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Old 2010-11-08, 21:21   Link #18581
Kaisos Erranon
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Going off the current topic here, but has anyone EVER come up with an explanation for Nanjo's death in Ep3? As I recall, Will doesn't even mention it.

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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
You'd have some serious issues making Kyrie or Rudolf into much in ep1-4.
Hey now, it's relatively easy to finger Kyrie as the culprit in Ep4. Battler never talks to anyone else in the dungeon over the phone but her.
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Old 2010-11-08, 21:24   Link #18582
UsagiTenpura
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I guess I mean what do you mean by "true culprit", what makes that culprit truer then another?

... And what makes them the culprit at all if they weren't responsible for murders?
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Old 2010-11-08, 21:24   Link #18583
Cao Ni Ma
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Originally Posted by ameskitty View Post
I've been spacing off a bit recently in class, somehow came back to Umineko, and came up with a distinct reason for why Kyrie and Rudolf as the culprits bothers me. Aren't they the two people that Shannon would have the most reason to dislike? The people she'd be most likely to leave open as "alternate" culprits were she trying to mask the identity of the real culprit in her game?
I dont know about Rudolph but Im pretty sure Battler anticipated Bernkastel's truth by EP6 and arranged the game initially with that in mind. The thing I found strangest was how all the characters that ended up 'dead' and laying in beds had at one point or another been considered a culprit. It could very well be a RK07 thing to have females be the culprits and it could be one hell of a coincidence but I'd like to believe there was more to Battler decision than just a crazy misogynistic culprit.

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Hey now, it's relatively easy to finger Kyrie as the culprit in Ep4. Battler never talks to anyone else in the dungeon over the phone but her.
You know I went over both Jessica's and Kyrie's converstion with Battler to see if there where any clues. I vaguely remembered Kyrie telling Battler not to interrupt her while she spoke and I had the idea that this might have been a recorded conversation Kyrie left that is later played out after her death but she clearly responds to Battler in one of the questions. Too much of a Xanatos roulette to work properly. But then I noticed Maria knew that Kyrie told Battler to believe in the witch without Battler ever telling her...
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Old 2010-11-08, 21:24   Link #18584
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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
Going off the current topic here, but has anyone EVER come up with an explanation for Nanjo's death in Ep3? As I recall, Will doesn't even mention it.
One of the Rudolf/Kyrie/Hideyoshi trio still being alive long enough to kill him before expiring was always the go-to idea.
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Old 2010-11-08, 21:27   Link #18585
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Originally Posted by UsagiTenpura View Post
I guess I mean what do you mean by "true culprit", what makes that culprit truer then another?

... And what makes them the culprit at all if they weren't responsible for murders?
I've always defined "culprit" in that sense to mean "the person who plans out the murders but doesn't necessarily execute them", or "the mastermind".

This person need not even be on the island, but I think that idea's out after Ep7.

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One of the Rudolf/Kyrie/Hideyoshi trio still being alive long enough to kill him before expiring was always the go-to idea.
But doesn't Will refer to that incident as an "ashes" murder, not an "illusion"?

If so, there doesn't exist a single person alive at that point who can kill Nanjo, unless there's someone unaccounted for.
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Old 2010-11-08, 21:29   Link #18586
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Well... the "someone was still alive but died later" was Battler's ep4 solution, right?

You could try "Rokkenjima prime truth" (like what some people suggest for the end of ep6), personality death, Shannon or Kanon being dead before the game started or whatever.
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Old 2010-11-08, 21:30   Link #18587
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Depends on what specifically constitutes an illusion in Will's reckoning.
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Old 2010-11-08, 21:34   Link #18588
Kaisos Erranon
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Well... the "someone was still alive but died later" was Battler's ep4 solution, right?
Yes, but that's not the solution Erika suggests in Ep6. She says that the names of the people Eva-Beatrice gave as dead did not correspond to the number of people who were dead (15)... or something like that, I don't remember specifically.

Saying "Kanon is dead" and "Shannon is dead" is just saying "Yasu is dead" twice.

Can anyone see where I'm going with this?

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Depends on what specifically constitutes an illusion in Will's reckoning.
I always figured it was an allusion to the two types of closed rooms, "the illusion of a closed room" and "the illusion of a crime".

"Illusions" would be murders where no one actually dies, and "ashes" those where the corpses presented are in fact dead.
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Old 2010-11-08, 21:37   Link #18589
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Oh yeah... Battler claimed that he was caught out because "The list of people did not correspond to the people who actually existed" (or something like that).
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Old 2010-11-08, 21:42   Link #18590
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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
I always figured it was an allusion to the two types of closed rooms, "the illusion of a closed room" and "the illusion of a crime".

"Illusions" would be murders where no one actually dies, and "ashes" those where the corpses presented are in fact dead.
Well, if we believe there was an actual fatal argument between the three, it wouldn't be fakery (that is, a deliberate "illusion"), but the mere fact that one of the people slumped on the floor of the foyer isn't dead doesn't mean they were trying to fake. If Battler gets conked on the head and locked in a chainlocked room and everyone peeking in thinks he's dead, it's not an "illusion," the observers just drew the wrong conclusion.

EDIT: Though one can claim that making observers draw the wrong conclusion is the whole point of "illusion to illusion," but what I'm driving at is that Will perhaps thinks an illusion is more deliberate.
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Old 2010-11-08, 21:44   Link #18591
Kaisos Erranon
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Originally Posted by Leafsnail View Post
Oh yeah... Battler claimed that he was caught out because "The list of people did not correspond to the people who actually existed" (or something like that).
Now, think about what that implies.

