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Old 2010-11-04, 13:10   Link #101
Shadow5YA
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Originally Posted by Himeji View Post
Exactly. I mentioned that already at an earlier time.

Spoiler for rest of reply:
1.) The topic for debate is and always has been that the anime will have a bad influence on Kirino. This is why Kirino's father wants to confiscate everything. Kyousuke compared eroge to Kirino's modeling. Because the father accepted Kirino's modeling, then there's no reason he couldn't accept the anime.

2.) Because R-18 games aren't illegal, the topic of concern is not legality, but influence. Kirino is obviously not 18, so she has no business owning a R-18 labelled game. Both Kyousuke and his father agreed on this.

3.) Because Kyousuke is an adult, there is nothing morally wrong with him owning the eroge, other than it being an unproductive and socially unpopular hobby. This is why their argument ends with Kyousuke getting punched over owning an eroge. He did not proclaim himself as a fan of anime or being an otaku in general.

4.) The VN-like option is just visual evidence of Kirino's eroge influencing Kyousuke more and more as the story progresses. In the laters novel, he makes more comparisons to visual novels.


Lastly, I would stick to asserting claims based on the series at hand and refrain from making ad hominem statements like calling others "learn-resistant." Ungrounded statements like that make it difficult to take the person seriously in any argument.
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Old 2010-11-05, 18:52   Link #102
Himeji
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Originally Posted by Shadow5YA View Post
1.) The topic for debate is and always has been that the anime will have a bad influence on Kirino. This is why Kirino's father wants to confiscate everything.
That's just an unfounded claim by the father which is based on his prejudice, which in turn is based on biased, poorly written sensationalist articles in the yellow press, like that "Sycalypse incident" article.
The claim is totally wrong because anime and eroge have no bad influence whatsoever on Kirino - she's great at school, a good athlete etc.

Spoiler for rest of reply:
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Old 2010-11-05, 20:24   Link #103
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Why are we talking about the father when this thread is about Kirino... doesn't the dad have his own thread?
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Old 2010-11-05, 20:42   Link #104
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"To understand the present, you must understand the past." We look at how Kirino grew up to see why she is how she is now.
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Old 2010-11-06, 01:28   Link #105
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Originally Posted by Shadow5YA View Post
1.) The topic for debate is and always has been that the anime will have a bad influence on Kirino. This is why Kirino's father wants to confiscate everything. Kyousuke compared eroge to Kirino's modeling. Because the father accepted Kirino's modeling, then there's no reason he couldn't accept the anime.
Exactly, and that was Kyosuke's counter-argument and the father did retract that prejudice. ( at least on the non-18 stuff)

The problem is that someone refuse to acknowledge that the father agreed on the non-Eroge part of Kyosuke's argument despise it being show on the anime. (which is incredibly weird if you ask me..)



Quote:
Originally Posted by Shadow5YA View Post
2.) Because R-18 games aren't illegal, the topic of concern is not legality, but influence. Kirino is obviously not 18, so she has no business owning a R-18 labelled game. Both Kyousuke and his father agreed on this.

3.) Because Kyousuke is an adult, there is nothing morally wrong with him owning the eroge, other than it being an unproductive and socially unpopular hobby. This is why their argument ends with Kyousuke getting punched over owning an eroge. He did not proclaim himself as a fan of anime or being an otaku in general.
.

I didn't think anyone is disagree with those other than that Kyosuke is only 17 and not an adult (unless he was married, you're a legal adult if you are married before age of 18 and depend on area you are free to have sex as young as 13.)

But as Hameji said , that not really what the argument was for.

The issue here is that the same people are making argument basing that ACG=Eroge=R-18=illegal=bad which is completely not true and claim that the father ignorantly shift ALL BLAMES [not partial, R-18 only] to Kyosuke and still believe Kirino is not into ACG which is not true at all. All the while refuse to take in any factual evidence.
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Old 2010-11-07, 19:37   Link #106
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I don't like Kirino much, her ways of thinking and treating people is completly off. She wants to be friends with Ayase who seriously doesn't care about real her, and is avoiding people who actually do care.

She really should re-think things and make new list of priorities. So far she didn't deserve to have such understanding people (brother, Kuroneku, Saori) around her.
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Old 2010-11-07, 19:47   Link #107
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I hate to ask this but isn't little bit odd for female otaku like Kirino indulges herself on something that more for men, like the eroge she played. No I'm not generalizing how male and female otakus should look like but I don't think someone like her exist in real-life, I mean real-life female otakus I have seen so far are more interested in fujioshi, bishounen and yaoi stuffs.

