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Old 2010-11-14, 00:27   Link #18801
Used Can
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I think Yasu/Lion being intersex is a possibility, given the apparent importance on Yasu/Lion's androgyny. However, I don't see how falling from a cliff and being intersex can be related, though.

Either way, straying a bit from this topic, do you guys think there's a reason why Kanon never leaves a corpse? If ShKanon is true, I don't see why we couldn't have seen Kanon's corpse at least once, while having Shannon as the one who left no corpse. Of course, one could say that would have been too blatant of a hint, and that'd be true, but I wonder if there's another reason.

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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
Yeah they were on the same side, but basically Lambda and Bern were also on the same side in EP5.
I disagree, you could say they were together, but not on the same side. Say, the new info 34 showed in EP5 (i.e. kid from 19 years ago) actually confused Bern. Then, she didn't hand too much Red. The only time I remember her doing so was during the knock and letter scene, in which Bern had to persuade her, and that scene itself screams of trap more than anything else, along with the Reds 34 handed them. Finally, as soon as Battler reached the truth 34 supported him and this made Bern lose.
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Old 2010-11-14, 00:48   Link #18802
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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
PFFFFAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.

I'm sorry, the irony of this statement is hilarious. Intersex characters are more common in Eastern literature than Western. Them Asians love their dickgirls.
There is actually a manga called IS which stands for InterSex and it's entirely focused on intersex people.
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Old 2010-11-14, 00:58   Link #18803
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Originally Posted by Used Can View Post
I think Yasu/Lion being intersex is a possibility, given the apparent importance on Yasu/Lion's androgyny. However, I don't see how falling from a cliff and being intersex can be related, though.
Well, Lion never fell from a cliff so maybe the fall itself didn't have anything to do with being intersexed. (Being the brother of your mother could though.. )

Maybe the fall disfigured Yasu a lot? And Lion never suffered that disfigurement? So she is both deformed and intersexed leading her to believe no one would ever love her the way she was. Or maybe it's even worse, she's not even intersexed any more, it's just gone now. Thus that line in EP3 from Beatrice teasing Shannon about never having experienced sex with the FAT one. Ew.

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Originally Posted by Used Can View Post
Either way, straying a bit from this topic, do you guys think there's a reason why Kanon never leaves a corpse? If ShKanon is true, I don't see why we couldn't have seen Kanon's corpse at least once, while having Shannon as the one who left no corpse. Of course, one could say that would have been too blatant of a hint, and that'd be true, but I wonder if there's another reason.
Will said that:

Claire:「第2のゲーム、第二の晩。寄り添いし二人は、死体さえも寄り添えない。」
Will:「幻は幻に。役目を終えたる幻は、骸さえも残せない。」

I took that to mean that once Kanon is no longer needed, his body no longer exists. I thought he meant that Kanon never had a body to begin with and is some sort of illusion.

Hmm.. what other twilights did those two speak of where Kanon was involved... Hmm..

Well, there's the one from game 1 but it didn't speak of whether Kanon's corpse was involved or not:

「第1のゲーム、第五の晩。杭に胸を捧げし少年の最後。」
「幻は幻に。幻想の魔女と杭は、幻想しか貫けない。」

Probably because his disappearing corpse was not part of the illusion.
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Old 2010-11-14, 01:42   Link #18804
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
I'm not sure if this was mentioned before, but I just remembered something that hinted Beatrice's wound, back in EP3.

LAMBDA: "Because originally, you weren't even a witch, and at any time, I'll remind you what a truly shabby creature you were."

みすぼらしい存在


Well this might also refer to some kind of deformity, maybe she really is an intersex. The point is that this sentence hinted that Beatrice had something that made her look different than a normal human being.
And this would be the third time in that episode someone referring to Beatos true form as such. first virgilia when she thought she won, and Beato herself when she denied magic with red but had Battler cover his ears so as to not hear it and expose her pathetic form (paraphrasing from memory as i havent played ep 3 in so long)
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Old 2010-11-14, 02:22   Link #18805
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Originally Posted by Kylon99 View Post
Maybe the fall disfigured Yasu a lot? And Lion never suffered that disfigurement? So she is both deformed and intersexed leading her to believe no one would ever love her the way she was. Or maybe it's even worse, she's not even intersexed any more, it's just gone now. Thus that line in EP3 from Beatrice teasing Shannon about never having experienced sex with the FAT one. Ew.
As far as Shannon and Kanon go, we know they have all their limbs and they do not seem to have any facial deformity. So, if there's any problem, it should be somewhere in the torso. Now, Yasu said that the serious injuries caused by the fall made her unable to love. I don't see how any issue in the upper torso would make her think this way. So, I think it wouldn't be wrong to assume the problem is in her lower torso, or, to be more accurate, in her genitalia.