Yasu is dead. Kyrie is dead. Every single person on the island except for Eva, Jessica, and Battler is dead. None of them committed Nanjo's murder.

How did Nanjo die?

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EDIT: Though one can claim that making observers draw the wrong conclusion is the whole point of "illusion to illusion," but what I'm driving at is that Will perhaps thinks an illusion is more deliberate.
I prefer my conclusion since it ties into something that's been discussed both in and out of game ad infinitum since Ep3.
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Old 2010-11-08, 21:44   Link #18592
Cao Ni Ma
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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post

Saying "Kanon is dead" and "Shannon is dead" is just saying "Yasu is dead" twice.

Can anyone see where I'm going with this?

Yeah I know where you're are going with this but if Shkanon is real and they are actually dead then there shouldn't be a corpse in the parlor and another in the chapel unless the witnesses there lied.

Battler's initial solution is that a person committed the initial 5 murders and then dies in an accident. Beatrice is about to cut that in half with a red truth but holds back after being advised by Ronove to reconsider. If there was no accident then the only way I can see the creation of those closed rooms is if one of them was still alive, preferably Shanon. As she could later lure George into the parlor.
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Old 2010-11-08, 21:46   Link #18593
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Yeah I know where you're are going with this but if Shkanon is real and they are actually dead then there shouldn't be a corpse in the parlor and another in the chapel unless the witnesses there lied.

Battler's initial solution is that a person committed the initial 5 murders and then dies in an accident. Beatrice is about to cut that in half with a red truth but holds back after being advised by Ronove to reconsider. If there was no accident then the only way I can see the creation of those closed rooms is if one of them was still alive, preferably Shanon. As she could later lure George into the parlor.
That works... if Kanon and Shannon are different people. Or Shkanon is an incredible ninja and a red-evader and/or died instantly after killing Nanjo.
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Old 2010-11-08, 21:47   Link #18594
Kaisos Erranon
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Originally Posted by Cao Ni Ma View Post
Battler's initial solution is that a person committed the initial 5 murders and then dies in an accident. Beatrice is about to cut that in half with a red truth but holds back after being advised by Ronove to reconsider. If there was no accident then the only way I can see the creation of those closed rooms is if one of them was still alive, preferably Shanon. As she could later lure George into the parlor.
Well, that's exactly it. Yasu deliberately constructed that closed room chain, just like Will said.

But s/he's almost definitely dead by the time Battler finds George's massive dead girth crushing her in the parlor, right?

So who killed Nanjo? This really isn't that hard, guys.

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Or Shkanon is an incredible ninja and a red-evader and/or died instantly after killing Nanjo.
I think the sheer improbability of the chain actually working is part of the whole 'magic being a gamble' thing, though.
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Old 2010-11-08, 21:51   Link #18595
Cao Ni Ma
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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
Well, that's exactly it. Yasu deliberately constructed that closed room chain, just like Will said.

But s/he's almost definitely dead by the time Battler finds George's massive dead girth crushing her in the parlor, right?

So who killed Nanjo?
Beatrice's name is probably hereditary as well, a person that might have died before killed both George and Yasu during that time. One shot trough both of them like in the siesta scene. Then that person inherits the Beatrice name until he/she dies later. The person that did this might be the true culprit.
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Old 2010-11-08, 21:52   Link #18596
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I think the sheer improbability of the chain actually working is part of the whole 'magic being a gamble' thing, though.
Faking once in a chain of six is a gamble. Faking twice is just tempting fate.
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Old 2010-11-08, 21:59   Link #18597
Kaisos Erranon
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Beatrice's name is probably hereditary as well, a person that might have died before killed both George and Yasu during that time. One shot trough both of them like in the siesta scene. Then that person inherits the Beatrice name until he/she dies later. The person that did this might be the true culprit.
...What?

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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
Faking once in a chain of six is a gamble. Faking twice is just tempting fate.
Nanjo's an accomplice, though. I don't really think it's too improbable given that he might have kept the rest of the family away from the corpses.
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Old 2010-11-08, 22:01   Link #18598
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The problem is more ninjaing oneself from the parlor to the chapel, then back. That means swapping places and outfits twice.

By the way, who killed George?
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Old 2010-11-08, 22:07   Link #18599
Kaisos Erranon
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The problem is more ninjaing oneself from the parlor to the chapel, then back. That means swapping places and outfits twice.
Once the adults move to the guesthouse, Yasu has all the time s/he needs to change back into the Shannon outfit and hang in the parlor in case anyone comes back.

It's not like anyone's going to check the chapel again, and indeed, Battler doesn't.

If he had, this would have answered quite a lot rather early.

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By the way, who killed George?
The same person who killed Nanjo, of course.
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Old 2010-11-08, 22:08   Link #18600
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Once the adults move to the guesthouse, Yasu has all the time s/he needs to change back into the Shannon outfit and hang in the parlor in case anyone comes back.

It's not like anyone's going to check the chapel again, and indeed, Battler doesn't.

If he had, this would have answered quite a lot rather early.
Yeah but the person doing the faking has no way to actually know that. Suppose Rosa, overcome by the sight of a dead body, faints on the couch and is left in the care of Hideyoshi in the parlor while everyone else moves on to the next room?
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