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Old 2010-11-13, 09:01   Link #18781
Used Can
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Hmm... I cannot recall any scene like that one. But well, arc 4, despite being the one that supposedly contains the most hints, is the one I like the least... or, at the very least, it's rather boring to read, for most of it.

Can you post the dialogue you're talking about? (If it's too long, please just post the important bits.)
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Old 2010-11-13, 09:26   Link #18782
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You mean in Mandarin. I'm not sure if 耶蘇 is used for Mandarin areas, but I know it is used for sure in HK, where the Cantonese pronunciation is 'yeh soh.' There's a ton of other dialects of which I won't be able to talk about. If a dialect does come into play then it's probably Taiwanese, and therefore Hokkien. Like for the Epitaph puzzle.

Most likely Japanese picked up the usage of these kanji for Jesus from Chinese as well. But in Japanese it's pronounced 'ya so.'

Anyways, not sure if there's anything to be gained from this line of thinking, i.e. if Yasu was meant to be similar to Yeshua.
*shrug* When I say Chinese, I usually mean Putonghua (Mandarin) because it's the form I usually make use of.

I think we use "耶蘇" in most Chinese-speaking places, not just HK. It's the proper translation after all.
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Old 2010-11-13, 11:35   Link #18783
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You know, I was just wondering, has it been discussed before the fact that in EP7 there's no witch side at all? I mean, sure, there's Bern and AuAu, but they're part of the human/anti-fantasy side. They were the ones carrying out this episode.Of course, we've been told that Featherine has supposedly arrived to the truth of the game, and thus, that's why she was able to write EP3-6. Now, I don't want to begin to question how many things Featherine actually got right, since that'd cast far too much uncertainty on the veracity of the information we've received on anything past EP2. Of course, this subject has already been brought up several times here and in many other places, but that's not what I want to focus right now.

Anyway, taking back my main point, EP7 was a game which was ran fully by the anti-fantasy side, whereas, so far, the ones running the games have always been the anti-mystery side. Of course, Bern did say she lost the game (on EP6). So, if that means the game is over, then that'd explain why she and AuAu are the ones running the game, but, either way, I'm sure something that caught most people's attention was that, in EP7, the fantasy-side characters were basically nowhere to be seen, which makes me wonder if there's a meaning to it.

Now now, before we go into how EP7 was a massive troll and that we should forget about it, I want to say that's not my intention. In fact, EP7 did prove some of my theories right and, even though I've been vocal about how much I dislike ShKanon, EP7 did give me a sort-of human Beatrice; so, I can just suck it up, and be happy with that much. What I'm intending to ask is, how do you think all this information is going to be filtered and encompassed in EP8 (of course, this goes under the assumption that we'll get a relatively clear answer for the most important issues)?
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Old 2010-11-13, 12:08   Link #18784
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Originally Posted by Used Can View Post
You know, I was just wondering, has it been discussed before the fact that in EP7 there's no witch side at all? I mean, sure, there's Bern and AuAu, but they're part of the human/anti-fantasy side.
Um, Zepar and Furfur.

Whose side are they on again? What role do they seem most tightly associated with? Yeah, think about that for a second.

As for "no witch side," I'm not sure what merged timelines, a facially absurd Cinderella story, a mysterious stage on which characters are pulled to discuss story events, and Will fighting Bern to defend a piece of fiction are if they're not blatantly magical and probably somehow witch-side in some way.

Also if you want to get really really technical, the presence of BATTLER and Virgilia in the opening scene constitutes an act on the part of the witch side.
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Old 2010-11-13, 12:15   Link #18785
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Um, Zepar and Furfur.

Whose side are they on again? What role do they seem most tightly associated with? Yeah, think about that for a second.
I forgot about them, but, either way, they just showed up during Clair's play, and that was pretty much part of Bern's set-up. So, I wouldn't know if I should classify them as fantasy-side players, this time around.

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As for "no witch side," I'm not sure what merged timelines, a facially absurd Cinderella story, a mysterious stage on which characters are pulled to discuss story events, and Will fighting Bern to defend a piece of fiction are if they're not blatantly magical and probably somehow witch-side in some way.

