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Old 2010-11-08, 22:10   Link #18601
Cao Ni Ma
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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
The problem is more ninjaing oneself from the parlor to the chapel, then back. That means swapping places and outfits twice.

By the way, who killed George?
Yeah, I think I mentioned that In this very thread. I think its great fun seeing Shanon fretting over changing clothes and running to the chapel and locking herself inside as Kanon. Just to switch back and run into the parlor for George later.

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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
...What?
Beatrice name being something thats inherited was introduced on that very episode, It might just be a red herring but its something to consider. As to who might still be alive by that time to inherit that name is a mystery! I like to believe that Maria survived that encounter by being resuscitated and then later locks window latches and doors to complete closed rooms. She later got really Happy and used a winchester to kill her former master and inherit her name but thats a little to much right?
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Old 2010-11-08, 22:11   Link #18602
Kaisos Erranon
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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
Yeah but the person doing the faking has no way to actually know that. Suppose Rosa, overcome by the sight of a dead body, faints on the couch and is left in the care of Hideyoshi in the parlor while everyone else moves on to the next room?
That's the whole gamble thing, though. Yasu has absolutely no idea whether or not the chain is going to work as planned, but that's half the fun for him/her, if what we've been told about Beatrice is true.

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As to who might still be alive by that time to inherit that name is a mystery!
That. That's sort of what I'm trying to get at.

Among the named 18 people on the island, living or dead, there is no one that could have killed Nanjo. And yet, Nanjo still died.

This really shouldn't be that hard, but it appears we're the only three people in this thread.
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Old 2010-11-08, 22:16   Link #18603
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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
That's the whole gamble thing, though. Yasu has absolutely no idea whether or not the chain is going to work as planned, but that's half the fun for him/her, if what we've been told about Beatrice is true.
Think of it as a mystery story. Accident and chance and blind luck shouldn't be permitted in the detective's investigation. Why should we permit accident, chance, and blind luck in the machinations of the culprit? It's equally unfair and equally disappointing from a literary standpoint. If you're going to create an unbroken chain by faking your death three times as two separate people, your plan can't "possibly" fail. It must be set up such that it will not fail absent deliberate agency on the part of someone to uncover it.
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Old 2010-11-08, 22:20   Link #18604
Kaisos Erranon
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Why should we permit accident, chance, and blind luck in the machinations of the culprit?
I dunno, maybe because risk vs reward is a main theme of the story?

I'm not saying it makes sense logically, and I'm not saying it would work in reality. As much as I hate to admit it, I'm saying that it works because it's fiction (within the context of the metaplot, even), and ridiculous one-in-a-million chances like that can happen within such a context.
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Old 2010-11-08, 22:22   Link #18605
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I actually think we must be less accomodating of chance in fiction. In any good mystery, if I'm the culprit and my plan requires that I incapacitate myself twice, I need a way to be certain that anyone trying to ascertain my death concludes that I am dead and then leaves me alone. Unless the behavior of the adults is controllable (and note that if it is controllable, the ninja act is not even necessary; they just lie about Kanon), you can't take that risk. I mean you can, but it's dumb from the perspective of the culprit-as-character and the author-as-scenario-inventor.
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Old 2010-11-08, 22:23   Link #18606
Cao Ni Ma
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Faking your own death has been used in detective novels by culprits before. It usually involved them doing it to get a rock solid alibi before they did the actual killings. Doing it twice in a row is a little too much but I wouldn't count RK07 doing it for the shock value.

Anyways I dont like to believe in the Shkanon thing because its been pretty obvious so far and everything that you tried to carry into Umineko from Higurashi almost always blew up in your face. Right now it would be a bigger shock to the readers to reveal that Shanon and Kanon really are two different people rather than the same.
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Old 2010-11-08, 22:25   Link #18607
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Faking your death is fine. I'm just saying if you're doing it, make sure someone deciding not to leave the room doesn't totally hose you. Have a handler in the group that discovers you get people out of the area or make a situation so immediately important they can't stay there.
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Old 2010-11-08, 22:26   Link #18608
Kaisos Erranon
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I actually think we must be less accomodating of chance in fiction.
Normally I'd agree with you, but again, THEMES. Also, this is Umineko and I'm more willing to accept shit like this after being lied to by everything, constantly.

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I mean you can, but it's dumb from the perspective of the culprit-as-character and the author-as-scenario-inventor.
No one has ever exactly said that Yasu has the best judgement. I'm not saying that YASU IS CRAZY SO ANYTHING GOES, but this IS a person who decided to blow up an entire island because a fat guy hid a letter from a pretty boy she knew for a combined total of like five days.

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Have a handler in the group that discovers you get people out of the area or make a situation so immediately important they can't stay there.
Isn't this exactly what Nanjo is doing?
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Old 2010-11-08, 22:34   Link #18609
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If Nanjo did anything, the script doesn't say. The only things I can find are that they wake Nanjo before they go poking around (this is before any bodies are seen, so if anything it makes me more suspect of the parents than of Nanjo). And then later Battler's narration discusses what Nanjo's diagnosis was. As far as I know, no mention of anyone "handling" the adults comes up. Nanjo is one of the people who worries about closing up crime scenes, but he's not always the first to suggest this... it's often one of the adults...
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Old 2010-11-08, 22:38   Link #18610
Kaisos Erranon
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it's often one of the adults...
Whenever this comes up, I usually end up throwing up my hands and proclaiming that everyone but Battler is in on it.

