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Old 2010-11-09, 14:54   Link #18681
Pikumin
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Originally Posted by Cao Ni Ma View Post
I always believed the letter was placed by Maria as she's the common link in both cases and she's been known to have letters before. Also the reason why she would use them is clear, she just wants to break up the groups that are formed that lock themselves inside a room. She doesn't care if she's part of the group cause she knows she wont be killed afterwards. In EP3 she does the same thing with Rosa except that time she didn't use a letter.
I somehow don't think Maria would do that. If we've learned anything about Maria, it's that she is completely gullible and believes in magic and Beatrice 100%. To put a letter down and say Beatrice did it with magic contradicts her beliefs I think.

Edit: In EP1 in Kinzo's study, I think it was Kumasawa who put the letter down, since Maria also acknowledges her as a "Beatrice"(and if Nanjo or someone else tried to put the letter down Maria probably would probably say so).
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Old 2010-11-09, 14:59   Link #18682
UsagiTenpura
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Arc 4 explains in Maria's diary that Beatrice would play pranks on everyone else with Maria and sometimes these pranks didn't work.

So yeah Maria is 100% able to participate in a magic trick.
Maria isn't as stupid as you make her to be. Arc 4 goes a lot into how she's actually very mature and choses to perceive things that way, something that Ange grows to admire and see as a strenght.
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Old 2010-11-09, 15:08   Link #18683
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Arc 4 goes a lot into how she's actually very mature and choses to perceive things that way, something that Ange grows to admire and see as a strenght.
Oh yeah. I guess I forgot that in light of the Maria vs Erika fight in EP6.
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Old 2010-11-09, 15:08   Link #18684
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I always thought it was Natsuhi who put the letter down. I mean, she was the closest to it when she 'noticed' it.

It's the same with the letter in the parlor that Rosa used as an excuse to drive Battler away. Rosa put it down.

EDIT: About Maria though, I think she's capable, but I don't think Beatrice has any plans for her to do so. I think Maria is be used, as she was before as the magic observer.
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Old 2010-11-09, 15:11   Link #18685
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The problem is that Genji, Kumasawa and Nanjo also seem to be part of Beatrice's group; so, they could easily have done it in EP1.

Something I have realised, though, is that whilst Maria dislikes people denying paranormal things like witches and magic, her reactions seem to be stronger whenever Battler is the one to say these things. So, it makes me wonder if Yasu ever told Maria about him - which I doubt because she doesn't seem to remember him when they met again.

But, straying a bit from that topic, something that always takes place in all games (I think) is George putting that ribbon on the flower Maria found, and George proposing to Shannon. The first one seems to be rather coincidental, since it makes you wonder if anyone would have expected Maria would find this flower (in a garden full of them) and react the way she did, unless, of course, someone left that flower in that state deliberately, and knew for sure Maria would react this way. Anyway, this flower is what allows Maria to meet Beatrice (or Eva-Beatrice, or Kinzo or Erika). So, we can tell its relevance. Now, what sort of relevance would George proposing to Shannon has to the story? Something we can tell rather easily, is that during this time, George is not under Battler's surveillance. Of course, R07 said he wouldn't lie about scenes like this, so I guess we can sort of trust the proposal scene did happen, and it wasn't George rendezvousing with his accomplices and sorting out some final matters before the murders start.

There are some other things from George, which are rather suspicious. In EP7, Will said that EP1's final closed room (i.e. Maria singing in the parlour) was an illusion. The one who said the room was locked was George. So, I'd say that was rather suspicious. Not only that, but the events in EP2 regarding the closed room in Natsuhi's room are rather weird as well - of course, that could be unrelated to George and he just happened to be a victim of the circumstances. But there are also the events in EP3 and EP4. In the former, he somehow went out of the Guest House without going downstairs and, apparently, without being noticed, only to end up dead in the mansion's parlour. Then we have EP4, in which we're shown him dying from a cross-counter between him and Jessica, but when Battler finds him, he has a hole in the head - which is rather weird, because with the exception of him and Kyrie, everyone else seems to have had their heads partly destroyed. In addition, Jessica seemed to have known where his corpse was, when she should have had no means to know about this, since she could not see that part of the garden from her room.
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Old 2010-11-09, 15:12   Link #18686
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Originally Posted by Pikumin View Post
I somehow don't think Maria would do that. If we've learned anything about Maria, it's that she is completely gullible and believes in magic and Beatrice 100%. To put a letter down and say Beatrice did it with magic contradicts her beliefs I think.