In addition to all of this, Lion doesn't seem to have any complexes over her body. Of course, one could say Lion has accepted her condition as intersexed - assuming she is. But, considering this would have no relevance to Yasu's issues, I don't see why intersexuality would come into play.

I'll agree that Yasu quite likely has some issue regarding her genitalia, but I'm not sold on the intersexuality deal. I'll agree it's a possibility, but I don't think that's the issue here.

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Spoiler for Snip:
Both are similar, but personally, I believe the use of the word illusion in both cases differs. In the first, we're told "The illusion that had fulfilled its task, didn't even leave a corpse." Which, I believe, can be take as the Kanon "role" got dropped after it fulfilled a certain purpose. However, the second one can be given different interpretations, at least, much easier than in the former. One interpretation could be that the illusion the stake pierced refers to Kanon, since he's just an illusion, another interpretation could be that the illusion refers to Kanon's death.

Anyway, my point is not about Kanon, but Shannon. EP7 basically hinted Shannon is an illusion as well. However, with the exception of EP1, we've always seen (what appears to be) her corpse. So, my question was, if Shannon is an illusion as well, why is it only she leaves a corpse? One possible answer I gave earlier was that, if both died without leaving corpses, then that'd have been far too blatant of a hint, whereas this happening to just one of them is, perhaps, a bit more subtle. However, I wonder if that's all there is to it. Even in EP6 we had the whole deal with Kanon disappearing without leaving a trace.
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Old 2010-11-14, 03:19   Link #18806
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I had this idea after rewatching the first couple opening videos. What is Maria is really the killer behind some of the later murders? I noticed every opening features her prominently, and she always seems angry or has blood on her or something. I could see it happening, where something surrounding Yasu prompts her to do it. She's been shown be really intelligent and strong-willed. It could also be a very tragic little girl who goes too far to help out her friend and idol's situation.
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Old 2010-11-14, 03:53   Link #18807
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Yea, right. Maria has been a large red herring from the very beginning; not to mention I can't possibly imagine how she could ever overpower most of the people she'd have to be responsible for killing.

On top of that, it'd be pretty against her character; she's fine with the killings only because she thinks they're magical murders that will take everyone to the golden land. If Beatrice needs her to shank Nanjo in the gut like a gangster, I think even Maria will realize something is up. She's not that gullible.

And technically, only the first opening shows Maria with blood or a non-happy expression.
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Old 2010-11-14, 04:03   Link #18808
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Originally Posted by Used Can View Post
As far as Shannon and Kanon go, we know they have all their limbs and they do not seem to have any facial deformity.

I'll agree that Yasu quite likely has some issue regarding her genitalia, but I'm not sold on the intersexuality deal. I'll agree it's a possibility, but I don't think that's the issue here.
Yah, unless Umineko is one of those 'specialty' R-18 doujins, I don't think the matter of whether Lion or Yasu is intersexed would figure into the story.

But then, I'm not sure just your average deformity or disfigurement would in Yasu's mind be enough for people not to like her. Surely she must have more imagination than to think people won't love her because she's ugly.

So, yah, I guess what's left is that she may be inability for physical love to equal emotional love?

With Shannon and Kanon though, maybe they don't have to share the same deformity as Yasu, if Yasu does have a very visible problem. They like Beatrice are wholly imagined characters, perhaps? (What I mean is, the Shannon and Kanon we know are characters of Yasu and thus are perfect, but what Yasu really did with a Shannon personality, if she did pretend to be her, may have been different in Rokkenjima Prime?)