Also if you want to get really really technical, the presence of BATTLER and Virgilia in the opening scene constitutes an act on the part of the witch side.
With witch side, I meant the anti-mystery/fantasy side. BATTLER, Virgilia and 34 did show up, but they barely did anything. In fact, when it came down to the game itself, they didn't take part in it. Of course, the first bit with BATTLER and Virgilia seems to be somewhat related with the story we saw, but whether it is actually related or not, and if it is then how, remains unclear.
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Old 2010-11-13, 12:22   Link #18786
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Cynically, I would not be entirely inclined to say just what the "game" actually was. The implication when we finally see Bern and Featherine over the "board" is somewhat unclear because of when and how we see it, for example. Yes, Bern appears in what appears to be a game like setting and challenges a detective to do something. Does that automatically make that part the "game?"

Do we know for sure? It's like ep6. There's a game in it, but was that BATTLER's game or was the whole story "BATTLER's game?" Was "Beatrice's game" the game boards or the meta-objective she had in getting Battler where he is now?
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Old 2010-11-13, 12:58   Link #18787
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I think nothing prevents a game to be simply a farce where the result is already set. See EP5 for example.

The "witch side" is probably irrelevant, what you need is a GM and a player and then you have a game.

Note that in EP5 Lambda did practically nothing as a witch apart from creating and supporting the the riddle of the knock. Then she just created a piece Beato without even letting her see the gameboard and she sent her to the slaughter.


EP7 is not much different, there is Bern as a GM who created the piece Yasu/Lion/Clair and then she invited Will to play the game and kill her.
If in EP5 the witch side was represented by Beatrice, in EP7 the witch side is represented by Clair, which certainly spiced up her story with a lot of fantasy.
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Old 2010-11-13, 13:50   Link #18788
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Cynically, I would not be entirely inclined to say just what the "game" actually was. The implication when we finally see Bern and Featherine over the "board" is somewhat unclear because of when and how we see it, for example. Yes, Bern appears in what appears to be a game like setting and challenges a detective to do something. Does that automatically make that part the "game?"
Indeed, even if we were to consider this a game, it was rather different from all the games we've had so far. To begin with, this doesn't follow the usual format. Even EP6 sort of followed the killings to some extent, but EP7's board only involved Will asking questions. The Tea Party, I believe, wasn't part of the game, but merely the result of it.

In a way, I think you can say Will represents the readers to some extent. Notice how when he was in Rokkenjima and people started to tell him things, he went all "I already now that shit". In addition to his "please jump to the juicy bits" initial behaviour.

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The "witch side" is probably irrelevant, what you need is a GM and a player and then you have a game.
I could agree, but so far all the GMs we've had have been from the fantasy side. Even Battler switched sides before he became a GM. Of course, his reasons for switching and him becoming a GM may be unrelated, but, either way, during the time the game was running, the purpose of the game basically was: The GM (i.e. the fantasy side) poses a riddle which the mystery side either has to: a. solve as a mystery or b. surrender to the fantasy side.

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EP7 is not much different, there is Bern as a GM who created the piece Yasu/Lion/Clair and then she invited Will to play the game and kill her.
If in EP5 the witch side was represented by Beatrice, in EP7 the witch side is represented by Clair, which certainly spiced up her story with a lot of fantasy.
The problem is in this game there's no opposition. Even if Bern is the GM, she's favouring Will. Hell, you could even say he got everything on a silver tray. Even Clair, who you're referring to as the "witch side" of Bern's game was basically just spitting answers.
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Old 2010-11-13, 14:19   Link #18789
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Battler switched side but he never took an open fantasy position. When Erika stated that the game necessarily had to have a human culprit Battler didn't deny it.
EP6 wasn't anti-fantasy VS anti-mystery it was just a battle of wits on a clearly defined mystery scenario (at least until Beatrice took over).

As for Bern favoring Will, I think she didn't favor him much more than Lambda favored her. Both games had their result set in stone already.
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Old 2010-11-13, 14:31   Link #18790
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Battler switched side but he never took an open fantasy position. When Erika stated that the game necessarily had to have a human culprit Battler didn't deny it.
EP6 wasn't anti-fantasy VS anti-mystery it was just a battle of wits on a clearly defined mystery scenario (at least until Beatrice took over).
The problem is Erika had knowledge about the previous scenarios and now the Knox Rules were into play. So, I think going by "a witch did it," at this point, was useless, not to mention that would never have worked on Erika. This was more of an issue of: either you solve it, or I can keep on showing you as much fantasy as I please.