I also think the author of light novel maybe hates such otakus and made a male otaku that trapped inside in a body of a 14-years old girl.
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Old 2010-11-07, 20:14   Link #108
Seitsuki
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That's the whole point. The series has realistic themes, but is in no way a commentary on reality. At heart it's basically a light romantic comedy; if you ignore the whole "sibling" thing then you realise that it's playing out rather typically (tsundere girl discovers true meaning of friendship, finds herself, et al and on..)

Quote:
I don't like Kirino much, her ways of thinking and treating people is completly off. She wants to be friends with Ayase who seriously doesn't care about real her, and is avoiding people who actually do care.

She really should re-think things and make new list of priorities. So far she didn't deserve to have such understanding people (brother, Kuroneku, Saori) around her.
Well that's the whole point, she's been living a completely different life to what she is trying to attain up until now and obviously is unable to quickly change. She still wants to hang on to her old friends and ways because to her that is stability; it's a life which she was reasonably happy with and she's afraid of losing that. In short, she desperately wants to keep both her friends and her eroge as stated in ep 5. Sure she's not doing a great job and her methods are (... xD ) but the point is she's changing and growing up. Give her some time huh?
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Old 2010-11-07, 23:48   Link #109
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Kirino has a very compartmentalized life, and this is probably fairly common for people with a wide and varied set of interests and/or talents. Each "compartment" of her life does indeed reflect part of who she is, and in fact each "compartment" probably stands for a part of herself.

This I can relate to. When I was in high school, I was in a few different social circles. One was student politics, another was something akin to an otaku group (friends who I shared particular 'nerd' interests with), and another was long-standing friendships with people who held more traditional interests, shall we say. These social circles were fairly distinctive from one another, and there were different sides of myself that kind of naturally came out when I was amongst each such circle.

As a teenager, I wouldn't want to sacrifice either of these social circles, as they each reflected part of who I am. So, in this respect, I can understand why Kirino wants to hold on to her long-standing friendships, even if her entertainment interests are far different from theirs.
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Old 2010-11-08, 02:27   Link #110
Seitsuki
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I think this harks back to the age old question "who are we really?" because as Triple_R has pointed out we all behave differently around different people. For example, the "me" around my friends is very different to the "me" around my parents, teachers, myself (lol) etc. Yet they all make up who I am.

Kirino has the part of her which enjoys anime/manga/eroge/otaku culture, and the her which is the stereotypical cool perfect student; the problem for her is that she thinks these two are mutually exclusive and cannot fathom bringing them together. For this reason she tries to hide her hobbies from her school friends, and attempts to ditch her fancy fashionable persona when around Saori and co. Only later developments will show if she can somehow reconcile the two.

And I'm sure I'm not the only one here when I say I'm rooting for a Kirino ending :P
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Old 2010-11-08, 03:40   Link #111
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Originally Posted by Seitsuki View Post
I think this harks back to the age old question "who are we really?" because as Triple_R has pointed out we all behave differently around different people. For example, the "me" around my friends is very different to the "me" around my parents, teachers, myself (lol) etc. Yet they all make up who I am.

Kirino has the part of her which enjoys anime/manga/eroge/otaku culture, and the her which is the stereotypical cool perfect student; the problem for her is that she thinks these two are mutually exclusive and cannot fathom bringing them together. For this reason she tries to hide her hobbies from her school friends, and attempts to ditch her fancy fashionable persona when around Saori and co. Only later developments will show if she can somehow reconcile the two.

And I'm sure I'm not the only one here when I say I'm rooting for a Kirino ending :P
That's because it's going to happen
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Old 2010-11-08, 05:07   Link #112
Kamonichan
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And I'm sure I'm not the only one here when I say I'm rooting for a Kirino ending :P
In harem-style anime, I always root for a harem ending. No broken hearts.

And I have to disagree with you, Seitsuki. This show to me seems very much a commentary on social reality. I mean, it's actively bringing up issues such as how society wrongly perceives otaku, society's bias and prejudice, and social development. Kirino is mostly the focus, and we're seeing her development through the impartial Kyousuke's eyes. One of the underlying themes of the show is how people act counter to expectations, and the entire social commentary vibe is I think one of the best aspects of the show.
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Old 2010-11-08, 05:26   Link #113
Seitsuki
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Originally Posted by Kamonichan View Post
In harem-style anime, I always root for a harem ending. No broken hearts.