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Anyway, my point is not about Kanon, but Shannon. EP7 basically hinted Shannon is an illusion as well. However, with the exception of EP1, we've always seen (what appears to be) her corpse. So, my question was, if Shannon is an illusion as well, why is it only she leaves a corpse? One possible answer I gave earlier was that, if both died without leaving corpses, then that'd have been far too blatant of a hint, whereas this happening to just one of them is, perhaps, a bit more subtle. However, I wonder if that's all there is to it. Even in EP6 we had the whole deal with Kanon disappearing without leaving a trace.
Some people theorized before EP7 happened that Shannon always wins over Kanon. So maybe when Shannon dies for real and leaves a corpse, this is the same as if Yasu dies in the story. So she's able to leave a corpse.
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Old 2010-11-14, 04:28   Link #18809
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With Shannon and Kanon though, maybe they don't have to share the same deformity as Yasu, if Yasu does have a very visible problem. They like Beatrice are wholly imagined characters, perhaps? (What I mean is, the Shannon and Kanon we know are characters of Yasu and thus are perfect, but what Yasu really did with a Shannon personality, if she did pretend to be her, may have been different in Rokkenjima Prime?)
I'd agree, but then we've have an even larger amount of uncertainty if anything like this was to be true. Battler looked at both of them, and they never seemed to have any easy-to-see deformity. Even if they are characters in a play, they're still written in a way in which their existence is questionable to the reader, and thus, I think we can say the body they show is the same as Yasu. Otherwise, this story is seriously withholding too much information from us.

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Some people theorized before EP7 happened that Shannon always wins over Kanon. So maybe when Shannon dies for real and leaves a corpse, this is the same as if Yasu dies in the story. So she's able to leave a corpse.
Well, Shannon did "die" in EP1's 1st Twilight. Of course, there's no Red for that. However, she no longer showed up, and the only one who remained was Kanon. So, I think Shannon doesn't necessarily always win.
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Old 2010-11-14, 06:20   Link #18810
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I've always believed that if Maria's nature is to prove that magic exists then she will go to any length to do so. Her apparent character as gullible has always been reversed in scenes and as the game stated, witches are great actors. There is plenty of evidence that would incriminate Maria at the very least as an accomplice and as I've said in other threads, Beatrice actively covers for her in the meta world.

Also like someone said, if Yasu's name was really Maria it would open up a lot possibilities in EP3. I haven't noticed any evidence yet but next time I read everything I'll try to see if theres more. Only one I could think of is EP4 red regarding EP1, where Beatrice makes a distinction with the possible Marias by saying that the one inside the room didn't kill them.
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Old 2010-11-14, 06:44   Link #18811
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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
Yea, right. Maria has been a large red herring from the very beginning; not to mention I can't possibly imagine how she could ever overpower most of the people she'd have to be responsible for killing.
I wouldn't be so sure; She has probably toughened up after all the times Rosa beat the crap out of her. Also, she is shown to be capable of weilding and loading a gun at the end of EP2(and is also strong enough to carry the bar of gold, in the anime). O_O
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Old 2010-11-14, 07:07   Link #18812
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Originally Posted by Keriaku View Post
I had this idea after rewatching the first couple opening videos. What is Maria is really the killer behind some of the later murders? I noticed every opening features her prominently, and she always seems angry or has blood on her or something. I could see it happening, where something surrounding Yasu prompts her to do it. She's been shown be really intelligent and strong-willed. It could also be a very tragic little girl who goes too far to help out her friend and idol's situation.
The opening sequences are not sufficient evidence to state someone is the culprit. It's a meta reason. It's equivalent to using red text as a hint when it's a supernatural force that defies Knox's 2nd. It's rolling the dice to decide who you want to implicate.

As I'm saying this George, Battler and Hideyoshi's shed scene from episode 1 appears in almost every opening. I find these things to be curious, but I don't use them as hints for my suspicions. I mostly use quotes stated in the text.

EDIT:

or as a better example there's the disappearing shrine that gets tons of attention in the opening sequences, but never gets anything important revealed about it except a TIP that says Kinzo used to hold a ceremony for a mirror there several times each year.

Though frankly Episode 7's opening made it pretty clear that they have less to do with the plot and more to do with hype. Some people were surprised Dlanor was a noshow in EP 7.

Last edited by Judoh; 2010-11-14 at 07:21.
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Old 2010-11-14, 07:26   Link #18813
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Well I do think Maria is suspicious...

She has the advantage of really not being aware of the difference between alive or dead. I guess I doubt she's responsible for any given murder but wouldn't be too surprised if she was responsible for the explosion or something along that line (at least on Prime).

I know that seems crazy but... In arc 1 it does feel like some of the murders only occured to prove Maria right in her arguments with Battler. Then in arc 2 the first twilight has the whole Happy Halloween Maria. In arc 3 she dies early and things went apparently astray. In arc 4 Maria is outright chosen as the heiress near the end (passing the test) and is seen having the freaky scene where Beato and her kills Rosa over and over. Then the letters are signed Maria when we know she didn't write them. We are also told that she can use all the furniture Beatrice can as well.

