think I'll just leave it as it is. Swampstorm makes me think I got too wrapped up in the debate. I get easily carried-away, sorry about that .

I'm not even that much of a Ranka fan, so it's weird I'm defending her in the first place , must be the moe?

Still some hours left until Saturday for me, so I'll be back for that later.
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Old 2010-11-05, 22:27   Link #395
DeX-kun
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Originally Posted by Solecs View Post
Fair enough, I like the theory but there's always room for debate. Selective memory is just as possible as is Ranka just being unsympathetic or any other such theory. I think I'll just leave it as it is. Swampstorm makes me think I got too wrapped up in the debate. I get easily carried-away, sorry about that .
Don't even worry about it, this wasn't really that big of a debate. I'm not sure whether or not you were here for earlier arguments but it was much much worse over tiny issues

I agree with Swamp as well though, we shouldn't even be taking that so seriously but it was something fairly new since everything else has been discussed to death Although to be fair, you did bring up some pretty good points which made me re-think my own assumptions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Solecs View Post
I'm not even that much of a Ranka fan, so it's weird I'm defending her in the first place , must be the moe?
I'm not sure this defends her in any way to be honest. I mean it's really not that big of a deal in my opinion
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Old 2010-11-05, 22:47   Link #396
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God I love the music. The guitar track when Alto was taking off has to be one of my favorites. Minmay's song brought back so many memories too, it was awesome. Poor Ranka though, losing but she'll beat that girl in the charts soon enough. And I think "My Boyfriend is a Pilot" equates to losing the love contest.

I also liked how both Alto and Sheryl gave Ranka confidence, it's great when the triangle is friendly like that.

And my observations...
  • Nanase ZR!!
  • If Cathy is the 8th Miss Macross when did the contest become tradition?
  • Sheryl even looks good with glasses.
  • Ranka is entry number 7!!
  • Klan's voice is great, macro and micro.
  • Lots is boin this episode.
  • Boy did Luca move away from Ranka and Alto quick.
  • Worst cliffhanger yet. "Hi~" HNNGGHHH.
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Old 2010-11-05, 23:41   Link #397
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Swampstorm View Post
You know, this kind of reminds me of the big argument that we had over episode ten, when some fans were trying to argue that Sheryl knew that Ranka was watching her and deliberately kissed Alto simply in order to spite Ranka.

I had a remarkable feeling of deja vu when I saw screenshots being used to prove that the view was obstructed or that the distance was too far.
LOL. I can barely imagine how crazy the forum was back then. I wasn't here...so just wondering, did people also debate the "Alto saluted both Sheryl and Ranka" thing in episode 25? (Or perhaps it's better if I don't bring this up now...?)

=====

I'll be back with any commentary tidbits later in the week, but on the episode itself:
  • 3:40 If it's true that 美形/bikei is a term typically used by fujoshi, I'm tickled that Bobby used it here to describe Alto!
  • I love the bridge crew - their camaraderie is fantastic! And Captain Wilder - time for me to get back into Ookawa Tohru's voice!
  • *agrees with magnus* the hazing in the series is WAAAAY better than in the movie.
  • Ranka really was completely out of place. What's with that backpack? (unless it's homage of some sort...)
  • Knowing know what Ozma and Cathy's relationship turns out to be...was he that against the Miss Macross Contest back then as well?
  • And my favourite character makes an entrance! I love her grin @7:52
  • 17:00~ And this is precisely what Michel was cautioning Alto about last episode. He did have some good intuition here, but it COULD have ended differently.
  • 20:15~ Klan x Michel!!
  • 22:18 I love Alto's little "geh..." here

Quote:
Originally Posted by magnuskn View Post
03:43 – And Bobbys obvious gayness is introduced here, too.
Speaking of Bobby, there's a kinda amusing backstage anecdote about his first entrance in the series. Can any of you remember exactly when that was?
Quote:
Originally Posted by magnuskn View Post
07:18 – So, I know this scene can be interpreted by both sides of the romance divide in their own way. On one hand, Alto is blushing a bit. On the other hand, he categorically denies that it is a date and calls it his “duty”.
But since he is basically a tsundere, what he says in this kind of situation probably shouldn't be taken completely at face value
Quote:
Originally Posted by magnuskn View Post
09:40 – And the first ( pretty obvious ) hint that Luca lusts after Nanase.
Made far more obvious in my sub's translation than in the original...
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Originally Posted by magnuskn View Post
13:00 – Hm, so was that a Zentran or a Meltran? Michael says “he”, but were the male Zentraedi even using Queadluuns before the present day?
Added in translation (it's not specified and the sub I'm using doesn't have it).

====

(*sighs* I actually wish the commentary was on next week's episode instead!)
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Old 2010-11-05, 23:48   Link #398
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Originally Posted by karice67 View Post
LOL. I can barely imagine how crazy the forum was back then. I wasn't here...so just wondering, did people also debate the "Alto saluted both Sheryl and Ranka" thing in episode 25? (Or perhaps it's better if I don't bring this up now...?)
Have you looked in the individual episode threads?
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Old 2010-11-06, 02:10   Link #399
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Episode 4: ooo, bouncy .

Probably my favorite episode so far, don't remember if it was my favorite overall though. The fight sequence between Alto and Klan was the highlight for sure. I don't have the nostalgia from the song, but I appreciate it all the same. The one thing I liked through the whole series was the music, and here it was used just about perfectly. Ok, maybe the sequence was a little bit over the top (heart shaped vapor trails ), and did he really need to do the pose?

I feel like Michael is back to his normal self here. A joker, but he cares about his friend and all that. He's also lucky to have Klan, I mean big and bouncy and DFC all in one person, and they're so great with each other. Their little exchange at the restaurant was a great way to transition from all the seriousness with the vajra and Miss Macross winner.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DeX-kun View Post
Don't even worry about it, this wasn't really that big of a debate. I'm not sure whether or not you were here for earlier arguments but it was much much worse over tiny issues

I agree with Swamp as well though, we shouldn't even be taking that so seriously but it was something fairly new since everything else has been discussed to death Although to be fair, you did bring up some pretty good points which made me re-think my own assumptions.

I'm not sure this defends her in any way to be honest. I mean it's really not that big of a deal in my opinion
Thanks, I don't think I was around much, if at all, during the original run so some of the discussions and such are new to me. I'm glad we're doing this rewatch since I'm enjoying the series much more now and getting a lot more out of it.
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Old 2010-11-06, 03:52   Link #400
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Originally Posted by karice67 View Post
LOL. I can barely imagine how crazy the forum was back then. I wasn't here...so just wondering, did people also debate the "Alto saluted both Sheryl and Ranka" thing in episode 25? (Or perhaps it's better if I don't bring this up now...?)
With screenshots and all!
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