Edit: In EP1 in Kinzo's study, I think it was Kumasawa who put the letter down, since Maria also acknowledges her as a "Beatrice"(and if Nanjo or someone else tried to put the letter down Maria probably would probably say so).
I dont know, if Maria wants to prove thats she's a witch she's gonna do everything she can to convince everyone around her that magic exist. I think she's quite conscious on how magic exists, that it must be accepted by someone else as such. Which would explain how happy she was at Battler in that scene in EP2.

I also think that Maria has consistently played puzzle games with everyone while she's alive and the first letter by Beatrice is always an invitation to play a game with her.
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Old 2010-11-09, 15:41   Link #18687
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There are some other things from George, which are rather suspicious. In EP7, Will said that EP1's final closed room (i.e. Maria singing in the parlour) was an illusion. The one who said the room was locked was George. So, I'd say that was rather suspicious. Not only that, but the events in EP2 regarding the closed room in Natsuhi's room are rather weird as well - of course, that could be unrelated to George and he just happened to be a victim of the circumstances. But there are also the events in EP3 and EP4. In the former, he somehow went out of the Guest House without going downstairs and, apparently, without being noticed, only to end up dead in the mansion's parlour. Then we have EP4, in which we're shown him dying from a cross-counter between him and Jessica, but when Battler finds him, he has a hole in the head - which is rather weird, because with the exception of him and Kyrie, everyone else seems to have had their heads partly destroyed. In addition, Jessica seemed to have known where his corpse was, when she should have had no means to know about this, since she could not see that part of the garden from her room.
If you haven't seen it yet, Judoh's signature provides a pretty convincing profile and list of suspicions on George. I think we're all pretty much convinced he's doing something very bad behind everyone's back.

Beatrice: "Can you guess at who possibly could have..."
Battler: <Points to George> "Key!" "Culprit!"
Beatrice: "...."
Beatrice: "Very well, we shall move on to the next scene..."

Another pretty interesting thing is the Candy in a Cup scene in EP6. Maria attempts to show Erika that she can cast a spell to put a candy in a cup, but at least in EP7 it shows that Maria isn't the one doing sleight-of-hand-tricks. So the theory goes that it's either George or Jessica who's done it. Well, knowing what we know from Judoh's analysis on George's magic capability it's most likely George did it for her...

Which makes you wonder who taught who. Did George teach Yasu? Or Yasu teach George?
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Old 2010-11-09, 15:46   Link #18688
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Or maybe they've learnt it from different sources. A sleight-of-hand trick is not really rare or even hard to learn.
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Old 2010-11-09, 15:52   Link #18689
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Well I for one am really not convinced George is a bad person.
All the arguments I have seen are things like "he's staring outside he must be suspicious" or generally claiming his whole love story is a scam and that he's a manipulative bastard.

In light of people hiding Kinzo's death, trying to backstab each other for money, having insane twisted jealous for 18 years, being a terriblly neglecting mother or pretenting to be two people at once, I think George is basically a saint.

Hell Kumasawa is a LOT more suspicious in my book. At least she clearly knows more then she says even while murders are occuring.
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Old 2010-11-09, 15:55   Link #18690
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If you haven't seen it yet, Judoh's signature provides a pretty convincing profile and list of suspicions on George. I think we're all pretty much convinced he's doing something very bad behind everyone's back.
Well George IS the main culprit. His fat can shape up into a key and create or destroy any closed room.

As for when he dies and it is confirmed in red, he avoids death by the same means as Yasu; that is, he abandons the personality of "George"(killing him in a sense) and takes up the personality of FATFATFATFAT.
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Old 2010-11-09, 16:20   Link #18691
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I only read the translated part of EP7 so far I read some (not many) Yasu stuff.
Spoiler for EP7:


Sorry for the "bad" English, I am French and I am writing as I am thinking, so it is a bit weird.
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Old 2010-11-09, 16:44   Link #18692
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Well I for one am really not convinced George is a bad person.
All the arguments I have seen are things like "he's staring outside he must be suspicious" or generally claiming his whole love story is a scam and that he's a manipulative bastard.

In light of people hiding Kinzo's death, trying to backstab each other for money, having insane twisted jealous for 18 years, being a terriblly neglecting mother or pretenting to be two people at once, I think George is basically a saint.

Hell Kumasawa is a LOT more suspicious in my book. At least she clearly knows more then she says even while murders are occuring.
I think that was what was so great about the 3 conspiracies interacting with each other. Namely the Hide Kinzo conspiracy and the Epitaph Game. What we have are people most likely not commiting murders with these plots but yet it still causes enough noise since they have to lie and sneak around. And with the Epitaph game, dress up fake corpses! This ends up making everyone suspicious.