Hell, that's probably true some of the time.
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Old 2010-11-08, 22:40   Link #18611
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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
Whenever this comes up, I usually end up throwing up my hands and proclaiming that everyone but Battler is in on it.

Hell, that's probably true some of the time.
Well there's what Beatrice says to Rosa in ep2. It could be any of the siblings. Any of the siblings who does what? Gets the letter? Usually Maria gets the letter. Who helps Beatrice? Who plays the role of the handler? Who gets contacted? We see it happen directly with Rosa and we see the immediate consequence of that (Rosa is the "survivor").
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I submit that a murder was committed in 1996.
This murder was a "copycat" crime inspired by our tales of 1986.
This story is a redacted confession.

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Old 2010-11-08, 22:48   Link #18612
Kaisos Erranon
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Well there's what Beatrice says to Rosa in ep2. It could be any of the siblings. Any of the siblings who does what? Gets the letter? Usually Maria gets the letter. Who helps Beatrice? Who plays the role of the handler? Who gets contacted? We see it happen directly with Rosa and we see the immediate consequence of that (Rosa is the "survivor").
I have this image of Yasu spinning a giant roulette wheel at the beginning of every game to determine which adult s/he'll bribe into helping him/her. There's another roulette wheel for who dies in which twilight, although it's broken and tends to point to certain people more often than others.

They're both stored right next to the radioactive gold, it's just that everyone was too stunned by its magnificence to pay much attention to their surroundings.
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Old 2010-11-08, 23:09   Link #18613
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
Well there's what Beatrice says to Rosa in ep2. It could be any of the siblings. Any of the siblings who does what? Gets the letter? Usually Maria gets the letter. Who helps Beatrice? Who plays the role of the handler? Who gets contacted? We see it happen directly with Rosa and we see the immediate consequence of that (Rosa is the "survivor").
This is what I keep saying. One of the siblings is chosen as 'the key.' This key is supposed to guide Battler through the epitaph (or rather, guide him away from seeing more than he's supposed to, I bet.) At least until they get suspicious and just dump him or shoot him in the end.

This is above Genji, Kumasawa, Nanjo, Shannon and Kanon who are already in on it. And probably Maria, Jessica and I'm starting to think even Krauss was in on it. On top of that, I think Rudolf knows something fishy is going on and would not be surprised if Kyrie also knows about his suspicions.

8)

EDIT: This doesn't tell us anything too useful, as we all guess that the Epitaph game doesn't actually lead to murders. But we can use this theory to subtract what we thought were suspicious activities, that is Rosa lying about seeing Kinzo, for example.
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Old 2010-11-08, 23:13   Link #18614
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By the way, who killed George?
I say it was Captain Ahab.
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Old 2010-11-08, 23:31   Link #18615
Kaisos Erranon
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I'm TRYING to suggest that the fact that Nanjo died at all would imply that there is a person on the island that we have never, ever seen.

Yes yes I know Mysterious Person X. That is exactly what the final reds in Ep6 tell us must be true, if you ask me.
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Old 2010-11-08, 23:33   Link #18616
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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
I'm TRYING to suggest that the fact that Nanjo died at all would imply that there is a person on the island that we have never, ever seen.

Yes yes I know Mysterious Person X. That is exactly what the final reds in Ep6 tell us must be true, if you ask me.
The culprit is Kawabata! What? He was mentioned early on in the story...
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Old 2010-11-08, 23:34   Link #18617
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I'm just amused by how people are acting like Yasu (assuming she's the culprit) relying on luck or anything is at all an asspull, considering roulettes and risky gambles and shit have been a plot point in Beatrice's character since day one. It's what "magic" is, and you can bitch and moan all you want about how that's not how a MYSTERY does things, but a MYSTERY story also doesn't have multiple planes of reality where non-objective memetic entities debate the genre of the story from a 4th wall perspective.

Ryukishi plays with the mystery genre, but he's made no attempt to make us think this work is compliant to it, or obligated to be so in any way. The only characters that really ever tried to make that claim was the bad guy and her furniture, and some other dude who realizes things can be way more lax if the setup allows for it.
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Old 2010-11-08, 23:35   Link #18618
Kaisos Erranon
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The culprit is Kawabata! What? He was mentioned early on in the story.
If it's ANYBODY mentioned in the first game it's Asumu. I doubt it is, though.

Whoever it is must be Hachijou's informant, which she does have because there's no other way she could posses the information she does.
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Old 2010-11-08, 23:37   Link #18619
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HOLY FUCK! I've just realised something. So, in Umineko we've got a bomb, right? What's the name of one of the most famous bombs in history? Fat Boy.

Bomb = Fat Boy = George

Ha!

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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
If it's ANYBODY mentioned in the first game it's Asumu. I doubt it is, though.
OH! That's entirely possible as well. You see, Asumu became a vengeful ghost like Oiwa from Yotsuya Kaidan. She's back to punish Rudolph, his mistress and to protect her child and those who were beloved to her.
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Old 2010-11-08, 23:41   Link #18620
Judoh
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If it's ANYBODY mentioned in the first game it's Asumu. I doubt it is, though.

Whoever it is must be Hachijou's informant, which she does have because there's no other way she could posses the information she does.
Say what you want about Asumu, but at least Captain Kawabata is a character. Asumu would just be an asspull on Ryukishi's part.

I was mostly joking though. I like to think that the way EVA progressed the game to after Nanjo died when she proclaimed everyone dead means something.
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