I guess all these things together makes me wonder if Beato's trying to send us a message about Maria.
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Old 2010-11-14, 07:31   Link #18814
Cao Ni Ma
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The opening sequences are not sufficient evidence to state someone is the culprit. It's a meta reason. It's equivalent to using red text as a hint when it's a supernatural force that defies Knox's 2nd. It's rolling the dice to decide who you want to implicate.

As I'm saying this George, Battler and Hideyoshi's shed scene from episode 1 appears in almost every opening. I find these things to be curious, but I don't use them as hints for my suspicions. I mostly use quotes stated in the text.
Although the intros are not evidence per se, they are clearly tools to find foreshadowing. After reading EP1 and watching the scenes in the OP again you could clearly see a lot of the scenes from that episode being replayed like "Beatrice" giving Maria an umbrella in the rose garden, Maria standing with "Beatrice" behind her murdering the 3 in the parlor. But if she never turned around to see what was happening why is her face bloody?

In EP2 we have a foreshadowing of Knox and Dyne applying to the game if it was fair. EP3 had Ange all over the place and she doesn't pop in till the very end.

Just like symbolism isn't a detective tool, but it still is useful foreshadowing and its used plenty of times in the genre. Maria is probably the character with most symbolism around her, from her name, her eyes, her clothing, all of them laden with it.
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Old 2010-11-14, 07:53   Link #18815
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Well I do think Maria is suspicious...

She has the advantage of really not being aware of the difference between alive or dead. I guess I doubt she's responsible for any given murder but wouldn't be too surprised if she was responsible for the explosion or something along that line (at least on Prime).

I know that seems crazy but... In arc 1 it does feel like some of the murders only occured to prove Maria right in her arguments with Battler. Then in arc 2 the first twilight has the whole Happy Halloween Maria. In arc 3 she dies early and things went apparently astray. In arc 4 Maria is outright chosen as the heiress near the end (passing the test) and is seen having the freaky scene where Beato and her kills Rosa over and over. Then the letters are signed Maria when we know she didn't write them. We are also told that she can use all the furniture Beatrice can as well.

I guess all these things together makes me wonder if Beato's trying to send us a message about Maria.
Even despite her weird view of life and death I can't see her actually killing anyone. Even when she has the perfect chance to episode 1 she's just outright stated not to have been the murderer. Then she dies consistently after episode 3. So she's limited there. She's certainly smart at least if she can understand what QED is.

With Maria though your going to end up with a mastermind style culprit like George and Kyrie due to some inconsistencies. Despite her low rank she can still order servants. Furthermore she probably can't reach things like chain locks and the chapel door for example. So she would need more accomplices than most people generally would. You also have to beleive she's being coy most of the time when secretly she's a genius who came up with that Beatrice's letter murder plan. It just breaks Occam's Razor on so many levels.

I like to entertain the idea that the sin is against her and that's Beatrice's motive sometimes though. I think there's something being hinted about her too. Just not that she's the culprit.
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Old 2010-11-14, 08:18   Link #18816
Cao Ni Ma
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The most suspicious persons trough the first two games are the servants, rosa, maria, natsuhi and mystery person x. If you take OP2s foreshadowing and start using Knox and Dyne during those games the list of probable culprits plunges. The only common thread in those two games by the end of it is that Maria is present in both cases where the hidden letter pop in and that she survives till the end.

So if I was meta-Beatrice and Im trying to cast doubt on who the culprit is, Im going to 'kill' the most likely culprits/accomplices. That doesn't mean they are actually dead if you could justify the red thats used some of them could still be alive.

This doesn't mean Maria is the culprit though, it could very well just be Yasu if you could justify her not being a servant. But if she was really dead by the time they found George's corpse laying next to her then that would cause problem with Nanjo's murderer.
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Old 2010-11-14, 08:25   Link #18817
Judoh
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There have been many more people who have found Jessica, Battler, Shannon, and Kanon suspicious since the early games then there have been for the ones you stated. And the mothers are generally put under serious suspicon.

To be fair though Jessica still doesn't have a backstory. But I like to think she's like Mion in the sense that she's so innocent that it would be boring if you gave her one.
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Old 2010-11-14, 08:25   Link #18818
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Just to clarify again I do not think she's directly responsible for any given murder, and I sorta doubt she's a mastermind either.