And I have to disagree with you, Seitsuki. This show to me seems very much a commentary on social reality. I mean, it's actively bringing up issues such as how society wrongly perceives otaku, society's bias and prejudice, and social development. Kirino is mostly the focus, and we're seeing her development through the impartial Kyousuke's eyes. One of the underlying themes of the show is how people act counter to expectations, and the entire social commentary vibe is I think one of the best aspects of the show.
Utter lies :P The only narrator more unreliable than Kyousuke I reckon would be Kyon (and even that's up for debate). Seriously, when you consider his words in the light novels (and therefore by extension the anime), it becomes rather obvious that there is a lot Kyousuke is hiding, or changing, or just plain getting wrong- his continued assertion that he still hates his sister and vice versa (up to the fifth freakin novel) just to name one.

On the other point, I don't believe it to be commentary simply for the fact that it is portraying reality. The situation IRL is (sortta) the situation depicted in the series, but what makes this simply the setting rather than commentary imo is that nothing much comes from it- sure Kirino has to fight with her otaku side and try to keep both sides but I believe this is character development for her rather than some more generalised depiction of the real world situation facing people.

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That's because it's going to happen
damn right it will. *salutes a brother*
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Old 2010-11-08, 06:17   Link #114
Kamonichan
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Utter lies :P The only narrator more unreliable than Kyousuke I reckon would be Kyon (and even that's up for debate). Seriously, when you consider his words in the light novels (and therefore by extension the anime), it becomes rather obvious that there is a lot Kyousuke is hiding, or changing, or just plain getting wrong- his continued assertion that he still hates his sister and vice versa (up to the fifth freakin novel) just to name one.

On the other point, I don't believe it to be commentary simply for the fact that it is portraying reality. The situation IRL is (sortta) the situation depicted in the series, but what makes this simply the setting rather than commentary imo is that nothing much comes from it- sure Kirino has to fight with her otaku side and try to keep both sides but I believe this is character development for her rather than some more generalised depiction of the real world situation facing people.
Sadly, I can't comment on the light novel, though I have to say I want to read it now. I haven't seen the "unreliable narrator" point-of-view done well in a long time. And I think Kyousuke making an effort to point out the flaws in the status quo of their reality is what makes this show a commentary, not that the show merely has a depiction of reality. Having it simply as a setting for Kirino's character development would be Kyousuke telling Kirino to accept herself over what society thinks, but Kyousuke is doing the opposite. He's going to society--i.e. their father and Ayase--and telling them to accept Kirino's hobby as part of her. So to me the show is being very blunt about its issues with reality, almost to the point of beating the audience over the head with them.
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Old 2010-11-08, 13:18   Link #115
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I have a personal theory regarding Kirino and some of her behaviour. Going by what she said in episode 5 (I also seem to recall a breif flashback in the manga hinting at this but I don't remember what chapter) I think her and Kyousuke had a closer relationship when they were kids and she probably adored her big brother at some point. However we know how often Kyousuke spent/spends time with Manami, meaning he constantly left Kirino alone. This could result in Kirino becoming bitter towards him, and explains their drifting apart and her fundamental dislike of Manami despite (by Kirino's own admission) not knowing much about her.

Kirino's love of little sisters could stem from her desire to compensate for this. She adores and dotes on little sisters, giving them what she didn't get and feels is the 'proper' way big brothers are supposed to act. Of course things get more complicated when you add in the whole having sex with them thing, but Kirino doesn't seem that focused on the porn part of it. Even so, sex in eroge is often portrayed as the ultimate expression of love but Kirino knows full well such a thing shouldn't be applied to reality.

Unlike most I don't foresee an incest ending. I think those going on about how Kirino is in love with Kyousuke are reading into things perhaps a bit too much. I think she's just rediscovering her love for him as a sibling and is happy he's giving her so much attention now but she's still mad at him for what he did before, resulting in her tsundereness.
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Old 2010-11-08, 14:15   Link #116
Kamonichan
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I have a personal theory regarding Kirino and some of her behaviour. Going by what she said in episode 5 (I also seem to recall a breif flashback in the manga hinting at this but I don't remember what chapter) I think her and Kyousuke had a closer relationship when they were kids and she probably adored her big brother at some point. However we know how often Kyousuke spent/spends time with Manami, meaning he constantly left Kirino alone. This could result in Kirino becoming bitter towards him, and explains their drifting apart and her fundamental dislike of Manami despite (by Kirino's own admission) not knowing much about her.