Then there's also the skeletons in the closet like Beatrice 2, the man from 19 years ago, etc. etc.

I think we're suspicious of George is independent of these other suspicious activites since we've kinda unwrapped them by now. With George, you have direct statements as to being jealous of how Battler was able to talk to Shannon and his lack of hesitation at ordering the servants around. This is addition to his knowledge and support of magic gives him enough clues not just to be suspicious but to actually be the one character to cause problems. (The jealousy.)

If you look at Kumasawa and what we're told of Virgilia, while she does act suspicious, I don't remember any clues suggesting malice, like there is with George.

(There's also the siblings where some has displayed the ability to show malice but, there's also the opportunity to factor in. i.e. while the siblings are 'dead' after the first twilight, George is most often not... etc.)
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Old 2010-11-09, 16:49   Link #18693
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George seems like a square peg trying to be fit into a series of round holes (lol fat joke). Something is clearly off about him, yet taken as a whole his character just doesn't seem to match up with any of our expectations of the "proper" culprit. Which means he either isn't, or he's very good at hiding his association, or there's critical details we've totally missed.
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Old 2010-11-09, 16:55   Link #18694
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The thing is George is the manipulated one. He fell in love and is about to discard everything for the sake of a "character" played by Yasu.

If you're willing to claim that he knows about Shkanon and manipulating her, it means you deny the validy of what George told Shannon about his past, which is where we learn he used to be jealous of Battler.

You can't just decide that what he says is only half true out of convenience to fit a theory perfectly.

I guess it's possible he finds out at the conference, flips out and decides to kill everyone, but that makes the whole epitaph murders pointless.
If anything he seems like someone Yasu could manipulate into killing the family but not the mastermind to me.
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Old 2010-11-09, 17:11   Link #18695
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The thing is George is the manipulated one. He fell in love and is about to discard everything for the sake of a "character" played by Yasu.

If you're willing to claim that he knows about Shkanon and manipulating her, it means you deny the validy of what George told Shannon about his past, which is where we learn he used to be jealous of Battler.

You can't just decide that what he says is only half true out of convenience to fit a theory perfectly.

I guess it's possible he finds out at the conference, flips out and decides to kill everyone, but that makes the whole epitaph murders pointless.
If anything he seems like someone Yasu could manipulate into killing the family but not the mastermind to me.
You are dead wrong. I say he manipulates Shannon exactly BECAUSE he was jealous of Battler.

And I've never called him a bad person or used half truths in his statements. I let what he says speak for itself. You are making assumptions.
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Old 2010-11-09, 17:13   Link #18696
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The thing is George is the manipulated one. He fell in love and is about to discard everything for the sake of a "character" played by Yasu.
The ring leaders do seem to be George and Shannon, for some reason. It seems to be a matter of deciding who's in charge.

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Originally Posted by UsagiTenpura View Post
If you're willing to claim that he knows about Shkanon and manipulating her, it means you deny the validy of what George told Shannon about his past, which is where we learn he used to be jealous of Battler.

You can't just decide that what he says is only half true out of convenience to fit a theory perfectly.
Not sure what you're getting at. Can you be more specific? What is the thing he told her about his past?
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Old 2010-11-09, 17:18   Link #18697
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Being told I'm making assumption by someone who just twists every words George says to their own assumption is a bit funny.

I really don't get how you can act as if it was proven.
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Old 2010-11-09, 17:21   Link #18698
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Being told I'm making assumption by someone who just twists every words George says to their own assumption is a bit funny.

I really don't get how you can act as if it was proven.
Twisting? I don't have to do any twisting. He's very direct about what he believes and what he knows. He makes all of the clues about himself pretty clear.

and proven? When did I say that? If anything the fact that Kyrie has her own tea party makes me think I could be wrong.
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Old 2010-11-09, 17:33   Link #18699
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Well imo you're seeing way too much out of these scenes.

George as the culprit can only work in a "he's the mastermind and not the murderer" way and that ends up confusing everything and going back to an everyone is the culprit theory, or a Beatrice is the culprit but has the sad excuse of being manipulated into it.

It's not a solution that solves enough of anything to satisfy me. It basically makes everything more complex to try to fit it in.
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Old 2010-11-09, 17:42   Link #18700
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Yeah, most of the theories that have someone other than Yasu commit the actual murders is that they require another person doing the killing for them. Or someone that had the perfect alibi of being dead and not really being it. If thats the case then just about anyone could be the culprit given enough interpretation.
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