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As for Bern favoring Will, I think she didn't favor him much more than Lambda favored her. Both games had their result set in stone already.
It's hard to say. 34 definitely gave Bern a partial look into the game, this being the reason why she can use Red. However, even after EP5, Bern still hadn't reached any answer. Not to mention that 34 wanted to keep Bern trapped in this game. So, I doubt she'd just hand her over answers that easily. Will, on the other hand, got seriously spoon-fed with answers.
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Old 2010-11-13, 14:35   Link #18791
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Will has not been spoon fed with answers. What he actually required to solve in the end had little to none relevance to what Clair told him.

If he really was spoon fed as you say then everyone here could be telling the answers to all of Clair's riddles.

Bern simply wanted to expose Beatrice's guts, but the game was still challenging.

as for Erika knowing already that magic doesn't exist, the same goes for Will.
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Old 2010-11-13, 15:10   Link #18792
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Of course, Will still had to connect the dots. That's his use, since Bern cannot do that, as she has no love. But, either way, he was handed over information very easily. Of course, filtering the information and putting the pieces together is a tough work, but I'd say gathering the info is the hardest part, and for Will, that was given mostly for free.

As for Erika and Will, Erika was playing as BATTLER's opponent, could we say the same about Will and Bern? They were in the same side, if you ask me (until the Tea Party, of course).
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Old 2010-11-13, 15:34   Link #18793
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Yeah they were on the same side, but basically Lambda and Bern were also on the same side in EP5. We are kinda running in circle.
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Old 2010-11-13, 17:31   Link #18794
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Hm I guess there's a connection I cannot help but make now.
Shannon described the golden land as a land where you don't need to have your desires satisfied.
Parallel to that we have Amakusa, who preaches to Ange about a world of self-satisfaction, where you are content with what you have and who you are.
It seems to heavily imply the idea that reaching the golden land is reaching a level of "enlightment" that comes with a self-satisfaction.
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Old 2010-11-13, 17:52   Link #18795
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That's not entirely true. Shannon described it as a place where "everything is just right, and you have no desires to grant." Like a room where the temperature is just right, so you don't notice it.
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Old 2010-11-13, 18:56   Link #18796
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Parallel to that we have Amakusa, who preaches to Ange about a world of self-satisfaction, where you are content with what you have and who you are.
Looking back on that scene after playing EP6, I now find it quite eerie that he is saying that stuff to Ange considering that he is planning to kill her in just a short while.
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Old 2010-11-13, 20:29   Link #18797
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I'm not sure if this was mentioned before, but I just remembered something that hinted Beatrice's wound, back in EP3.

LAMBDA: "Because originally, you weren't even a witch, and at any time, I'll remind you what a truly shabby creature you were."

みすぼらしい存在


Well this might also refer to some kind of deformity, maybe she really is an intersex. The point is that this sentence hinted that Beatrice had something that made her look different than a normal human being.
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Old 2010-11-13, 21:46   Link #18798
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Man, I've suspected Beatrice was intersex ever since that line. It was only in EP7 when I felt it wasn't retarded of me to think so.

Quote:
Looking back on that scene after playing EP6, I now find it quite eerie that he is saying that stuff to Ange considering that he is planning to kill her in just a short while.
Technically, there's no proof that Amakusa has any intent to harm Ange.
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Old 2010-11-13, 22:37   Link #18799
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Man, I've suspected Beatrice was intersex ever since that line. It was only in EP7 when I felt it wasn't retarded of me to think so.
I'm still sort of doubting it. I can't see a Japanese writer ever creating an intersex character.... it's just too.... modern?
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Old 2010-11-14, 00:20   Link #18800
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I'm still sort of doubting it. I can't see a Japanese writer ever creating an intersex character.... it's just too.... modern?
PFFFFAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.

I'm sorry, the irony of this statement is hilarious. Intersex characters are more common in Eastern literature than Western. Them Asians love their dickgirls.
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