I'm more I guess trying to suggest a scenario along the following lines : On Rokkenjima prime the murders were all faked and part of a test for Yasu to determine who s/he'd chose as new heir among the cousin. Like in arc 4 Maria eventually won, and by that point no real murders had occurred. Being chosen as heiress, if it gets her the loyalty of servants + Yasu, I can sorta see how it could lead to a tragic end from that point on. If something along those lines is true, then I think it might be that various things could be messages about such a scenario. I guess if anything Maria is so eager to go to the golden land.

After arc 4 her roles is considerably diminished, but I believe that's an effect of her being joined again with Sakutarou as the Ange scene showed us. From that same point on there is no more Beatrice murders as well.

Edit: Might as well say ever since I saw Jan's theory about Nanjo being Beato-3's grandfather I've been mostly looking into how he could be the real culprit, totally opposing what I'm saying about Maria. Find it interesting that he is the very first character introduced and that we still haven't ever been privy to his thoughts (fitting knox perfectly for a culprit).

I guess also I'm much more eager to believe that Yasu is androgynous then being both gender at once. It would also fit a doll sorta well, as such thing as no gender.
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Old 2010-11-14, 08:42   Link #18819
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Notes on all Episodes

Well, since Jan-Poo kindly let me know I had posted in the wrong thread when discussing my notes on Umineko, I guess this is the right thread.

I've read up to the end of the episode 7 english patch, and I know there's spoilers in here that go beyond that point. I decided this topic is the best place to post this, especially since what I've done encompasses all the episodes, ergo it isn't suited to an individual episode's topic.

I have created a document through Google Docs that I am updating and maintaining on my own thus far. It is a collection of all the notes that I feel should be jotted down while I read through the whole series again (I started from Episode 1 again, obviously). Because of my impatience and willingness to learn more about Umineko, I had decided to read through episode 6 and document its hints before going onto episode 2, and did the same during writing down episode 3's notes, when the first 4( correct me if I'm wrong) chapters of episode 7 got translated.

Anyways, I have all the notes on episodes 1, 2, 6, and I'm writing down episode 3's still. I wrote what I could of episode 7's notes, as well. I will write down episode 4 after I finish with episode 3, and after 4 I will go onto 5, unless the full translation of 7 is out by then. Basically, newer episodes=higher priority.

tl;dr version: Here are all the notes I've made for the episodes thus far, including tea parties and ????s I've read thus far.

It is constantly getting updated whenever I choose to continue writing down notes. I do not recommend you read these notes unless you have read at least up to the end of the English translation of episode 7, it is full of spoilers and parts of it only make sense within context of the visual novels.

I hope the document is helpful in comparing notes between episodes and solving the greater mysteries the series holds. Any inaccuracies, typos and such pointed out will get fixed. I want this document to be as accurate and helpful as possible

Feel free to bookmark it or whatnot, if you feel that it should be useful to you in any capacity.
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Old 2010-11-14, 11:47   Link #18820
AuraTwilight
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Quote:
I've always believed that if Maria's nature is to prove that magic exists then she will go to any length to do so. Her apparent character as gullible has always been reversed in scenes and as the game stated, witches are great actors. There is plenty of evidence that would incriminate Maria at the very least as an accomplice and as I've said in other threads, Beatrice actively covers for her in the meta world.
An accomplice, sure. An active murderer? Not so much. Creepy and suspicious as she is, Maria is consistently portrayed as innocent and ignorant of what's really going on.

Quote:
I wouldn't be so sure; She has probably toughened up after all the times Rosa beat the crap out of her. Also, she is shown to be capable of weilding and loading a gun at the end of EP2(and is also strong enough to carry the bar of gold, in the anime). O_O
Except that was a fantasy scene. A pretty over the top one.

By the way, you guys, Maria is pretty much always under Battler's watch. Like, the only times she's not and people die is 1) The end of Episode 1, where she's stated in red not to be the killer, 2) EP2's ending, which is heavily implied to be a bomb, 3) EP3, where there is no way she impaled her own mother on the fence through physical and emotional inability and certainly didn't strangle herself and 4) EP4, where she seems to have swallowed poison. There is no way she could have shot and killed Nanjo and Kumasawa, Battler needed a ladder to get up there as it is, and he's tall as fuck.

Face it, there is no possible way Maria can be a murderer. She never has the oppurtunity.
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