Kirino's love of little sisters could stem from her desire to compensate for this. She adores and dotes on little sisters, giving them what she didn't get and feels is the 'proper' way big brothers are supposed to act. Of course things get more complicated when you add in the whole having sex with them thing, but Kirino doesn't seem that focused on the porn part of it. Even so, sex in eroge is often portrayed as the ultimate expression of love but Kirino knows full well such a thing shouldn't be applied to reality.

Unlike most I don't foresee an incest ending. I think those going on about how Kirino is in love with Kyousuke are reading into things perhaps a bit too much. I think she's just rediscovering her love for him as a sibling and is happy he's giving her so much attention now but she's still mad at him for what he did before, resulting in her tsundereness.
You know, now that I think about it, the two scenes when we see her play in the eroge usually feature very young little sister characters. The sneak-into-bed scene and have-a-bath-together scene both show girls who haven't even hit puberty, it seems. If that's when she and Kyousuke first started drifting apart, then she may be trying to live vicariously through those characters. I find the prospect both fascinating and maybe a little sad, so hopefully within the next episode I'll see something to either substantiate or invalidate the theory.
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Old 2010-11-09, 09:48   Link #117
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I hate to ask this but isn't little bit odd for female otaku like Kirino indulges herself on something that more for men, like the eroge she played. No I'm not generalizing how male and female otakus should look like but I don't think someone like her exist in real-life, I mean real-life female otakus I have seen so far are more interested in fujioshi, bishounen and yaoi stuffs.

I also think the author of light novel maybe hates such otakus and made a male otaku that trapped inside in a body of a 14-years old girl.
I know a couple of female otaku friends who enjoyed Koihime and Sengoku Rance (haven't check other series yet). Don't generalise female otaku and put them into the same subcategory.


just like how one of my straight male friends loves reading yaoi~ :P
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Old 2010-11-09, 17:01   Link #118
Himeji
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I know a couple of female otaku friends who enjoyed Koihime and Sengoku Rance (haven't check other series yet). Don't generalise female otaku and put them into the same subcategory.
Claiming that females only watch yuri would be as odd as claiming that males only watch yuri

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just like how one of my straight male friends loves reading yaoi~ :P
Perhaps he's not as straight as you think he is
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Old 2010-11-09, 19:12   Link #119
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Kirino seemed a bit too clingy to Kyousuke in episode 6 (there was no physical contact shown between them of course, but her reactions every time she had screen time) She might even think that Kyousuke is going back to his old ways of visiting Minami over, and over again, since one visit can lead to future loops. Or that is what Kirino will think, or that Kyousuke will get too friendly with Minami, and that will get Kirino to be jealous over the fact she is going to lose her big brother to his childhood friend. So he might pull something on us

00-Raiser, you were thinking exactly what I was thinking. Kyousuke might have visited Minami alot when they were little, leaving Kirino to be all alone in the house. Possibly! Kirino might pull something to make sure this does not happen again.
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Old 2010-11-09, 19:51   Link #120
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As a teenager, I wouldn't want to sacrifice either of these social circles, as they each reflected part of who I am. So, in this respect, I can understand why Kirino wants to hold on to her long-standing friendships, even if her entertainment interests are far different from theirs.
Yeah, but there's a major difference between separating your social circles and bashing the unpopular one in the company of the popular one just to maintain your standing in the latter. It makes Kirino look like a hypocritical, selfish bitch or just a plain old idiot for wanting to so desperately please and hang out with such shallow, superficial creatures in the first place.

I mean, seriously. Her "best friend" Ayase goes all bunny boiler batsh*t insane after finding out Kirino's an otaku and drops her like a hot potato. Compare and contrast this with Saori calling her house so that she and Kuroneko could find out how she was doing in spite of the object of the concern having publicly denied knowing "weirdos" like them.

If anything, I would've loved to have had the scene in the park end with Kirono bitchslapping Ayase for being so judgemental and then called up Saori and Kuroneko to apologize.
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